Episode 26

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Published on:

2nd Oct 2025

EP 26 Wronging Rights

Episode 26: Wronging Rights – The JudgeMental Podcast

In this powerful episode, hosts Hugh and Christine dive deep into the complexities of family law, judicial accountability, and the controversial role of court-appointed experts. Joined by special guest Josh from Orange County, they explore the real-life impact of custodial evaluations, the financial and emotional toll on families, and the systemic issues that persist in the courts.

Key Topics:

Josh’s personal journey through the family court system and his fight for justice

The challenges and pitfalls of court-appointed experts and custodial evaluations

Why judicial transparency and accountability matter more than ever

The emotional and financial costs of protracted litigation

Honest reflections from two experienced lawyers on what needs to change in the system

Highlights:

Candid discussion on the “money grab” of expert appointments and the lack of scientific standards in evaluations

The human side of family law: trauma, resilience, and the struggle to keep fighting for what’s right

Open dialogue about the brokenness of the system and the importance of not giving up

Call to Action:

Have you experienced a custodial evaluation or have insights to share? The hosts are seeking stories, reports, and itemized bills—especially those involving Dr. Kelli Marvin, Kristen McCreary, or Dr. Kathryn Berla. Email your experiences to millertimelouisville@gmail.com or submit your story at judge-y.com.

Tune in for an honest, unfiltered conversation that aims to spark change and support those navigating the family court system. Don’t forget: you’re not alone, and your voice matters.

Listen now and join the conversation!

Transcript
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You are listening to The Judgemental Podcast.

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Speaker 5: We're Hugh and Christine, the

Minds Behind Judgy, the revolutionary app

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that empowers you to judge the judges.

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Speaker 2: It's pastime for

judicial accountability and

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transparency within the courts.

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Speaker 5: Prepare for sharp

insights, candid critiques, and

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unshakable honesty from two lawyers

determined to save the system.

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Speaker 6: We need some justice.

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Justice, my fine justice.

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And I wanna ring, be in public.

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I wanna ring, be in public crowd.

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Yeah.

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Christine: All right.

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Welcome to the Judgmental podcast.

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This is the after show, I guess, but

we are just gonna follow up on our

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interview from Josh from Orange County.

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So, Hugh, what'd you think?

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That's your first time meeting

you, I mean, meeting you?

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Yeah, meeting Josh.

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Hugh: Oh, I, I really

enjoyed hearing his story.

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I can't imagine what it

was like to go through,

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i, I'm glad ultimately the

judge made the right decision.

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I know that it's probably been

your experience as well, but in

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my, in my experience, challenging

someone that the court has appointed

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almost never bears any fruit.

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I think it's helpful that they have a

built in process for challenging it.

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And it's not something you're

just sort of doing you know, as

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part of the litigation strategy.

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I'm so happy to hear that another

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evaluator

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came in and would just say, this

was done all poorly for all of these

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reasons.

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And the court will look at it and

say, yep, I know that I appointed this

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person, but this is a faulty report and

I'm not going to give it any weight.

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Christine: Absolutely.

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Now what I will say, and obviously,

you know, when we have pro se people

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or litigants talking about their cases,

I am not a hundred percent sure if

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the 7 31 is actually built into the

system or if that's just their version

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of like, our version of an AOC form.

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I actually don't think.

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He was completely accurate that the

person comes from a roster on the 7 31.

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Okay.

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Alright.

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But now that you could

look at that two ways.

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Like what if the court just has

it built in that you can dispute a

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seven 30 evaluation, which is just

a guaranteed money grab for parents.

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So you could look at it both ways.

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Hugh: Yeah, no, I mean, but it's, I mean.

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It is that way anywhere.

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Even if you don't have that built in, you

know that, you know this is, this is an

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expert who's going to testify this way.

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They have a report, they're

gonna defend that report.

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You have to make a decision as a

litigant, whether or not you want to

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spend money to do some sort of a counter

report and look through everything.

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And sometimes when you're doing that.

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Boy, I have run into issues where I've

had a court appointed expert who will be

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very protected of his or her files and

will refuse to give copies to my expert.

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And I've had to, I've had to go to court

and get court, you know, get a court order

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that they turn over the things so that I,

that I can do, you know, my investigation

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and then

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you think, well.

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The court is gonna see their

behavior, that they're trying to

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protect things and, and all of this.

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And then you get to court and

you, you challenge it, you

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point out all of the

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errors, all the, the factual

problems with the report, all of

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the tests

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that were done incorrectly.

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And then

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the, the

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rebuttal reports given no weight.

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And, and the court's just so

often side with the person that

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they appoint on all these cases.

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Christine: Yeah, that's so infuriating,

and that's why I think I adamantly

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believe, I think if there's one

fundamental change, we get rid

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of these court appointed experts.

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Now, this is America, so you're allowed

to hire 27 experts if you want to,

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but they shouldn't be court appointed

because that appointment comes with

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immunity and that appointment comes

with, you're my buddy, you're my pal.

