EP 10 Like, So Dramatic
Episode 10 — Like, So Dramatic
Podcast: The Judgmental Podcast with Hugh & Christine
Theme: Judicial accountability, courtroom drama, and the politics of family court.
Episode Overview
In this candid conversation, Hugh and Christine pull back the curtain on the Louisville legal scene — from judges mentioning them in court to attorneys using TikTok posts as courtroom ammunition. They dissect recent courtroom encounters, questionable judicial rulings, and how strategy can make or break a case. The duo also reacts to viral courtroom clips, calls out systemic flaws, and examines the influence of money on court-ordered programs.
Key Topics & Segments
• When TikToks Make It Into the Court Record
o Christine shares stories of being name-dropped by judges, parenting coordinators, and
attorneys during active cases.
o How social media comments get twisted into legal leverage.
• The Alison Russell Controversy
o Accusations linking Judgey.com to Project 2025.
o Political labeling as a tactic to divide and discredit.
• Inside the Louisville Courthouse
o Positive feedback from attorneys and court staff versus calculated backlash.
o The surprising neutrality of Judgy despite local assumptions.
• Viral
Courtroom Clip Breakdown
o A probation revocation hearing turns tense as a judge lectures a defense attorney.
o Discussion of judicial demeanor, gender dynamics, and strategic advocacy in court.
• Judge Jessica Stone’s Facebook Post
o Why labeling critics “cartoons and media” misses the point.
o Concerns about fundamental gaps in legal understanding on the bench.
• When Judges Don’t Understand Business Income
o Misinterpretations of gross vs. net income in high-asset divorces.
o How this lack of financial literacy affects child support and maintenance rulings.
• The Receivership Case That Went Nowhere
o A cautionary tale about marital business assets being destroyed because a judge didn’t act.
• Court-Ordered Programs & the Money Trail
o Families in
Transition, Batterers Intervention, and DUI programs: do they work or just generate revenue?
o The parallels to the troubled teen industry and privatized incarceration.
Key Takeaways
• Public criticism of judges often provokes defensive — and sometimes revealing —
responses.
• Courtroom strategy is as important as legal knowledge, especially when judges are
inconsistent in enforcing rules.
• Political and financial interests can shape court-ordered programs more than actual
outcomes for families.
• Transparency, education, and genuine accountability are essential to repairing trust in the judicial system.
Perfect For Listeners Who
• Are passionate about judicial reform and court transparency.
• Want to understand the behind-the-scenes realities of practicing law.
• Follow true courtroom drama and legal commentary.
• Enjoy candid, unfiltered takes from experienced attorneys.
Episode Links & Resources
• Judgy.com – Platform for reviewing judges
• Follow Christine on TikTok & Instagram: @KentuckyChristine
• Subscribe on: YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, iHeartRadio
Transcript
You are listening to
The Judgemental Podcast.
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:We're Hugh and Christine, the Minds
Behind Judgy, the revolutionary app
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:that empowers you to judge the judges.
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:It's pastime for judicial accountability
and transparency within the courts.
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:Prepare for sharp insights, candid
critiques, and unshakable honesty from
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:two lawyers determined to save the system.
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:We need some justice.
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:Justice, my fine justice.
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:And I wanna ring, be in public.
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:I wanna ring, be in public crowd.
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:Yeah.
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:Christine: All right.
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:Welcome to the Judgmental Podcast.
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:We're gonna start off today talking about
how many times we have been mentioned
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:by the local Louisville litigators.
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:Actually, one judge did a Facebook post
about us calling us cartoons and media.
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:But to back up just a little bit, I
started this, my goodness, I think it's
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:almost been a year and a half, but my
tiktoks, I'm at @KentuckyChristine have
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:been used as a part of the court record
on at least two or three occasions,
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:and I've been mentioned by name.
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:Did you know that?
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:Hugh: No.
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:I mean, I, I heard I've, I've heard
about one or two of the instances,
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:but I didn't know that many times.
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:Yeah.
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:So when in pleadings Oh.
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:Or are spoken about on the record?
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:Recorded in cases
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:Christine: d all of the above.
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:Hugh: Wow.
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:Christine: So, yeah, when I first started,
I had a follower that asked a question,
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:and this was a Bullitt county attorney,
Carrie Risin, I, what's her last name?
