EP 27 If you think that's bad ...
The JudgeMental Podcast – EP 27: "If you think that's bad ..."
Hosts: Hugh & Christine
Episode Summary:
Hugh and Christine, the minds behind Judge-y, discuss judicial accountability, transparency, and the latest drama in the courts.
The episode centers on a recent motion to recuse Judge Santry in Jefferson County, sparked by her attendance at a partisan campaign event and the resulting appearance of bias.
The hosts break down the legal and ethical implications, including the judge’s defensive response, the role of the guardian ad litem, and the standards for judicial impartiality in Kentucky.
They reflect on the changing landscape of the local legal community, the influx of new attorneys, and the challenges facing both lawyers and litigants in family court.
The conversation expands to the broader issues of court appointments, the financial incentives for GALs and FOCs, and the need for reform in how children are represented in divorce cases.
Hugh and Christine share personal anecdotes about courtroom dynamics, the impact of political associations on judicial perception, and the importance of keeping the judiciary nonpartisan.
The episode wraps up with a call for listeners to submit their stories and stay tuned for updates on the Judge-y app.
Key Topics:
Motion to recuse Judge Santry: facts, reactions, and legal standards
The appearance of bias and judicial ethics
The role and compensation of GALs and FOCs in Kentucky
The evolving legal community post-pandemic
Gender dynamics and professionalism in the courtroom
The dangers of politicizing the judiciary
Calls for transparency, reform, and community engagement
Notable Quotes:
“The appearance of a conflict is enough.”
“Judges have to be impartial and nonpartisan.”
“Children do not need an hourly rate attorney in their parents’ divorce.”
“The judiciary is supposed to be non-political.”
Connect with Judgy:
Submit your stories at Judge-y.com
Follow on YouTube and Instagram: @judgingthejudges, @judge-y
Christine: @KentuckyChristine
Thank you for listening! Stay tuned for app updates and more candid conversations about the legal system.
Transcript
You are listening to The Judgemental Podcast.
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:Speaker 3: We're Hugh and Christine, the
Minds Behind Judgy, the revolutionary app
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:that empowers you to judge the judges.
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:Speaker 2: It's pastime for
judicial accountability and
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:transparency within the courts.
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:Speaker 3: Prepare for sharp
insights, candid critiques, and
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:unshakable honesty from two lawyers
determined to save the system.
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:Speaker 4: We need some justice.
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:Justice, my fine justice.
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:And I wanna ring, be in public.
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:I wanna ring, be in public crowd.
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:Yeah.
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:Christine: Are not gonna
believe what I saw on Monday.
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:An attorney actually had the
gall to file a motion to recuse
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:Hugh: in Jefferson County.
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:Christine: Yep.
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:In Shelley's courtroom, Judge Santry.
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:Hugh: Okay, hang on, hang on.
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:Yep.
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:We are recording.
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:Okay.
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:Let's run with it.
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:Awesome.,
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:Wow.
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:What attorney I.
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:Christine: It was Abigail Green and it
was based on the fact that Judge Santry
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:had been to a partisan campaign event
for someone that works at a law firm.
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:I didn't really practice with her.
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:I think you know her she's running
for state rep and Shelley kind of had
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:her arm, or the candidate had her arm
around Shelley and there was like an
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:Instagram post that was like, thank
you for everyone for your support.
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:Hugh: Interesting.
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:Okay.
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:First of all, that's kind of.
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:gutsy for Abby.
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:I think Abby's involved in a whole lot
of court appointed things, or she used
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:to be, so that's, that's surprising.
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:Good for her.
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:What were the allegations related to how
the campaign event could affect the case?
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:Or is it just looking objective?
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:Christine: Well, I think it
was the appearance of bias, and
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:it was the litigant that found
this according to the motion.
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:And it essentially said, I was shocked
because I know judges aren't allowed
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:to get involved in political things.
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:Partisan political things, obviously.
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:And so pursuant to the motion, it.
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:Indicated that undersigned, so that
would've been Abby Green called the Ethics
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:Hotline, and the ethics hotline said that
she should file the motion to recuse.
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:But I will tell you right now, I have
never seen Judge Ry that defensive.
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:Hugh: Oh, wow.
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:Defensive of the event or just in,
in being called, you know, her, her
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:neutrality or objectivity called into
question, or what was she defensive about?
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:Christine: I think all of the above.
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:But you know, and I, I did a little
thing on my TikTok about this, and I
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:will say before we get into how, kind
of what she said on the record, which
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:I think frankly made it so much worse
and she needs to recuse, in my opinion.
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:Of the judges in Jefferson County.
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:If we had a scale of like the most
retaliatory to the least retaliatory,
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:I would put Shelley down at the bottom.
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:I mean, I just would, I don't
think she's really a retaliatory
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:by nature type person.
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:Hugh: No, I agree with that.
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:I've, I've never encountered
anything that would lead me to
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:Christine: But I was watching motion
hour and I always sign on with my name.