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And the judge, I've never read a custodial

evaluation that I thought was legit.

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For the purposes of actually being

science, yada, yada, you know what I mean?

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Hugh: Yeah.

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I mean, I've, I've seen some, I won't

say every single one has been bad.

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There, there were, there were a couple

evaluators that I used for a while.

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Generally, people that want

to do a good, thorough job and

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stay unbiased often to, they get

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attacked

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a lot and they don't stay

in the business too long.

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They mm-hmm.

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You know, the, a lot of these people

also have private practices, and

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if you are getting terrible, nasty

reviews every time you, you do an

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honest custodial evaluation, it's

gonna affect your private practice.

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It could affect your insurance rates and

a lot of people just don't wanna do it.

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But I,

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I, I

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will say that I've read ones

that are very thorough, where

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I, I've even had some that went

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against

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my client.

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And the clients said, well, I've learned a

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lot

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from this process.

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They've pointed out a lot of things that

I didn't realize I needed to work on.

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Like people that really engage

and the clients both feel

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like they were listened to.

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I, I have seen some of those.

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It's been few, very few, a very small

percentage, but I, I have seen those.

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Christine: Again, though, if you think,

and I'm just gonna agree, we can agree

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to disagree, but it's one thing if

you wanna go to therapy for the end

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of time and you wanna get evaluated

and you wanna read this and you wanna

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read your astrology and you wanna, you

know better yourself, and I'm all for

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bettering yourself, but the scientific.

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Component is where I just,

you know what I'm saying?

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Yep.

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Like when it comes to criminal

court and you're talking about

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ballistics or you're talking

about, you know, like knife wounds.

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There isn't a scientific measure

that, in my opinion, that can predict

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a person's ability to parent that

correlates with the best interest

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child for the court of law purposes.

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That's my point.

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No, and I think it is just a money grab.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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I, I

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mean.

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It, it's

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interesting to

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me that when you

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read

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these reports, they're

usually a collection of

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findings from

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very specific reports

that look for certain

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personality

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And the reports themselves refer

to the report, the final report or

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the interim report, which is where

a lot of cases end because people

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don't wanna pay for the full report.

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It's just a lot of reference to

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these

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individual indexes where they're

testing for one thing or another, and.

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You're correct.

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You don't have these, there's not a a a,

a written or oral test you can give to

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someone and it's gonna predict whether

or not you're gonna be a good parent.

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So what you're relying on is

these professionals to interpret,

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you know, read the tea leaves,

interpret these tests that are

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not necessarily

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made for this process.

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They're made for testing for

one or two specific things.

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So ultimately they've got

discretion in which tests they use.

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Which personality traits they're going to

test for, but then they're interpreting

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them because as you said, there's not one.

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Very specific test for it.

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Now, I,

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Christine: I now, hold,

hold on real quick though.

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Like, because you just said there's

not a test for a good parent,

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good parents, not the standard,

that's not the legal standard.

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So you could have two parents that aren't

quote unquote good, but we don't believe

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that the state should take those children.

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Now, I'm not talking, I mean, I,

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Hugh: I

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agree.

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I, I think I

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was saying, I was just

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talking in general generalities

instead of getting lost in the details

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as I, I tend to do, you're right.

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You're right, the standard is not good

parent or who's the best parent that is.

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That is an important distinction.

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Christine: Well, and another reason I

say that too, and I love like reading

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the tea leaves because essentially

I think that's what they're doing.

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Is, it's just like

they're just grasping at

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straws, throwing

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something to the wall to see what sticks.

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It's taking years off of a

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kid's life

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as far as like the money and the

kid's life in the interim while this

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custodial evaluation is happening.

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Hugh: So I, I, I disagree a

little bit from my experience.

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I don't think they're grasping straws

and throwing things against the wall.

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I think they

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really

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believe what they are saying

because I've seen how hard.

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They

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defend their work and it's either

that or they really believe in their

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defending their reputation no matter

what happened or, yeah, defending

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their reputation with the courts

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because

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they're gonna continue

to get the appointments.

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Now, as far as it being a money grab,

I think from the side of any court

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appointed professional, there is a

huge interest to do things in a certain

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way so that you can continue the money

coming and the appointments coming.

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And during my

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20

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years of practice in family court.

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I saw the cost of a custodial evaluation

go up by five to 10 fold, and it really

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didn't, there wasn't much of a difference

otherwise than you didn't spend nearly as

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much one-on-one time or actual in-person

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time

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with the evaluator.

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I, and I've seen plenty of, I've

seen evaluations where, you know,

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at, at one point we were suspicious

of a particular evaluator in town.

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And, you know, a group of

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attorneys

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got together and sort of anonymized some

of the reports and compared them and

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it

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was clear that they were just

based on a template with some

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names

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and facts and things changed.