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:Oh,
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:Hugh: Ritsert.
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:Ritsert,
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:Christine: Yeah.
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:Mm-hmm.
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:She made it a part of an
exhibit on a pleading.
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:Oh,
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:and then we, of course, we had
Elizabeth Jenkins, who was a parenting
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:coordinator who mentioned me on the
record and was like your Honor, in front
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:of Christian Ward, your Honor, this
pro se litigant that she's an hourly
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:parenting coordinator on contacted Ms.
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:Christina Miller.
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:And I was like, yeah.
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:And the judge was like, Hmm.
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:So just the notion to utilize me,
she'd asked like a very benign comment,
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:just like a very benign question, kind
of just like, what is the procedure
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:about FOCs or GS or something?
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:Well
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:Well ask
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:Hugh: it publicly.
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:Or she talked to you privately
and then told the told.
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:Christine: She
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:didn't call me attorney.
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:No.
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:She said she'd called me and it's like,
I don't, you can't call people on TikTok.
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:She had commented on one of
my posts talking about these
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:third party appointments that
obviously everyone knows.
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:And
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:And so
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:Hugh: this attorney saw
it and mentioned it.
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:Christine: Yep.
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:And mentioned it to get an advantage to
be like, oh, she's talking to Christine.
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:Hugh: Christina.
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:Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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:Hugh: Christina.
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:Christine: And I'll tell you,
Elizabeth Jenkins and I have history.
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:I was like, when it happened,
I did a TikTok on it.
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:I had not spoken to her
in probably a year now.
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:Of course, I texted her after and
she's like, I don't want any problems.
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:I don't want any problems.
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:And it was just like, well,
that's the whole thing.
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:And that goes into the other
attorney that mentioned us by name.
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:Remember that happened last week?
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:I did a post on it, Ms.
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:Allison Russell.
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:But that just goes, don't remember
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:Hugh: anything about it.
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:Christine: Oh, really?
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:No, I'm
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:Hugh: kidding.
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:Christine: Oh my gosh.
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:This one is like so dramatic
in so many different ways.
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:But it just goes to show how attorneys
will utilize anyone questioning the system
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:as a means to , get an advantage in court.
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:Do you know what I'm saying?
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:Hugh: Yeah.
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:I mean, it's, I was a
little bit shocked by it.
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:Yeah.
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:But yeah,
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:Christine: and then we had Jim Murphy,
the GAL we've talked about that apparently
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:allegedly went up to a pro se litigator
and said that I was dangerous.
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:And this pro se litigator put that
in the record, which this is a person
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:fighting about their child or children.
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:Again, I don't know these, like
I don't represent these people.
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:I literally make tiktoks and talk
about, Hey, you need to look into
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:who's donating to your judge.
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:You need to be careful when you get
an FOC or GAL or parenting coordinator
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:appointment because it could cost
you tens of thousands of dollars.
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:And oftentimes here in Louisville, we
have problems with meeting with the kids.
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:Hugh: Yeah.
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:Christine: And I don't
think that's a radical.
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:Hugh: So to be clear though, you
never actually talked to any of
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:these people that allegedly had, had
dealings with you or had posted to
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:you or commented on your tiktoks?
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:Christine: Well, I don't wanna ever like
for sure say my sources, but no, for when
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:that happened, I'd had a person comment
on my TikTok and I did a response to it.
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:And I don't think, I mean, certainly
I don't give out my cell phone.
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:Like you, I have some
people that I talk to.
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:I have sources and things like that,
but if , I get messages, oh my goodness.
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:I'd spend all day on the phone.
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:We'd never work.
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:Hugh: No, I, I, I understand.
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:Christine: Yeah.
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:And I did have
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:somebody come up to me in court and be
like, I'm a huge fan of yours and what
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:you're doing, but I just think , it's
the notion that they're utilizing
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:me or judgey to say negative things.
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:Isn't it so shocking?
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:Hugh: I expected there to be a lot
more backlash, really, to be honest.
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:Yeah.
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:I mean, when we go down.
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:Around the courthouse, we
run into people and it's just
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:been overwhelmingly positive.
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:Mm-hmm.
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:And how many, how many people have reached
out and said, well, when I finished this
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:or that case, you know, maybe we can talk,
I'd like to, like to come on and talk with
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:you guys and how many people say thank you
for saying what we all wish we could say.