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:And I have a lot of pro se litigants
that message me and say, they're
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:behaving so much better when you're on.
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:And it's like, I don't know about that.
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:But Shelley was very much just like,
I was shocked to get this motion.
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:I mean, she defended the motion before
she allowed Abby to really argue it.
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:Hmm.
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:Which again, mistake.
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:And so the motion was, and the attorney
that was Shelley went to the event
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:was actually the child's guardian
ad litem, which I think leads to it
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:being more problematic, quite frankly.
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:I agree.
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:Hugh: Yep.
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:Christine: And so the judge says, well, I
was an hour and a half late to the event
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:which like a very standard Jefferson
County judge, L-O-L-O-L-O-L, and said
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:that she only stayed for 27 minutes, which
I found so bizarre that she remembered
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:the time she said she bought at 27.
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:That's
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:Hugh: very specific.
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:That's, that's just an odd
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:Christine: It is.
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:It's like, you know, and I did, let's
give the benefit of the doubt if you
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:do bill hourly, you know, we typically
can say like, right now we're at a 0.1,
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:but still I found it bizarre.
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:Hugh: We are at a 0.2.
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:Christine: We are
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:Hugh: Oh, from when I
hit recording, sorry.
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:I, I'm used to, I've spent so
much of my life watching timers.
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:Yep.
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:Christine: And then she
said, I bought a beer.
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:I paid for the beer.
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:I've got the, you piss me off party.
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:Sitting here on the bench,
which is like a local family.
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:Sure.
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:Bar party.
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:Hugh: Non-partisan, non-political Well,
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:Christine: oh, for sure.
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:Supposed,
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:Hugh: supposed to be.
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:Christine: Yes.
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:And she just kept talking.
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:She said like, essentially, like you'll
recall and we'll get the tape for all
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:the listeners, but you'll recall I wrote
a recommendation letter for you and I
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:have taught most of the attorneys that
practice before me when I was at U of L.
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:And I work really hard.
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:I love my job.
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:I wanna know if I did anything
wrong, and I've reached out to an
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:ethics for the judicial ethics.
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:And I am, if you look at the
parking garage, I am top five.
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:And the judges that are here the
most just very, very, very defensive.
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:She did say, if I did
anything wrong, I wanna know.
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:And then Abigail argued her side and
basically just said, judge, you know,
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:the appearance of a conflict is enough.
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:I contacted the ethics hotline.
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:They said I should file.
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:It also, well, I didn't
even tell you this part.
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:The fact that there was a, there's another
issue in this case as far as what Shelley
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:appointed the guardian ad litem to do.
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:I forgot about until
this, just this moment.
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:But it was just, and the judge
said, well, we can have a hearing on
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:this, but I don't think you can do
it because I wrote a recommendation
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:letter and I don't think that your
staff can do it, because I taught her.
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:So I guess your other partner.
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:Who I don't wanna name
for today's purposes.
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:She's a regularly appointed G-A-L-F-O-C.
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:All the things can argue it, which
in and of itself is a problem.
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:Hugh: Well, wait, hold on.
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:So she defended, she defended
the fact that she might have a
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:conflict by pointing out all the
other ways that she had a conflict.
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:Yep.
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:What.
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:That.
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:That's weird.
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:Okay.
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:We can have a hearing on
this, but you can't argue it.
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:'cause there's already these
other conflicts that would
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:keep you from arguing it.
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:Then why are you on the case?
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:I mean,
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:Christine: exactly.
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:Hugh: To me, I'm very happy that
she, she is saying, I want to
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:know if I've done something wrong.
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:I actually think that that's correct.
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:I think that she probably had a
strong reaction to this because.
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:She's just, frankly not the kind of, I
mean, she, I don't hear people talking
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:about unethical behavior, like that kind
of appearance of that stuff with her.
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:She's just not something that I, I've
heard raised and she is, she's one of the
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:judges that we've had that actually has
a history in the family courts and has
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:cared about and has lived in this world
and has cared a lot about this world
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:going into, it didn't, didn't come over
from some other world to, to, to take a
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:judicial PO position or to run for judge.
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:So I, I, I mean, I take her
to her word there that she
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:wants to know what's going on.
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:It just, that's a bizarre reaction
to point out that we might
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:even have a trouble conducting
a hearing on your motion.
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:For an appearance of a conflict of
interest because there are so many
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:other real conflicts of interest.
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:Yep.
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:That's and that's not, that's not
something that you would expect to
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:come out of the mouth of a lit, someone
that's litigated cases for, for,
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:you know, years and years and years.
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:Christine: Seriously.
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:It, she made it so much worse.
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:And then she even said, I'm not mad.
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:And when she said, I'm not mad, I
just thought, oh my, like I really got
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:up and walked away from my computer.
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:Because can you imagine to step back like
this is some of the legal drama, lawyer
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:drama, but you're fighting about your
children and the judge, a grown woman on
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:a, on the bench tells another grown woman.