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And I mean, that, that was appalling.

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But I,

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I think

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from, from,

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Christine: is that person

still on evaluator?

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You don't have to say the name.

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Hugh: No.

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Okay.

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There.

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I I, I think from a judge's point

of view, right, when you have

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the best interest standard, there

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is this

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list of things you have to have

considered and you've been in court.

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You know how limited the time that we

get in trial, I mean, one of the things.

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That Josh was talking about that

kind of blew my mind was that this

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evaluator testified for three days,

which means the judge just had a rolling

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amount of time and was gonna just

keep going until the case was done.

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That has never been my experience

in any court I've ever practiced,

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and that's, that's pretty amazing

that they have that kind of time.

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Most of the time you don't, and

most of the time the litigants.

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Are going to present, you know, the

most pressing, the most what, what

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they consider to be the flashiest,

most influential pieces of evidence.

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But from a court, you gotta

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look at a lot

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of factors

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under the

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best interest.

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I can understand the inclination to

say, well, you know, if I hired this

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person to do this huge report, I

can, I can just take notice of this

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report and accept it into the record.

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And it makes all of these

factual findings that

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I don't

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have to actually get from the parties.

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I, I don't have to, I don't have

to make people prove their case.

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It does my work for me.

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That's, it's not a money grab that's

getting, getting, you know, the judges

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aren't getting paid more from doing

them, but they are getting Well, I

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Christine: understand.

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Stay in the inclination of being

lazy and delegating your job.

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I mean, I wanna do that.

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That's what everyone wants to do.

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That's the American dream.

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But it, you know, I just,

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I can't,

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sometimes it's like, it's astonishing

to me that some of the people, I'm

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not naming the names that we use

as FOCs gals, custodial evaluators.

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I want every single attorney

listening and every judge a listening.

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I want you to imagine that that is

your child, your children, or your

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best friend's, child or children.

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And if you think they have

the wherewithal and the

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skills

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to make decisions, then you need

to immediately, and I wanna be

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clear immediately, give up your

law license and start bartending

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and make me a good cocktail.

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I'll tip you well because you don't have

enough sense to come in out of the rain.

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Hugh: I, I think.

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I, I mean, to, from my point of view, I'm

trying to, I'm trying to create an analogy

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in another part of law where if I'm

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going to

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sue you, right?

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And I'm gonna accuse you of something,

and this is one of the things that was

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impactful

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from Josh's

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story to

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me, because

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I've

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seen it happen.

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I've, I've represented, you know,

wealthy people in high asset cases

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and oftentimes represented the

wage earner or the, the person that

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had the

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control of the finances.

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It doesn't matter who's

suing whom in civil court.

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If I'm making allegations against

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you,

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what are the chances I'm gonna have

a judge appoint someone to prove

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my case and make you pay for it?

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That would never happen.

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Never happen.

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Why is it happen in family court

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if one party's going to,

I think that's, yeah.

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And then why do they

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get to

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keep doing it?

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Christine: Yep.

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And it's like, well another analogy

when he was saying that, I remember,

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and you don't know this, but people

that watch, oh, you may, I don't think

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you do, but Real Housewives of Atlanta

they're, they were going to family

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court and there's an attorney there that

was like, you're gonna go in front of

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a judge with a Birkin, like you drive

a, you, you carry a bag that's nicer

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than their car, they're gonna hate you.

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And I do think that there is some

resentment from these judges Oh yeah.

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Who are really, really,

really high earners.

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And so they're just like, well, whatever.

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You've got it.

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But I mean, my gosh.

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And Hugh I know you, you would

sell your house for your children.

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Yeah.

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No question.

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Oh, yeah.

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To fight for your kids.

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Hugh: Oh,

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yeah.

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No, no, no.

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Every, everything that he said

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was like,

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yep.

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That's, I mean, that's,

what else are you gonna do?

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And, you know, that's what lots

of people are doing because

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that's what you do for your kids.

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Mm-hmm.

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Like you go live on the street.

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I've

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actually

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had people that were living

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out of

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their car because they've

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sold

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everything in, in the litigation process.

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And these are people that had.

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You know,

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$700,000

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house and it was just to keep

it going, to keep that fight up.

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'cause they wouldn't give up

on, you know, parenting their

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kids and that, that happens.

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But I, I've also experienced, as

you were just describing when,

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so,

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so I think this is common among

people, not just judges, that if, if

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you make $50,000 a year, you think

someone making a hundred thousand

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dollars a year just must have tons

of money all, all over the place.

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Likewise, you reach six figures.

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You look at people earning seven

figures and just think, oh.

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They could

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just pay for anything

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and

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everything, and you don't account for

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the

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fact that lifestyles eat up the money and

there's just, you know, it, it doesn't

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necessarily

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mean you just have mountains of cash

sitting around, but that, there's

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just this impression that people have.

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And man, that's such a successful

tactic in family court.

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You

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go in

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and.