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:July 29 Cam HW: Yep.
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:Yep.
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:And
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:Hugh: we, you know, this is what
we all talk about in, in groups
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:and in chats and, you know, when
we're having beers together.
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:But no one can come out and say it.
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:Thank you.
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:And I was really expecting that.
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:I mean, when you, when you buck any
system, the system usually fights back.
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:Pretty hard and I'm, I'm happy that almost
everything has been positive so far.
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:Christine: Oh yeah.
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:I think the lawyers are sick of it.
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:I mean, I think most of the, I talk to a
lot of lawyers but most people that are
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:saying anything negative or mentioning
us in pleadings are attaching tiktoks
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:as exhibits, which in and of itself is
just a stupid sentence to say out loud.
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:Most of the time they're court appointed
attorneys that are getting, you know,
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:appointments for GALs FOCs, parenting
coordinators, mediators, other than
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:our little Bullock County baby doll.
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:But again, we appreciate it.
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:Carrie, I will send you this link.
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:And so, Allison Russell,
let's talk about this.
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:'cause I do think this one maybe
upset you a little bit, not upset you.
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:What's the right way to say it?
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:Hugh: I don't, I don't know.
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:I didn't have that take on it.
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:I was, I was just a little surprised.
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:Yeah, I was, I was surprised.
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:Just by the nature of the comment,
and it made me feel old because I had
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:to ask you to translate the emojis.
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:Christine: LOL Oh my gosh.
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:There was an eye roll.
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:. Emoji.
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:I thought
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:Hugh: that's what it was.
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:But I had to check before I, I I reserve
judgment on the, the post until you
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:confirmed that that was an eye roll.
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:Christine: Well, and it's
just one of those things.
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:And Alison Russell is a court
appointed GAL in cases, and she
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:does a lot of appellate part work.
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:She's run for judge before,
but she made this assumption or
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:allegation that judgey judge y.com
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:is somehow associated with Project 2025.
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:That
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:Hugh: did upset me.
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:Yeah.
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:Only because of, yeah, I to be
mentioned in the same paragraph as
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:project 2025 was, extremely annoying.
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:I will say that.
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:Christine: And it's absurd.
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:And she knows it's absurd.
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:And I went on TikTok and
said, this is absurd.
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:You know, it's absurd.
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:We welcomed her on the podcast.
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:Sure.
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:Sent her a really nice message.
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:We'll talk about anything you want.
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:It'll be a civil conversation.
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:But I do think it's weird.
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:So I notice this.
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:And now just to be clear, judgy is
very separate from me and you, right?
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:Yes.
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:And judgy is neutral.
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:We are creating judgy to judge
the judges like we wear the
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:merch, like judgy think you want.
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:But it's not the notion, like
what I think about judges is
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:not what judges is gonna think.
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:Hugh: No.
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:Christine: You know, and what I think
about judges, you may not agree with
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:Hugh: me.
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:No, we don't agree on a lot of things.
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:Christine: Right.
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:But we certainly aren't politically
aligned in any sort of radical right
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:wing or radical left wing, anything.
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:I mean, the notion to
try to lump us into that.
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:Is to divide us and to make us
divisive and to make us controversial
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:and to keep y'all from listening
'cause they think you're stupid.
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:They think that the general public is
going to do whatever the local Louisville
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:lawyers that get appointed and what
the local Louisville judges want.
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:Hugh: Sure.
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:I mean, one of the things that was
most frustrating with me and my
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:practice was the way that the court
appointed, I wanna say system, it's,
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:it's attorneys and other individuals
that are part of court appointed.
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:They referred to it as the way we do it.
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:Yeah.
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:And this sort of, there's this factory,
the system of processing cases.
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:And I knew that there would
be some protection of that in
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:reaction to what we're doing.
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:I just, I found it strange to
be, compared to project:
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:I honestly don't get the reference
even as a slight, I don't understand.
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:I,
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:Christine: yeah, I noticed this when I
ran for office and that's kind of what
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:really changed my trajectory and kind of
how I, not aligned politically, but just
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:how I see politics because everybody came
out and painted me something that was
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:completely opposite of what I was and the
person I was running against, I knew her
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:political leanings and she was portrayed
as this completely different ideology than
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:what I knew her to be behind closed doors.