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:I'm not mad.
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:That's unreal.
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:Hugh: Yeah, I, you know, to me, sometimes
I will say that I tend to, when it's
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:outside of the courtroom, I was always
better about this in the courtroom.
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:But just in, in general, someone says
something or something shocks me.
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:I tend to sometimes show
my real reaction to it.
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:And sometimes I will, you, you know, me,
I tend, tend to react out loud or think
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:out loud, and I'll say things to one
side and then the other and I'll just,
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:my whole thought process is out loud.
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:I, I could see myself offering.
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:I know I've said this and this
and this, all these things.
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:It doesn't mean I'm mad, I'm just,
I'm just trying to get my head
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:around it, that kind of stuff.
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:So I, I, I guess I could see that.
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:Christine: I think if anyone tells you
they're not mad, you need to be prepared
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:because they are beyond pissed off.
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:Beyond pissed off.
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:I did a test, like I literally went
up, y'all, you know, I'm out of town.
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:I went up to my stepdad and
I was like, I'm not mad.
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:And he, 'cause he's had like a recent
surgery, he's recovering, he like
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:put his phone down and was like.
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:Oh shit.
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:Like he knew it was coming
and I'm like, this is a test.
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:Like, and again, fair enough, you know,
I've had this conversation with a lot
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:of female attorneys and really I don't
ever recall practicing in front of a
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:male judge and going home and being
like, is the male judge gonna be mad
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:at me and take it out on me later?
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:Now, I'm not saying that there
aren't male judges that have
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:acted inappropriately lazy.
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:All the things predatory, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
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:But I don't know.
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:Oh, I just, it, it's embarrassing
as a female that someone from the
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:bench with that kind of power is
like, I'm not mad at you little girl.
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:Like, just, just be a judge.
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:Hugh: Yeah.
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:I, I, you know, I've been guilty
of missing , those dynamics.
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:Before, so save yourself, you, yourself.
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:No, I mean, I, I wouldn't have
read as much into it, but I'm
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:not, I'm not saying you're wrong.
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:I think if I were on the other
side of that, I don't know
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:how I would've interpreted it.
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:I have certainly come out of many
courtrooms wondering if things
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:are gonna be taken outta me or
if, or someone's gonna be mad.
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:Both male and female judges.
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:And I, and I won't, I don't
think it's necessarily de fair
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:to say more so in front of female
judges because overwhelmingly, I
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:practiced in front of female judges.
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:There's only a handful of
male judges that I've spent a
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:whole lot of time in front of.
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:There was a small number that I, I
tried tons and years and years and
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:years worth of cases in front of.
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:But after a while, if you've been in
someone's court for years, you, you
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:can read them, you can see, yeah,
I didn't need to worry if they were
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:gonna be mad or take it out on me.
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:And in fact.
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:Most of the male judges i, I
practice in front of, in Jefferson
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:County were not that way.
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:You know, up until the, some of the,
some of the current batch of judges that
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:started appearing a little bit more, but
they're mostly females, so we had, we
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:had a lot more male judges on the bench.
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:Now there have been times early
in my career when I wasn't
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:good at reading judges where I.
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:Would have to challenge a ruling and
argue with the judge, and we kind
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:of got into it and it was respectful
and we were arguing the law.
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:And at the end I waited until,
I don't remember if it was at a
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:motion hour or if he had a hearing.
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:Right after I waited until he was finished
with everything, I walked back in and
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:said, judge, I'm really sorry, YTO.
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:I didn't mean to, you know, I
wasn't trying to be unprofessional.
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:I was, I was just arguing my point.
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:And I, I, I'm hoping
that you understand that.
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:And he, he looked at me and
laughed and he's like, yeah,
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:you were being an advocate.
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:If you, if I was really mad
at you, you would know it.
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:And I, I remember, yeah, kind of
chilling out a little bit after that.
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:But , I remember.
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:Thinking I have to hang out and I
have to go talk to this judge 'cause
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:I may have just crossed a line
'cause I was arguing so hard and
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:he just thought it was hilarious.
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:Christine: Well, and that's where I talk
about my experience with criminal judges.
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:They love the law, they love
strong legal arguments, zealous
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:legal arguments, zealous debates.
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:Yep.
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:But in family court and for the listeners,
we had a massive turnover in judges
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:and we have all new judges and a lot
of people, the local community, we call
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:it the old guard and the new guard.
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:I mean, and And
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:Hugh: they're not new.
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:They're not new.
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:The ones that we talk about
are that of being new are,
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:are what, seven, eight years?
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:Nine years on the bench some, so, yeah.
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:Christine: Yeah.
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:And but there was a massive change and
people just talk about how different it is
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:and the old judges had much more respect,
you know, from what we all talk about.
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:And this is not.
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:You know, we get so many
comments too about like, oh my
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:gosh, lawyers are all in on it.
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:I do not know one lawyer and
for the judges listening,
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:I do not know one lawyer.