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Even if, I mean, even if it,

it, it benefited the family,

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it's never been an issue.

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No one has done anything wrong

with any money or whatever.

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The first thing you do, if you have

the financially disadvantaged party

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is you go in and it's like, oh, look

at all this money he or she makes over

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there and like all of this, and you

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set

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the tone for the judge to

resent it and so that you

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get granted attorney's fees or they

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have to pay for everything

as it goes along.

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And it, I mean, you see it every day.

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In

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fact, probably, I

guarantee if you went, sat

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in,

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sat in court in a motion hour and one day,

you'd see it multiple times because it's

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successful and it stinks, but it works.

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Christine: Oh, yep.

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I saw it yesterday when

I was in motion hour.

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It was like, you know, just some

medical bills for something.

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And not to say just some medical bills,

but that's where it gets like super

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weird and I'm like watching me in real

time and like, obviously we've said this

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before, listeners, I was by, by no means.

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The high asset attorney, I did not

practice nearly as long as Hugh.

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I am not, I would consider myself

more knowledgeable in criminal law

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than family law, despite the fact

I practiced there for 10 years.

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But you, you name a case, you had a fact

pattern like that over 20 years, period.

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End of stories, like you've seen it all.

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You know what I mean?

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And so going, it's very different.

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I guess from my perspective,

what I saw, because I didn't do

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protracted litigation high asset

litigation and divorces very often

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because

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I didn't, you need to have a firm that

has two paralegals and three other

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attorneys that can cover, which you had.

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Hugh: Oh, oh yeah.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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You, you have to have a certain type

of team to, to be able to do it.

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Christine: And there's nothing

wrong with that, but I guess the

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point at all, like you need that.

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But the point I'm trying to make is

like watching in real time, just like

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there are so many like little moving

pieces and then like one big machine

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where attorneys, we have to represent

our clients to our best interest.

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That's right.

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We don't lie, but we have to represent

our clients to the best interest.

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And if you have judges that are

gonna allow these nonsensical

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arguments to success.

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They're made in good faith.

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I mean, it's really a struggle

is what I'm trying to say.

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Hugh: No, I agree.

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And when, when I began practicing one

thing that was common and I, I never

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thought it was good business practice.

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In fact, it burned me quite a few

times, but it was pretty regular

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that a,

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People would come speak to me.

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They didn't have a lot of money

to pay for services, and they had

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been told by the first three people

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they

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interviewed that, oh,

don't worry about it.

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I'll get, I'll make the other side pay.

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And

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you know, I, so I, I, I, of course

represented people that were

412

:

financially disadvantaged all the time.

413

:

Oh yeah.

414

:

Even toward the latter part of my career.

415

:

And,

416

:

I always made people pay me.

417

:

I never said that it's a guarantee

the other side's going to pay, but

418

:

when you have a certain person come

419

:

in,

420

:

doesn't matter which side it's on.

421

:

If your person's

422

:

financially

423

:

dis disadvantaged and the other side

just is sitting on a mountain of

424

:

cash,

425

:

you can just see 10 arguments to

make them pay for everything and

426

:

you know that it's gonna be okay.

427

:

You know that just,

428

:

and, and

429

:

as he, you know,

430

:

as Josh

431

:

said in his interview, they were trying

to bankrupt him to make him stop.

432

:

And that's a real

433

:

tactic.

434

:

It happens all the time.

435

:

You make them pay to keep fighting

and sometimes it's used for good.

436

:

Sometimes

437

:

it's, you know, judges.

438

:

I've seen judges do it when they

suspect or they, they kind of know,

439

:

but can't,

440

:

you know, haven't had a

hearing, can't make a finding

441

:

that one parent is causing all of the

442

:

litigation.

443

:

And it's not really about any major thing.

444

:

Like, it sounds like may have

happened, at least the, the

445

:

Josh feels happened to his case.

446

:

We

447

:

haven't

448

:

spoken to both sides, so I don't wanna

say that's what happened in this case,

449

:

but it, you know, we, we've seen that as

450

:

practitioners,

451

:

you see that happen.

452

:

One side will be.

453

:

Just is never going to let something go.

454

:

They're gonna keep making allegations.

455

:

They're just never going to have

a good co-parenting relationship.

456

:

I have seen judges be very smart

in making the person that's doing

457

:

that pay for everything and said,

if you wanna keep doing this,

458

:

you're going to keep paying for it.

459

:

And maybe if it, if you really are proved

right, I can allocate these things.

460

:

But you know, sometimes

I've seen it, I've seen it.

461

:

Being used to sort of calm

462

:

down

463

:

the level of, of litigation.

464

:

But certainly practitioners

use it all the time.

465

:

Just, we're just gonna

it this So expensive.

466

:

Yeah.

467

:

Discovery tactics.

468

:

You know, somebody

doesn't have much money.

469

:

They're not paying, they

haven't paid a big retainer.