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:So I think it's a weapon, like if you
were to just utilize my name with, I'm
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:trying to think of someone controversial
on the right and the left, like.
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:If you utilize my name with either
one of those people you can just
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:completely alienate an entire audience.
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:Hugh: Yeah, that makes sense.
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:Christine: That's the goal.
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:Like the goal is to make people think
we are either one way or the other.
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:And you know, I would say
we're probably as neutral.
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:I know judges is neutral, but when it
comes to judges, it's a nonpartisan issue.
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:Sorry, I ramble.
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:No,
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:Hugh: Yeah, it's a nonpartisan issue.
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:Absolutely is.
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:Christine: I mean, I would say most of
these judges probably lean towards the
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:left and yet they violate due process.
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:Like,
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:Hugh: oh, I don't know about that.
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:Oh, interesting.
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:Tell me more.
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:Well, just in cases of religion, I mean,
one of the, one of the things that I
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:had to talk to my clients about where
in, in so many cases where the religious
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:leanings and when it comes into school
choice, if you're looking at Catholic
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:schools versus a Christian school versus,
and while that in Kentucky law at least.
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:Private school, unless the child has
some sort of special need, should not
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:be something that a judge is deciding.
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:But we knew that religious
affiliation, religious beliefs
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:are gonna play into it and they're
always going to, judges are humans.
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:Mm-hmm.
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:We are not asking computers to judge
our cases, but as a practitioner,
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:your clients need to understand that.
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:And the political leanings, I mean,
there were same gendered issues that I
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:knew if we ended up, I mean, especially
early on with same gender divorce.
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:Yeah.
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:When you had the spouses living
in separate counties, big part of
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:the decision was where you filed
and what the leanings were of that
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:judge because it was something new.
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:And it was thanks to what's her
name, Davis, the woman who wouldn't.
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:Kim Davis.
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:Kim Davis, yep.
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:Thanks.
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:Thanks to her.
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:It was politicized from
the very beginning.
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:July 29 Cam HW: Yeah.
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:Hugh: And I mean, so I, I
think that we had to really.
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:Do our due diligence on the judges
and, and advise our clients on it.
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:And I, I didn't find them
to be one way or the other.
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:It was a very mixed bag.
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:Especially when you got
outside of Louisville.
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:Christine: Well, I guess
I would say, oh, for sure.
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:Outside of Louisville, you
know, I used to practice,
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:Hugh: I know
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:Christine: in Morehead.
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:Oh, I know.
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:That's where Kim Davis was.
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:But
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:Hugh: I, when I think of the Louisville
area, I include the other counties that
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:most Louisville attorneys practice.
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:You know, the Shelby Spencer okay.
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:Samuel Anderson Oldham
Trim, you know that.
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:That's one circuit.
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:Then the Trimble Henry
Oldham, and then bullet.
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:That's, that's pretty much it.
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:But I mean, that's, that's sort of
the Louisville metropolitan area
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:that, that people practice in.
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:So I, I was,
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:Christine: see people from
here definitely don't do that.
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:Like, I don't even know, I grew
up in Bullock County and from the
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:south end of Louisville, but I don't
know that I'd ever been to Anderson
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:County until I was a litigator.
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:Like why would you go to, I mean, no
offense, maybe, I don't even know what's
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:in Anderson County, but people, when I'm
say I'm like, I predominantly it's wrong.
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:I need to stop.
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:But when I say like our local
judges, I mean Louisville.
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:Okay.
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:But yeah, I would say that definitely
like our Bullock County judges,
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:no, they are not liberal leaning.
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:Hugh: I mean, I, I.
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:I don't know at the moment, honestly, I
just, I, I remember there were certain
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:issues that you could research and,
and thanks to social media and people
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:posting online, you can figure out where
they stand on things and you can make
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:strategic decisions about where what
forum you wanted your case heard in, what
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:judge you wanted to end up in front of,
to the extent that you had the ability
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:to file in one place or the other.
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:That was a very important decision.
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:Christine: Yeah, and I think
that's one of the problems too.
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:Like you shouldn't know how your
judges vote, but you know, I follow
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:pol like local politics pretty closely
and get kind of obsessed with it in
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:a way that's like weird probably.
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:But yeah.
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:You know, we got the
TikTok judge, Denise Brown.
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:I mean, obviously she hates Donald Trump.