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:We have tried to get a lawyer to come
on this podcast and say that the judges
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:are working full time and that they're
doing a good job and we cannot get one.
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:We cannot get one.
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:Hugh: No, but you know where
people are saying they're in on it.
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:You know, some of the things
you experienced in California,
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:I, I can understand the
perception where attorneys are.
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:Having proceedings without the
clients present that are affecting
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:and, and determining what goes on.
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:They're having meetings, you know,
between the attorneys and the gs,
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:and not letting the clients guide
those meetings, or not talking about
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:their position, not preparing them,
and giving the clients some well,
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:frankly, the client has the choice.
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:The client is the one that says
What happens if the, you know.
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:The attorney's job is to fight for the
client's position, and if the client's
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:position is I, I won't say illegal, but
not a good plausible legal position,
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:the attorney then has to decide to get
off of the case, not to just sort of
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:do what he or the she thinks is right.
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:But it sounds to me like you, you've
talked to a lot of people in other
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:jurisdictions where it, it would be hard
not to think the attorneys are in on
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:the process, but that's certainly not.
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:Anything that I've seen or it is not
a complaint that I hear of here in the
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:jurisdictions where we've practiced.
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:Christine: Oh, it's happening here.
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:I mean, I get messages daily and
some of them I've started to verify
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:and there are a couple attorneys.
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:And I think that we like just to
pivot a little bit on this motion to
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:recuse and we can come back to that.
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:But I, I do wanna be clear, I think
we really have done a lot of young
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:attorneys, especially attorneys that came
up during the pandemic, a disservice.
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:They're emboldened to think, that they
have as much experience as somebody like
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:you that's been practicing for 20 years
and they've never cut their teeth on
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:having adversarial hearings in person.
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:True.
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:Or with judges that followed the law.
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:But no, I mean it's it is a
common occurrence and we are
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:looking for, I am looking for
anyone, and this is not to say.
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:Always one way or another, but the amount
of attorneys that are now recommending
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:you get a GAL or FOC is somewhat shocking
to me because very rarely do I think
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:that we talk to attorneys that think
GALs and FOCs should be a motion filed
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:within the first two to three months.
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:, Hugh: There were cases that
to get what my client desired.
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:It was going to be required.
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:And some, you know, from my point
of view of putting , my litigator
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:hat back on, there were certain
patterns that you would recognize
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:where one parent is doing something.
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:It's one of these commonly
recognized manipulation patterns or
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:trying to destroy the other side.
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:That is oftentimes from an
evidentiary point of view,
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:very hard to prove at trial.
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:But.
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:An FOC or a GAL will be able to see it.
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:And because of the lax rules on them
presenting things to the court and
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:them just getting to say their opinions
at motion hour and things like that,
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:you know, as a litigator, you'd take
advantage of it because getting them
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:involved in the case, it was much
easier for them to get evidence in
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:front of the court and, and you, you
would always discuss it with the client.
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:But, you know, I, I
would say the, you know.
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:More likely than not, what they're going
to get across to the court is going
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:to prove what you're trying to prove,
and it's the best way to get there.
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:But those, those were very
specific circumstances , and,
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:and my statement that.
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:What, what wasn't happening in the
jurisdictions where we practiced,
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:the attorneys weren't in on it.
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:I was not referring to the FOCs or the Gs.
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:I was return, I was per, I was
referring only to the attorneys
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:for the litigants that seem like,
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:Christine: yeah,
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:Hugh: they're much more involved in
this system that we talk about in,
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:in other places where you've been.
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:Christine: Yeah, and I think Josh called.
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:And if you haven't listened to that
episode please do the Orange County Dad
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:And I will tell you I'm pretty critical
of our podcast and the one we posted
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:today, our after show of the interview
is probably one of the best, if not
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:the best one that we've done, but.
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:I, Josh called after our, after we
recorded, and he was so thankful
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:and just like, oh my gosh.
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:I really enjoyed talking
to both of you and just the
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:difference between you and Hugh.
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:And he was like saying I
really do think though that
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:you're right in the sense like.
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:You know you got out, I got out.
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:A lot of the good
attorneys are getting out.
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:Most attorneys I talk to are
avoiding court at all costs.
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:If they wanna go to court, they're
saying you need to hire A, B,
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:or C because you are going to
end up paying 30, 40, $50,000.
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:And I can't guarantee any outcome.
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:You know?
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:Yeah.
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:And so I think a lot, there's mass
exodus, so back to the motion to recuse.
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:I watched two motion hours, three
motion hours, and maybe four.
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:But I didn't recognize a
lot of the people anymore.
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:Hugh: Yeah.
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:The, when, when we have gone in
person over the last couple months,
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:I've really felt that way Now.
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:Part of that was the last couple
years of my practice, I was leading
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:a litigation team and I was handling,
you know, I was only making routine
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:appearances on, on certain cases.
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:Most, I, most of the time
I wasn't in motion hour and
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:frankly I was usually remote.