470

:

They, they hired an attorney, you

know, doesn't charge much and you

471

:

just file a bunch of discovery

so that they sort of cave.

472

:

I mean, it's just, that's just litigation.

473

:

That's how

474

:

it's been and that's how it

475

:

is

476

:

in all, all types of

477

:

Christine: Well, two things there.

478

:

I

479

:

actually

480

:

don't think that judges try to utilize

money to get a resolution though, in

481

:

other areas of the law and hear me out.

482

:

Like I don't think, I think family

court like kind of encourages

483

:

conflict and there's the money

component to it, like in.

484

:

Criminal court.

485

:

I don't think that the

judge is encouraging the

486

:

conflict, if that makes sense.

487

:

And it's not like the criminal

attorney makes more money if it goes

488

:

on longer or the prosecutor makes

more money if it goes on longer.

489

:

And in civil court, I don't necessarily

think that there is this frustration

490

:

that comes with filing motions like

we know our family court judges

491

:

will be like, seriously, Hugh, you

back here again, this case again?

492

:

Oh, I encountered that

493

:

Hugh: in civil court.

494

:

Are you kidding?

495

:

I, I never did.

496

:

I would file, but I didn't

do much file motions.

497

:

Yeah, the,

498

:

and I didn't do a whole lot,

but when I did, you could tell

499

:

that there was just sort of this

500

:

unwritten

501

:

rule that you don't do this or do that.

502

:

And

503

:

I would file motions really,

504

:

because

505

:

my duty is to

506

:

go

507

:

and officially ask for this.

508

:

And I need to represent my clients.

509

:

I want it on paper.

510

:

I want the record to show that

I tried this, I followed this

511

:

rule, I went through this.

512

:

Yeah.

513

:

And a lot of people, you know,

it's a lot more, less formal than

514

:

that, and they'll just call each

other and get these things done.

515

:

I

516

:

would

517

:

file it and people would

518

:

lose

519

:

their minds.

520

:

I've, I've had people threaten

sanctions because I filed.

521

:

Motions that were you know, motions to

dispose of part of the record because I

522

:

met the requirements for it and I could

dispose of a big part of the, the case

523

:

that the person was coming after my client

in a civil case, and they would, oh my

524

:

God, I can't believe you would do this.

525

:

Like, I've violated some common courtesy.

526

:

So I, I,

527

:

I've

528

:

definitely seen people react that way to

pa, you know, to filing regular motions.

529

:

But you're right, I mean.

530

:

Family law

531

:

is different.

532

:

It's evolving.

533

:

I mean, usually in a case in civil

court, you have a cause of action.

534

:

The cause of action has already

happened and it's not evolving.

535

:

Now, there could be some contract

disputes where there are things going on.

536

:

You might need injunctions to

keep things from getting worse.

537

:

So it's not that they never evolve, but

you guarantee that in family law, things

538

:

are evolving and changing all the time.

539

:

Mm-hmm.

540

:

In every single case.

541

:

Christine: Yeah, I mean,

that's a good point.

542

:

And that's why, you know, I, I, I

don't know what the answer of the

543

:

answer to fixing the problems in

family court is above my pay grade.

544

:

Mm-hmm.

545

:

I just know that this isn't

working, and I do think that we

546

:

are getting progressively worse.

547

:

Like there was one thing during the

interview with Josh where you were

548

:

like, there's a lot of attorneys

out there, and I say that too.

549

:

I'm not trying to say

that in any way to make.

550

:

Any assumption, like I'm like, there's so

many attorneys that I talk to that don't

551

:

like these judges, that don't like, and

by like I mean like the procedures and

552

:

like the way things are going, they don't

believe in these custodial evaluators.

553

:

But the reality is, when I

was in Orange County, it was.

554

:

It was just different.

555

:

It was this feel, and I think

they drove you out of family law.

556

:

They drove, I went sprinting into the

wall like a fucking character in a

557

:

cartoon to get out of family court with

you know, no intention of coming back.

558

:

And you were, I'm talking to people

all the time that are just like,

559

:

you know, I can't do this anymore.

560

:

And I think what happens when

the system keeps growing and

561

:

growing like it is in college.

562

:

California and Colorado is they get rid of

all the attorneys that really give a damn.

563

:

Hugh: Yeah.

564

:

I, I mean, there are a lot of people,

and I, I'm not gonna name names.

565

:

There are people that well, hell, it's,

it's a lot of the people that you and

566

:

I know in common and that, that that

567

:

practice

568

:

in family law in Kentucky, I've

had conversations with them that,

569

:

you know, things are broken.

570

:

I mean, it's

571

:

regularly accepted.

572

:

People still have to keep.

573

:

Pr.

574

:

I mean that's

575

:

what they do for a living.

576

:

They have to keep working

within the system.

577

:

I think

578

:

there is a

579

:

difference between recognizing

580

:

that it's

581

:

broken and some are actively

wanting to keep it broken

582

:

' cause

583

:

it benefits them while others are.