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:She does tiktoks about it.
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:Hugh: Sure.
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:Well, I mean, you have judges that.
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:Post pictures on social media of them
at events for a specific political
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:candidate for one of the parties.
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:So, you know, that was all very helpful to
me as an attorney, to know those things.
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:You're telegraphing things that are going
to help me make decisions for my clients.
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:So I, I'm not, you know, from the
outside neutrally, I don't like it.
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:I don't think that's, I don't think that's
proper, but when I was in the practice,
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:it was something that I could use and
make better decisions for my clients
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:Christine: and that goes so much.
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:You and I have talked about this, but so
much to the point that strategy matters
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:just as much as knowing the law and the
rules of procedure and rules of evidence
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:Hugh: more so when you know your
judges are less likely to enforce
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:the rules or to understand them, you
have to strategize on other things
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:like people's political leanings
or the things that make you angry.
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:When I talk about the strategies, like
finding ways to use up, well more than
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:your allotted time in court so the other
side doesn't get their points across,
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:ways to monopolize the room just.
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:I, because you're not, if you can't win
on the law and the rules because it's a
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:crapshoot, then you're going to try to
strategize in another way as an advocate.
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:That's sort of the way the practice works.
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:I,
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:July 29 Cam HW: yep.
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:Hugh: I would be mortified if I were the
client and those things were deciding
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:what was going to happen with the most
important assets in my life or my kids.
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:That's the world we live in and
that's what we practiced in.
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:Christine: Yeah, and I think
it's just gone too far.
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:Like we've gone over the hill as
far as that goes, but absolutely.
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:Strategy matters.
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:Strategy matters.
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:You guys, I cannot over articulate is
that even the right verbiage to say
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:how much strategy matters in court.
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:And I think this next viral clip will
kind of show maybe a little bit of how
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:you think the wrong strategy was used
and how I have PTSD from watching it.
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:Y'all wanna watch?
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:Hugh: Alright.
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:This is a clip we're gonna be watching.
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:We'll show it on the screen.
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:To those who are
listening, this is a clip.
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:From
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:inside a criminal courtroom, a
motion is made for discovery, which
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:would ordinarily, I guess, be, have
been provided from the prosecution.
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:Christine: Well, the guy's in custody
and they miss, they mention probation.
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:And it seems to me that the
attorney is not a public defender.
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:And I'll explain more once we watch.
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:No,
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:Hugh: I, I, I agree.
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:Christine: It's constitutionally
allowed or required.
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:July 29 wide CM: Yep.
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:Christine: And we were
talking about probation,
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:right?
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:Hugh: That statement that not a lot
of the attorneys have done that.
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:That's really telling.
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:Christine: Look at the poor defendant
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:Hugh: standing in a courtroom
with everyone looking at him
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:Christine: and yelling.
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:Everyone's yelling like children
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:proper way.
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:Hugh: Seems like a proper way
would be to file a motion, which
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:seems to be why they're in court.
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:Christine: I wonder if contact Mr.
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:Nichols is in their local rules.
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:She says it a lot.
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:Hugh: Didn't she say at
some point contact us?
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:July 29 Cam HW: Yeah.
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:Christine: And when talking about
being personally subpoenaed, that's
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:the probation officer likely.
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:All right, so you thought
that, what are your thoughts?
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:Hugh: So of all the ones that
we were reviewing for the one
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:today, I thought that was, that
one was in fairly in innocuous.
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:I think the things that bother me are
not the things that bother you, the
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:things that bother me, I don't like
when a court says, reach out to us and
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:they're referring to the prosecution,
and you just get this feeling
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:that it's all part of one machine.
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:Like the prosecution and the
court are not part of a team.
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:Yeah, yeah.
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:It's not us versus them, both government.
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:But that, yeah, that, that part
always, always bothered me from,
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:from my time in dependency court.
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:The other is.
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:My takeaway is more just attorneys
sometimes need to read the room, but
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:I, when the judge says attorneys,
not many attorneys around here
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:have done that, which is filing
a motion to compel discovery for
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:your defendant client, which.
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:If you're not provided
it, you have no choice.
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:You have to file that motion.
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:Christine: Well, what probably happened?
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:Okay, so it's a probation
revocation hearing likely because
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:there's a probation officer.