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:Unless it was a really important motion
where I would need to be there in person,
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:like something that I thought presence
would, would be of value, I was usually
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:working on something else and waiting
for, I heard the name and I was not
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:paying attention to anyone else's case.
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:I just never paid any attention
to anything else anybody had on.
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:I was just waiting for my case to come up
so I could get onto the next thing, but.
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:Yeah, , I mean, it used to be,
to me it was like a social hour.
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:You'd see all these people you
knew, but largely after the
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:pandemic for me, that stopped.
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:Yep.
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:And then now it's, I
mean, it's younger people.
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:That's what the older
generation always says.
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:Who are these young
whipper snappers coming in?
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:I don't recognize any of 'em.
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:They all look like they're 12.
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:Yeah.
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:Makes me feel old.
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:Christine: Oh, totally.
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:And it makes me really worry about,
you know, we have a lot of the people
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:that are rarely appointed Gs FOCs that
are handling massive practices too.
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:Yep.
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:Privately.
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:And that's very concerning.
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:You know, I've, we've started
to get more of a following of.
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:Local Louisville attorneys that don't
practice family law really inquiring
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:about what's going on and it's all
the third party appointments and the
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:custodial evaluators, they wanna know
how much are the GS and FOCs making.
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:They want to know what are they
able to have a private practice?
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:How many hours are they working?
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:And it's, that information's not publicly
available, but I would say, and I was just
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:guessing, but like if you're appointed
GAL on the dependency neglection abuse
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:docket, I would say annually you're
making 40 to 60 a year with these
404
:appointments are paid for by the state.
405
:Yes.
406
:Right.
407
:Would you.
408
:That's about right.
409
:Hugh: Yeah.
410
:I mean, I was told, oh God, over a
decade ago that it was 35 to $40,000.
411
:That's what it would add to your revenue
to take that day and put it on the docket.
412
:That other, you know what other people
said when we were hiring attorneys that
413
:wanted to keep their docket, if we were
hiring somebody with one, you know,
414
:those were the discussions, you know?
415
:So that's the last time I've heard that.
416
:I would imagine it is more now.
417
:Christine: And so then there's
not a lot of money in that.
418
:And these are the cases
that are confidential.
419
:And this is the case where, , there
are allegations of abuse or neglect or
420
:dependency, which is a unique thing that
we have in Kentucky, which basically
421
:just means you can't care for your
child through no fault of your own.
422
:But then the appointments where
they're really making money is on these
423
:custody, private circuit court actions.
424
:Yeah.
425
:And they're billing between
200 and $300 an hour.
426
:But I would say that there are GALs
and FOCs that are making on just the
427
:circuit cases, and I am speculating,
I am guessing, but I would say, you
428
:know, 60 to 120 a year, some of them.
429
:Hugh: Oh, it's gotta be more
than Why would you be doing
430
:that if you weren't making Yeah.
431
:I mean, if you have hundreds of cases,
hundreds of cases, and you work for.
432
:You know, 30, or you have 15 minutes
per case, per week, you're gonna
433
:be making a ton more than , I
want to do that calculation.
434
:I'm not, I'm not, I'm not quick
enough to do it as we sit here, but
435
:it, I, I would imagine it's huge.
436
:Now does that mean you're collecting it?
437
:No.
438
:But if we're just talking
about what you're billing out.
439
:Yeah, it's gotta be who in the hell
would want to deal with that as a
440
:full-time gig for that kind of money?
441
:Now I get the, that makes
442
:Christine: me wanna put
tequila in my LaCroix.
443
:Well, if they're making
444
:Hugh: two or $300,000, I would say that
when, I mean, when you're dealing with
445
:the dependency dockets, things like
that, where it's a one day you work
446
:for a court and you do that, I mean, I.
447
:I, can see that being an attractive
gig to someone who has a young family
448
:or something and doesn't wanna work
full time or wants to supplement
449
:things so that they are not pulled
into so many, you know, private cases.
450
:They take up your life, you know,
regardless of whether you say, oh,
451
:I'm only working eight 30 to five.
452
:It just not how it works, right?
453
:Those kinds of cases are probably
a lot less likely to take up a
454
:need into, to your other time.
455
:I can see why people are interested
in those jobs, especially , in certain
456
:aspects of their life, and they can do
some private practice at the same time.
457
:The private ones, , I felt, I don't know.
458
:I always felt when I had my own cases.
459
:That there was this conflict in me
when I, I had anything court appointed
460
:that was worth less to me and would
probably get less attention from me.
461
:So I didn't want to take those
things because I know how I work.
462
:Yeah.
463
:And if I can earn, you know, five plus
hundred dollars on a case, why do I want
464
:to take a court appointed case where
I'm gonna get like a flat fee or just
465
:a, you know, , a much smaller amount.
466
:And because when I would do
it and then , would take them.
467
:I fought hard on them.