584

:

Not actively working to change

things because that would actually

585

:

hurt, you know, hurt their business.

586

:

And they

587

:

have a business and they have clients

that they have to, you know, that there's

588

:

all these, there's all of these competing

589

:

interests

590

:

there from representing your

client, not making the judge angry

591

:

for if you have partners in your

592

:

business

593

:

not doing something

that harms the business.

594

:

So, I mean, I, I can kind of get

that, but in my experience is

595

:

that the.

596

:

The, the most of the people that

I litigated against regularly,

597

:

we had very frank conversations

about the problems and how,

598

:

how things

599

:

work from custodial evaluators to, you

know, how it's gonna go in this division.

600

:

It's just openly accepted.

601

:

But I

602

:

think

603

:

a lot of litigators who, you

know, they face, at least I

604

:

did the

605

:

way, the way they worked when I

practiced it was my job to figure out

606

:

where those

607

:

problems were and to navigate them.

608

:

So when I'm representing my client, it's

609

:

not

610

:

to solve the problem, it's

to keep my client from being

611

:

harmed

612

:

by that problem.

613

:

And I think that that's, if you're

still regularly engaged in the practice,

614

:

that's that's what you have to do.

615

:

It's sort of your ethical duty, and

that's a separate from whether or not they

616

:

actually accept that there is a problem.

617

:

Christine: Yeah, I feel

like I was rude there.

618

:

I was just scrolling 'cause we

got this really profound question.

619

:

I meant to screenshot

it and send it to you.

620

:

I can't find it 'cause we get so many.

621

:

But it

622

:

was

623

:

asking exactly what you're saying, like

how do people continue to keep doing this?

624

:

And you know, the reality is.

625

:

You know, I mean, when I

left, I struggled financially.

626

:

I just couldn't do it anymore.

627

:

But people, this is how you

know we're in student loans.

628

:

A lot of people in family court

have significant student loans.

629

:

This is the area of law that they know.

630

:

I mean, you don't just

quit your job because.

631

:

You want to, you know what I'm saying?

632

:

No.

633

:

And so it's a really hard dichotomy

and I do, you know, I go back and

634

:

forth with lawyers, as you know.

635

:

I'm currently on a break

right now from family lawyers.

636

:

And just to be clear, that's

because I'm not giving litigants.

637

:

They can't call me in tram dump

because I'm not a therapist.

638

:

I don't have anywhere to store it.

639

:

And I'm sick and tired of a lot of

the lawyers calling me to trauma dump.

640

:

I don't have anywhere to store it.

641

:

They need to fight these

battles themselves.

642

:

And they're lawyers.

643

:

They're stronger than litigants.

644

:

In the capacity of this, this,

of solving problem arena.

645

:

Addressing

646

:

Hugh: it.

647

:

Yeah.

648

:

No.

649

:

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

650

:

But I digress.

651

:

But so it's just like, I don't

know what the answer is, but

652

:

it's getting progressively worse.

653

:

And I'm not trying to like blow a whistle,

but I felt like the other day when we

654

:

were recording, you were like, holy moly.

655

:

Like you were almost like,

yeah, this is really bad.

656

:

Like some of the things

that they're moving towards.

657

:

Hugh: Yeah, I know that's

what, that's what scares me.

658

:

And it's, it's hard to navigate how I want

659

:

to keep

660

:

fighting this fight,

661

:

you know,

662

:

and not make things, make things worse.

663

:

And I think the, the way to do,

it's just to keep calling it out.

664

:

To say mm-hmm.

665

:

In reaction to this, you

shouldn't make matters worse.

666

:

You should actually work to

667

:

fix the problem

668

:

to those that are actually listening and

paying attention to, to those of us out

669

:

here that are pointing out the problems.

670

:

I wanna say also though, there's,

there's another part to the answer,

671

:

I think to that, that question

from, you know, from a viewer,

672

:

I think

673

:

there are

674

:

people that

675

:

really

676

:

want to

677

:

help their clients.

678

:

I think people get into family law.

679

:

You don't, when you're in law school.

680

:

You sample a lot of

different types of law.

681

:

There's something

different about family law.

682

:

It is not just making sure forms

are filled out correct correctly,

683

:

or some laws are complied with.

684

:

It is not

685

:

litigation

686

:

just for the game of litigation.

687

:

People gen generally get into

688

:

family law if, if

689

:

it's, if it's the intentional way

they started their journey and they

690

:

wanna be a career family lawyer

because it appeals to them because

691

:

there is the human side to it.

692

:

That doesn't exist in

a lot of other places.

693

:

So I think there are.

694

:

A lot of people that are

still out there doing

695

:

it, they're

696

:

doing it in a broken system and they're

fighting as hard as they can for

697

:

their clients and they still believe

that they're doing, you know, they're

698

:

doing

699

:

their duty for their clients, but

they, like I said, you have to

700

:

navigate the problems where they are.