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:This one bothered me a lot because,
well, a lot of different reasons,
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:but that judge, first off, let's
just have the very, very frank
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:conversation about, if you wanna look
up the definition of mansplaining.
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:That's what that judge did.
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:She just has a vagina.
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:Okay.
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:And like I've talked before about female
judges being a problem, but the way
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:that she condescendingly explained how
to lawyer to a lawyer in is insulting.
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:But you have to think about when you
are in a room as a defense attorney
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:and the judge's first inclination
is to protect the prosecutor,
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:protect the probation officer.
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:What likely happened is.
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:He gets.
420
:So it's a male defendant.
421
:The attorney's a male, the defense
attorney gets a call, there's a probation
422
:violation, family member calls and is
like, oh my God, you've got Eric and Eric
423
:needs to get out on, is gonna miss work
and Eric's gonna miss all this stuff.
424
:Here's $1,500.
425
:Attorney picks up the phone, calls
the probation prosecutor, calls the
426
:probation officer to get the report,
the detailed report of the violations.
427
:And I'm just speculating, but it
sounds like the probation officer
428
:was like, I'm not giving it to you.
429
:I don't know you.
430
:I don't know who you are.
431
:Maybe the attorney was rude.
432
:So the attorney's like, well,
we need to have a hearing.
433
:I need to know what the violations
are as written in the report.
434
:And instead of just getting that as
he should, he had to file a motion.
435
:Yeah.
436
:And so the defendant is, constitutional
rights are invoked the second
437
:that you're in an orange jumpsuit.
438
:Right.
439
:And so the probation officer's like,
I'm God, I don't have to give you shit.
440
:And I know when I go in here, my
judge is gonna do whatever I wanna do.
441
:Hugh: That's how, that's how it felt.
442
:It also felt like this
attorney might have been from.
443
:Either practiced in another court Yeah.
444
:Or from a different county because the
judge, as you said, mansplained how
445
:things work in that court and everyone
just gets along and they just ask each
446
:other for things informally, which I
just can't fathom an attorney filing
447
:a motion to compel in an action like
this and getting it before the docket
448
:if they had not picked up the phone and
tried to get it through other means.
449
:It just doesn't make any sense that
you would file the motion first.
450
:I would imagine that this
attorney asked for it.
451
:Yep.
452
:And was told, no, it's not happening.
453
:And then you have a judge making excuses
that there was an oversight or some
454
:making excuses for the prosecution, which.
455
:Christine: And not even the
prosecution, also the probation office.
456
:Yeah.
457
:Which is also separate from the prosecutor
and oftentimes the probation officer.
458
:Fair enough.
459
:And the prosecutor are gonna
fight with one another too.
460
:They're gonna have their
own political dramas.
461
:But it's just the notion that when you
go into court as a defense attorney
462
:and you have the judge first thought,
I'm gonna protect my prosecutor and I'm
463
:gonna protect my probation officers.
464
:Not holy shit.
465
:There's a man in an orange jumpsuit
with his liberties being restrained.
466
:Right.
467
:Word.
468
:And I'm going to yell at you.
469
:Yeah, it's like, it's something that
could have happened also at a sidebar.
470
:You know what counsel's
approached the bench.
471
:You're new in this jurisdiction.
472
:I'm gonna push the little white noise
button and explain it, instead of just
473
:tearing him up and down in front of that
client and probably a wife or kids that
474
:somehow came up with $1,500 to get him out
on probation in front of the whole thing.
475
:Hugh: That's a really good point, and
that is something you do as a sidebar.
476
:And the sidebar is where an attorney
a judge will call attorneys up to
477
:the bar and they usually have some
white noise or something they put
478
:on so no one else in the courtroom
can hear what they talk about.
479
:And the judge can speak more frankly to
the attorneys or give some direction.
480
:And since both of them are
standing there, there's nothing
481
:wrong with them having that Yeah.
482
:Conversation.
483
:And they are often very helpful.
484
:Mm-hmm.
485
:And you want to know if you're stepping
in something or doing something
486
:different than the judge would
like, and they tell you privately.
487
:Yep.
488
:Doesn't cause an issue with your
client, doesn't undermine their faith
489
:in, in your ability to practice.
490
:You certainly just don't want that
conversation on the record as an attorney.
491
:But I will say, you know, when a
judge starts speaking, especially
492
:when she says she's gonna grant
your motion, just be quiet.