468
:I pissed a lot of people off because
they probably hired thinking that I
469
:would just file a basic blanket response
after a short phone call with my client
470
:and wouldn't really defend the case.
471
:And I would get involved and I
would fight it like any other case.
472
:Yeah.
473
:'cause that's you know, that was my job.
474
:But, so you did a lot of criminal
work, criminal defense work.
475
:The prosecutors I know, you know, are
paid by the state a certain amount, and
476
:they are allowed to have a non-criminal.
477
:Defense practice is that regulated?
478
:How many hours they can work,
how many cases they can take
479
:on their private practice.
480
:Christine: Oh, that's a huge problem.
481
:And if you look at the judge
that was just indicted.
482
:Out of Eastern Kentucky.
483
:It's based on the fact that he was the
county attorney taking private work
484
:and there was an alleged kickback.
485
:Now Eastern Kentucky is the wild,
wild west, and I'm gonna be very
486
:clear 'cause I get so many messages.
487
:Are you scared?
488
:Are you scared?
489
:Are you scared?
490
:Yeah.
491
:I'm scared of Eastern Kentucky judges.
492
:Okay, so they are doing their job.
493
:They are impeccable.
494
:They're brilliant and they're amazing.
495
:And the one that was killed in
chambers was doing nothing wrong.
496
:LOL.
497
:Okay.
498
:But.
499
:Yes, it's a major, major problem.
500
:And the county attorney, the way
our prosecutor office is scheduled,
501
:and this is like a whole book,
but I don't trust, mm, let me
502
:think about the way to say this.
503
:Mm mm mm I'm not a fan of our
county attorney prosecutors in
504
:dependency, neglected abuse.
505
:I think that they stir up an absolute
amount of drama and they, you know.
506
:And this is on the dependency,
neglect, and abuse.
507
:We're going down a rabbit hole here, but
yeah, so our prosecutors, they prosecute
508
:these dependency, neglect and abuse cases.
509
:And then the people that are court
appointed on this docket, they get 500
510
:bucks a case, and they're appointed to
either represent mom, dad, or the child.
511
:So it's like a circle of people
that are in court every single day.
512
:And I also think that judges aren't
gonna appoint Hugh to that docket
513
:because he's gonna uphold people's
constitutional rights, and that gets
514
:in the way of having a two hour lunch.
515
:Hugh: I, yeah, I think, I think people did
get frustrated because there were a lot
516
:of hearings that wouldn't have ordinarily
taken place, , you know, appoint me to
517
:represent a prisoner and then I will look
at the pleadings and realize you didn't
518
:actually plead the case and file a motion.
519
:Mm-hmm.
520
:To dismiss it or dismiss some of
the requested relief because you
521
:didn't do that part of the job.
522
:Right.
523
:And nobody sees that coming.
524
:They think.
525
:They don't have to spend
much time on the case.
526
:The person is, is a prisoner.
527
:They're not gonna, you know, no
one's really gonna defend them.
528
:I can be sloppy with the stuff.
529
:Yeah.
530
:I mean, yeah.
531
:, That's the case.
532
:, I know what my personal issues would be,
doing a good job on the court appointed
533
:cases if I was doing a ton of them.
534
:I, but , I'm interested to know the
same thing that the viewers are.
535
:How many cases, like why can't this
just be something that is reported?
536
:At least, you know, to the
judges so they know Yeah.
537
:Whether someone has availability.
538
:'cause we all know I have, I have
spoken with friend of court and
539
:people that say they just, they are
overwhelmed with cases at the moment
540
:and they're doing as things as quickly
as possible and will get back to me.
541
:And they're, sorry it's taking so long.
542
:People that will actually say that.
543
:And then the next Monday I'd be in
motion hour and the court would say, Mr.
544
:And Mrs.
545
:So-and-so, do you have
availability to take a case?
546
:Yes, of course, judge.
547
:Yep.
548
:And it was like, you don't have
time to do what you're doing.
549
:You, you're tell, you're
always putting things off.
550
:You're not answering your phone, you're
not answering emails 'cause you've taken
551
:on way too many cases, but you don't
wanna stop getting those appointments.
552
:So you'll just keep taking on
more and, and it's a problem.
553
:And like, like you said then, then
you get into these attorneys that
554
:are asking, knowing that that's how
the system is working, knowing that.
555
:People don't have time to actually do
their job and call their client and
556
:follow the actual rules when doing it,
and they're overwhelmed with cases.
557
:Why you would ask for someone like
that to get involved in the case?
558
:I mean, I just, I can only think of
very specific circumstances where
559
:I would ever want that to happen.
560
:Christine: Yeah, and I can think of.
561
:Literally almost no one that I would
trust if I had friends of mine that were
562
:getting divorced and they were like,
oh, we're gonna get a guardian ad litem
563
:and we're gonna appoint this person.
564
:I would be like, hell no.
565
:Hell no.
566
:I mean, I can't think.
567
:I think that maybe it worked before.