701

:

Christine: Yep.

702

:

Hugh: Yeah, so I, I mean, I think

703

:

that's,

704

:

that's a big part of it.

705

:

There are people who just,

I mean, it eats them alive.

706

:

The number of people I know that are

popping pills to deal with the stress

707

:

of representing their clients because

we take that trauma home as attorneys.

708

:

Mm-hmm.

709

:

It was pretty staggering to me.

710

:

Rough.

711

:

Yeah.

712

:

It's pretty widespread.

713

:

Christine: It's really rough and for

people listening and if Hugh wants

714

:

to cut this out, but there is this

constant, we have a lot of conversations,

715

:

obviously behind the scenes, but you

know, in particular in talking to

716

:

Hugh High asset attorney, there are

several cases that he talks about.

717

:

Almost once a week that

have traumatized him.

718

:

Oh yeah.

719

:

That he still carries.

720

:

Or

721

:

cases

722

:

where he begged people like,

I will represent you for free.

723

:

Yes.

724

:

This issue is wrong.

725

:

Like, and not to name names

or anything like that.

726

:

And there are cases, I still have

clients that reach out and yeah, I mean

727

:

the trauma, you know, the trauma of.

728

:

Just, and you want, you know, when

I was working for my clients too,

729

:

there was so much good and resolve

that I was able to get, and I do

730

:

miss practicing law immensely.

731

:

So it is a catch 22.

732

:

You know, I'm constantly, you know,

every, this isn't linear, this is

733

:

complicated, and we constantly kind of

go through these circles or these up

734

:

and downs of like what the answer is.

735

:

Hugh: Yeah.

736

:

No, that's right.

737

:

Yeah.

738

:

And you're right about the

ones I keep coming back to,

739

:

they are the ones that I just.

740

:

I absolutely hate what

happened to the family.

741

:

And you're right, there were, there were,

742

:

Christine: and they keep you up at night.

743

:

A couple, a couple times where

744

:

Hugh: I said, I will take

this too, all the way to the

745

:

end if you have no money, no

746

:

big deal.

747

:

I want, I want to do this.

748

:

Mm-hmm.

749

:

This

750

:

right

751

:

needs to be wronged.

752

:

I mean, wrong needs to be righted.

753

:

I wanna address this in

justice, please let me do it.

754

:

And sometimes people are just too

fatigued and just like, no, I give up

755

:

and they

756

:

walk away and you just think.

757

:

How, you know, some laziness

or some just, oh gosh.

758

:

Some of them I know were just

heirs, that were just, they were

759

:

just

760

:

political and they were, they

were so easily correctable,

761

:

but they, they, mm-hmm.

762

:

They occurred at the end of such a

long, expensive battle that people

763

:

just give up and they give up.

764

:

Yep.

765

:

And they walk away from.

766

:

Their rights, their property,

all kinds of things.

767

:

Usually.

768

:

I

769

:

mean, the ones that always, that haunt me,

that I talk about are always kids cases.

770

:

It's, you know, there's not a single case

that I can even think of that involve

771

:

pieces of property that, you know, was

super impactful, that went a certain way.

772

:

But the, the

773

:

kids

774

:

stuff, it's.

775

:

Yeah, there's, there's quite

a few of 'em I won't get over.

776

:

Yeah, that's right.

777

:

Christine: And it is you,

it bothers you still to this

778

:

day.

779

:

And

780

:

it's like, when I have people,

the other hard thing is

781

:

it's hard

782

:

to take this hat off.

783

:

Right?

784

:

This lawyer hat off.

785

:

And so we get all these messages and you

know, I do all, most of our social media.

786

:

All of our social media and like, just

in this conversation, it's like, help

787

:

me in Georgia, help me in, you know.

788

:

And you wanna put, even talking to

Josh, you wanna put your lawyer hat on?

789

:

Oh yeah.

790

:

And be a lawyer.

791

:

Oh yeah.

792

:

But you, it's, you can't do that anymore

793

:

because you

794

:

just can't do that anymore.

795

:

And so it's a really

weird place to navigate.

796

:

And I do wanna hit on one thing that we're

gonna get when you're listening to this

797

:

we're gonna get hate and we already know.

798

:

So.

799

:

Not in hate because we chose to

800

:

have

801

:

some people on and not other people.

802

:

Yo, we are very grassroots.

803

:

We're trying to get judgy going.

804

:

We can't have everyone on to

just tell their stories always.

805

:

It would be.

806

:

We wouldn't sleep.

807

:

There's not enough hours in the day.

808

:

Hugh: No.

809

:

Christine: And on the flip side of

that, I want you to be clear, we can't

810

:

vet everyone thoroughly that we have

on or that we talk to or that I comment

811

:

on, on social media because spoiler

alert, y'all don't have cameras in

812

:

your courtrooms for the most part.