493
:Christine: I
494
:I dunno.
495
:I'm like, like, why the hell am I here?
496
:Take the win.
497
:Hugh: I agree.
498
:I would be exasperated too, but
as soon as she said I'm going to
499
:grant it, but she won't let me talk.
500
:Maybe that's the cue to be quiet.
501
:I'm not, this is coming from
502
:Christine: an hourly
503
:rate lawyer.
504
:Yeah.
505
:Not a flat rate lawyer that's wasted
all his time, drove 45 minutes.
506
:I'm speculating, but drove 45
minutes to file a motion to get
507
:something that he's constitutionally
entitled to and he's trying to say.
508
:He's trying to say too, listen,
probation officer I ever call you
509
:again, you better gimme what I need.
510
:July 29 wide CM: Sure.
511
:Christine: And the judge is saying,
oh, I got my probation officer's back.
512
:See, that's to the other side of it that
I'm just like, also there's verbiage.
513
:So, you don't need to be so
argumentative and defensive.
514
:Okay.
515
:Whoa.
516
:Hugh: Who am I?
517
:What am I doing here?
518
:Am I a defense attorney?
519
:I think I am.
520
:Christine: Yeah.
521
:That's like hashtag defense attorney.
522
:Hashtag argumentative.
523
:Put that on a billboard.
524
:And I think these are the small
little things that it's not nearly as
525
:egregious as some of the stuff that
we've watched, but it's also like.
526
:Do you notice too, how that judge,
female judge, I'll say it again.
527
:I know this is just my perspective,
but she doesn't have the ability
528
:to tell him how to go to hell
where he looks forward to the trip.
529
:Is that bad?
530
:July 29 wide CM: No,
531
:Christine: but she doesn't have
control over her courtroom.
532
:She gets emotional.
533
:And again, I'm a female, but she
gets emotional and she gets very
534
:tit for tat with him in a way
that I don't think is ju judicial.
535
:Well,
536
:Hugh: she did
537
:say, you don't want to interrupt me.
538
:I, that's, that's control.
539
:Christine: Oh, well, she,
well, she failed at it.
540
:'cause I'd have kept talking.
541
:I just, she did I command respect.
542
:Yeah.
543
:Hugh: Yeah.
544
:I just, you know, and this is coming from
an, as someone who practiced hourly, I
545
:would've been sitting there thinking,
why are we still talking about this?
546
:What is this a therapy session?
547
:Just say, granted, don't you know, there's
no reason for anyone to explain anything.
548
:I'm filing a motion for something.
549
:I'm constitutionally.
550
:Entitled to, if you're gonna grant
it, grant it and say get it to him.
551
:Get it to him by, you know,
today, leave here, you know,
552
:make it available right away.
553
:And then if we need to have a hearing,
and if it's not all there, counsel,
554
:put a motion on and I'll grant you the
hearing and then move on to the next case.
555
:Christine: Yeah.
556
:It's just, you're in these big
courtrooms, especially in criminal court.
557
:'cause they don't do these closed
courtrooms like civil family court does.
558
:Like that is super rare.
559
:Like, that doesn't happen in real court.
560
:And when I say real court, I
mean, district or circuit court
561
:criminal or civil family court
being closed is very unique.
562
:But you will literally have like lined
up all the cops, all the probation
563
:officers, the prosecutors, like
they, all the attorneys run the,
564
:but it'll be on these motion hours.
565
:It will be heavy, heavy, heavy public
defender, two public defenders versus
566
:15 people that work for the state.
567
:Just like sitting in court and
maybe a couple private attorneys.
568
:Hugh: And the private
attorneys sometimes will go up
569
:there and they'll call all
their cases right in a row so
570
:they can get in, in and out.
571
:And there's should No, no, I agree.
572
:I'm just saying that
there's a protocol to it.
573
:So if you're standing there
in that line, you're thinking.
574
:Oh, come on.
575
:Just be quiet.
576
:Just grant the motion.
577
:This is so absolutely 1 0 1.
578
:Granted, let's move on.
579
:I need to get to my case.
580
:We don't need to, you know.
581
:Oh, see, I'm
582
:Christine: the
583
:opposite.
584
:A public defender.
585
:I've been like, hell yeah.
586
:Keep going.
587
:Tell that judge.