568
:I think court appointments are a
one of the biggest things that we
569
:could radically change immediately.
570
:Children do not need an
hourly rate attorney.
571
:In their parents' divorce.
572
:Okay.
573
:That is insane.
574
:I don't know how we have normalized this.
575
:We are taking money directly out of
their college fund, their trade school
576
:fund, the down payment for their house.
577
:For a lot of these people
that we know that I wouldn't
578
:trust to write a will for me.
579
:Hugh: Well, and you know, and here's
what you know, you and I know from
580
:having, practiced , and how many
things that you go in front of the
581
:court on in a divorce that may be
perfunctory or case management.
582
:And there are tons of divorces where,
you may be litigating a ton over
583
:the course of a year, and none of
it has to do with the kids issues.
584
:But if you have a GAL on the
case, they're sitting there
585
:through every single hearing.
586
:They're usually looking at their phone
or working on something else because.
587
:It doesn't involve them, but
they are representing a party.
588
:I'm not blaming them.
589
:They have to be there, but the system
is requiring the parties to pay hourly
590
:for another attorney to sit through
potentially tens of hours of things , and
591
:review pretrial disclosures and things
to make sure there's thing, you know,
592
:whether or not it has anything to do
with the kids' interest and all of this.
593
:Yeah, I, , it's exorbitantly expensive
in a lot of cases and so much of the work
594
:doesn't have anything to do with a child.
595
:Christine: Yep.
596
:And it's to go back to this and
we'll wrap up with this refusal
597
:motion, but, so this is a GAL that's
appointed to represent the child.
598
:And imagine you're sitting there at
home, you've got an acrimonious divorce
599
:with your ex, and you're scrolling
Instagram and you see the attorney.
600
:You're paying hundreds of dollars
an hour to represent your child
601
:or children's best interest.
602
:Cosing up at a political event.
603
:With the judge presiding over your case.
604
:Like, and to be clear, in Kentucky,
which is rare, the standard for a
605
:conflict or bias is the appearance
of not an actual conflict.
606
:Yep.
607
:The appearance is enough.
608
:Shelley absolutely needs to get off
of this case and every judge out there
609
:listening, you got no business going
to a partisan political campaign.
610
:Just don't do it.
611
:Hugh: Yeah, I mean, that's, it, it,
it stinks because, you know, I worked
612
:in politics before to win family law.
613
:I, I get the, the, the
desire to be involved.
614
:But it's something you have to know
that you're not supposed to do when
615
:you, when you get on the bench.
616
:And, I mean, there's one
thing to be talking to.
617
:You know, , if you're posting on
social media that you're socializing
618
:with someone else that's involved
in the case, that's the appearance.
619
:I mean, the, you're right though.
620
:I mean, Kentucky's standard, , the
appearance of impropriety or,
621
:a problem with impartiality.
622
:It gives the judges the ability to
recuse and say, I don't believe that
623
:this is an issue, but I can see how
it might, you know, it has caused
624
:the appearance of someone in here.
625
:I'm going to recuse,
we're gonna reassign that.
626
:And that it doesn't go
any further than that.
627
:And it allows the judges to do that very
graciously and frankly, take advantage
628
:of sending a case over to somebody else.
629
:Yeah, it is just a, it's a strange
reaction to me for her to point out other.
630
:Other conflicts, although you
know the things that she's
631
:pointing out and it's correct.
632
:How many small town judges have, you know,
had some interaction with the attorneys.
633
:You know, every single attorney that's
practicing in front of them, how many
634
:interactions they've had with them
in civic life outside of the court.
635
:There's some relationship there
and maybe they know everybody
636
:in all the litigants as well.
637
:'cause it's a small town.
638
:I get that part, but, but
639
:Christine: I think Shelley,
she made a bad argument.
640
:She made it worse because I think that
what you do prior to when you're on
641
:the bench is also very different than
what you do while you're on the bench.
642
:That's a, that's a good point.
643
:Point.
644
:I mean, the fact that you had
cases with someone while you were,
645
:you know, is very different, but.
646
:Judges have to be impartial and
nonpartisan, and we need to go down
647
:this rabbit hole because you and I
both, I mean, we disagree adamantly
648
:on a whole, whole, whole hell of a
lot politically, but politicizing
649
:the judiciary is one thing that we,
I think, agree wholeheartedly on.
650
:Yeah, we cannot be doing that.
651
:And I do think.
652
:There is a problem, regardless of
whether there's a D or an R by your name.
653
:The judges shouldn't associate with
D or R because somebody coming in
654
:shouldn't feel like, oh my gosh, I'm
a D, you're an R, therefore you're
655
:gonna take it out of me on the, in
this political climate, or vice versa.
656
:You know
657
:Hugh: what I'm saying?
658
:Oh, absolutely.
659
:I mean, to me personally, when.
660
:I know someone's politics and I agree
with them, and they get on the bench.
661
:Personally, I think, oh, I'm, I'm
happy that this person or a person
662
:that believes this is on the bench.