813

:

And vetting would involve talking

to the other party extensively.

814

:

So we just need

815

:

to,

816

:

you know, I wanna be

clear on this podcast.

817

:

We are having conversations, we are

opening dialogue if we like something on

818

:

social media or if we have someone on, we

are not a blanket adoption of everything

819

:

that that person said or didn't say.

820

:

And I know we've only had two guests

on, but if we open this up and I don't

821

:

know if there's anything you wanna

add or if I said that clear enough.

822

:

Hugh: No, I, I think that

that's, that's pretty clear.

823

:

I, I think we, we've.

824

:

The number of people that have

reached out, we could just do a show

825

:

that's interviews and do multiples

826

:

every single day and

827

:

still not get to get to

half of 'em or 10th of them.

828

:

Yeah.

829

:

You know, part of what we're trying to

do isn't necessarily telling stories.

830

:

I

831

:

think that there have been certain

aspects, you know, people that we have,

832

:

people that we have scheduled that are

gonna come on, people that, you know.

833

:

There's something that

we're already talking about.

834

:

It's already part of a discussion.

835

:

The custodial evaluation element

of Josh's case was the focus,

836

:

and

837

:

that's something that

838

:

is, is a big problem

839

:

that we see here in Kentucky.

840

:

It

841

:

was,

842

:

it's fascinating to figure out

exactly what's happening in

843

:

another

844

:

state where it's, where

it's the same, where it's

845

:

different.

846

:

And there were just a few elements

of his case actually, not just a few.

847

:

There are a lot of elements in

his case that you and I have seen.

848

:

Many times in

849

:

our practice

850

:

that

851

:

people are telling us about

every single day, and it just

852

:

seemed very representative.

853

:

Plus,

854

:

you don't get a chance to talk to

someone who's come out of it and

855

:

challenged, you know, what's going on

856

:

in the

857

:

system.

858

:

And he was only able

to do it because he was

859

:

able

860

:

to access capital

861

:

to

862

:

spend hundreds of thousands of

dollars to do it most, you know?

863

:

Mm-hmm.

864

:

Great, great, great.

865

:

Majority of people would've

had to have given up.

866

:

And just, yep.

867

:

Just walked away.

868

:

And, and, and he

869

:

was able

870

:

to do it because he was fortunate

enough to have a good job

871

:

and, and access to take loans.

872

:

So I, I don't know.

873

:

And

874

:

Christine: Faye, and I think his,

his resolve at the end where he Yeah.

875

:

Begs everyone just keep going.

876

:

I mean, it was like, it's emotional.

877

:

Hugh: Oh yeah.

878

:

Yeah.

879

:

That absolutely.

880

:

And I just, I, you know, not been

through it, but I've got kids and

881

:

I know that, I don't even like to

882

:

think

883

:

about if I were in that position.

884

:

I mean, it's, it's really I, I'm amazed

that people handle it as well as they do.

885

:

But talk

886

:

about a dark place.

887

:

Yeah.

888

:

Christine: same z And so we're gonna

keep grinding and talking to people.

889

:

We really want, right now, I am

doing in particular or we are, but

890

:

like we want custodial evaluations

or your state's equivalent.

891

:

We would like evaluations or reports or

any of that that have been done by Dr.

892

:

Kelli Marvin or Kristen McCreary, or Dr.

893

:

Kathryn Berla We want bills from

custodial evaluations or the equivalent

894

:

in your state itemized bills.

895

:

Any kind of bill, please email them.

896

:

It's Miller time Louisville at gmail.

897

:

Always submit your stories to judge y.com.

898

:

You got any profound statements

after that interview?

899

:

Hugh: No, I, I mean, what

can I say that he didn't say?

900

:

Yeah, just don't give up if you're

901

:

stuck in the system.

902

:

Don't give up.

903

:

Mm-hmm.

904

:

Keep fighting.

905

:

Christine: And we we're trying to open

these conversations so everybody you

906

:

know can see that you're not crazy.

907

:

The system is, I guess.

908

:

Hugh: Yep.

909

:

Well said.

910

:

All right.

911

:

Thanks everybody.

912

:

Peace.

913

:

Speaker 7: Next call.

914

:

We need some

915

:

Speaker 8: justice, justice, justice.

916

:

And I wanna ring bells in public.

917

:

I wanna ring bes in public nor crowd.

918

:

Yeah, but I To the fo Yeah.

919

:

I To the fo Yeah.

920

:

Speaker 9: I to the fo fo

921

:

teaser.

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About the Podcast

The JudgeMental Podcast
From the Creators of Judge-y
The JudgeMental Podcast features two attorneys, Hugh and Christine, who bring over three decades of combined litigation experience to the mic. Now venturing into a bold new initiative—"Judge-y", a website and soon-to-be app—they aim to give lawyers and litigants a platform to evaluate judges and promote accountability within the judiciary.

About your host

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Hugh Barrow