663
:But that in in and of itself
is part of the problem.
664
:Like you you, but I mean, like
you said, what you did before you
665
:got on the bench is different.
666
:, You know, you were elected to be on the
bench despite all that you had done and
667
:that politically up until that point.
668
:So there is this presumption that
from the time you're on the bench,
669
:all of that can be left outta your
decisions while on the bench and.
670
:I think, you know, the judges, because
they're people and they're gonna have
671
:lives before the bench, are entitled
to that presumption that they can be
672
:impartial no matter what they did before.
673
:I think that's how, it's, to me, very
different what you do after you've,
674
:you've been on the bench, you know, and
you're still attending things and doing
675
:things politically, even if I agree with
this or that, that you may be doing or
676
:presenting yourself as, yeah, , I worry
about it only because of how that's used
677
:in other places and in that rabbit hole
or I guess not rabbit hole, that slippery
678
:slope is, is one that there, there are
plenty of other examples that we can
679
:look at and how that can go very wrong.
680
:Christine: Yeah.
681
:And then I forgot to tell you, the
GAL's response was, well, this is not
682
:a fundraiser, this is a kickoff event
and the judge is not gonna endorse me.
683
:And a kickoff event
684
:Hugh: for what?
685
:A campaign.
686
:Yeah.
687
:I mean
688
:Christine: like if somebody
wrote a check, they were gonna
689
:be like, no, no, no, no, no.
690
:I'm not taking money today.
691
:We're just, well, that's
not the standard though.
692
:Hugh: The standard isn't
whether you took money.
693
:Yeah.
694
:If it's a kickoff event for your kids'
school volleyball team, there's no issue.
695
:But yeah, I mean, yeah,
complete that sentence.
696
:A kickoff event for, because if it's
a kickoff event for a campaign, how
697
:the hell does that make a difference?
698
:Christine: Exactly, and she also said
that, and that Your Honor is not going
699
:to endorse me, which I thought in
and of itself is the appearance of a
700
:conflict because the GAL is speaking
on behalf of the judge whether or
701
:not she's gonna endorse And judges
cannot endorse people for campaigns.
702
:No.
703
:Now they do.
704
:I mean, the TikTok judge endorsed a
sitting family court judge while she was.
705
:A sitting judge in the judicial conduct
commission did not reprimand her.
706
:Hugh: Yeah.
707
:But partisan.
708
:So maybe they know partisan,
they can get away with it.
709
:I think it's, I mean, there may be a
distinction in, in getting involved
710
:in partisan politics and if you
were involved in, , non-partisan,
711
:you know, a non-partisan issue.
712
:Christine: Okay.
713
:Judges can't endorse anyone.
714
:Like the, the judicial cannons
are very, very, very clear.
715
:Okay.
716
:I mean, I think they maybe did a pri
they didn't do a private reprimand
717
:that we can see, but they may
have done that private whatever.
718
:But I mean, I, again, that goes
to how judges are em bolded.
719
:But no, judges cannot endorse
people for political office.
720
:Otherwise we should just.
721
:Give up.
722
:I mean, that's dramatic.
723
:I don't know what to say, but judges can't
be involved in the political process.
724
:It's the appearance of a conflict.
725
:Like if you endorse a Democrat or
you endorse a Republican, what if
726
:a matter comes before the court?
727
:Hugh: Yeah.
728
:No, I think this is, I think this is this
is a whole different discussion that I
729
:think is a really, really important one.
730
:But yeah, I mean, the, the long
and short of it is the judiciary
731
:is supposed to be non-political.
732
:Like when that stops working.
733
:We have lots of evidence throughout
the world of what happens when
734
:the judiciary becomes political.
735
:And we are starting to see quite a bit
of that here in this country as well.
736
:And I know you and I despite our political
differences, might both agree that we want
737
:to pull back on that as much as possible.
738
:Like our goal is for the judge, the, the
judiciary to do what it's supposed to do.
739
:To function properly and
not, not to be political.
740
:And I think a lot of times
the judicial reform community
741
:really has political aims, so I.
742
:Christine: Judge y.com
743
:Couldn't have said it better.
744
:Submit your stories, y'all.
745
:In the upcoming weeks, we
will have massive updates on
746
:the app, what to expect next.
747
:We appreciate your support,
so, so, so, so, so much.
748
:Follow us.
749
:Judging the judges judgey
on YouTube and Instagram.
750
:I am Kentucky, Christine, and
before:
751
:Barrow get a social media account.
752
:Bye.
753
:Peace
754
:Hugh: out.
755
:Speaker 5: Next call.
756
:We need some
757
:Speaker 6: justice, justice, justice.
758
:And I wanna ring bells in public.
759
:I wanna ring bes in public nor crowd.
760
:Yeah, but I To the fo Yeah.
761
:I To the fo Yeah.
762
:Speaker 7: I to the fo fo
763
:teaser.