588
:Yeah.
589
:I mean that's, yeah.
590
:The difference, I think, I don't know.
591
:Interesting point.
592
:We do see a lot of these
viral clips differently.
593
:Hugh: Well, I mean, from my point
of view, if the judge had started
594
:that way with me, I'm thinking, what
does this look like to my client?
595
:July 29 Cam HW: Mm-hmm.
596
:Hugh: And good point, as soon
as I know I'm winning on it.
597
:Mm-hmm.
598
:It's, it's sort of like the, the way
they train you in trial law, if you.
599
:Object and you lose on the
objection and it's clear.
600
:You can't argue your way around it.
601
:Some objections you, you can tell
that there's, if you argue and
602
:you present exactly why you're
objecting, you probably will win.
603
:But otherwise you lose.
604
:You say thank you, yes, you say thank
you to the people in the courtroom.
605
:It's not 100% clear that you lost.
606
:You're not arguing.
607
:It doesn't, you know, it doesn't
harm you to, let's say the witness.
608
:If you're questioning a witness that's
an adverse witness and you lose on
609
:an objection that the other side
is giving and you say thank you and
610
:you just move forward confidently.
611
:You have continued to control
the room and you are not on your
612
:heels for that witness who's
automatically, who's defensive anyway.
613
:So to a certain extent,
614
:thinking about those things.
615
:If the judge says, I'm going to grant it,
then I'm just gonna shut up, sit down.
616
:I'm not going to get into it any further.
617
:I'm gonna lean over to the
client, say, we got it.
618
:They're gonna have to give this discovery.
619
:Then I would say, judge, thank you.
620
:When can I have this?
621
:My client is missing work.
622
:I'm doing all these things.
623
:When am I going to get this?
624
:Christine: Well, you wouldn't
write a dissertation on it.
625
:And that segues into, I, I
think in that case you need to
626
:Hugh: be quiet and you
mustn't write a dissertation.
627
:Christine: Oh, this segues into
Judge Jessica Stone, y'all.
628
:This is Division Five's Louisville
Judge that called us cartoons and media.
629
:So I'm very excited about that.
630
:We got our press pass via Judge Stone.
631
:Can I do a little backstory on her?
632
:Hugh: Go for it.
633
:Christine: So Judge Jessica Stone was
a prior prosecutor district court.
634
:She had a pretty contentious divorce in
Division five and she's an attorney and
635
:she decided to run for family court judge.
636
:And she won.
637
:Okay.
638
:She had never practiced family
law in any capacity, and it's my
639
:understanding that she ran because
she had problems with the system.
640
:Is that your understanding?
641
:That,
642
:Hugh: that, those were all
the rumors that I heard.
643
:Yeah.
644
:Which I kind of thought, well good.
645
:If you have issues with the system.
646
:Let's see.
647
:See if you can fix them.
648
:Christine: Yeah.
649
:The Courier did a whole article on
it about how, you know, everybody
650
:wished her well after she won.
651
:Well, I would say it took her about 27.3
652
:seconds once she put that black robe
on to just fully drink the Kool-Aid.
653
:Hugh: Yeah.
654
:I can't say that I noticed any
difference from the very beginning,
655
:from the remainder of, of family court.
656
:It was just business as usual.
657
:Nothing, nothing changed other than
there was some wrangling over staff.
658
:July 29 Cam HW: Yeah.
659
:And
660
:Hugh: some, some things like that.
661
:But as far as the way the dockets were
run, how people were treated, , the
662
:court appointments and the, you
know, rubber stamping what GS and
663
:FOCs would say, that kind of stuff
seemed to just continue as usual.
664
:Christine: Now, I'll tell you, I
mean, in all honesty, I'm, I don't
665
:wanna bring any levity to this.
666
:I'm not being dramatic.
667
:I hadn't watched motion hour and
probably a year when I went for
668
:the baby case and I sat in on her.
669
:Motion hour and truly aghast.
670
:She doesn't understand
rudimentary concepts of law.
671
:And I am genuinely concerned,
and I know a lot of Louisville
672
:litigators share this concern.
673
:I spoke to people afterwards.
674
:I'm afraid that somebody's gonna
get hurt with one of her rulings.
675
:'cause I don't think she has
any idea what she's doing.
676
:Hugh: The one thing I, I can say that
I'm thinking a little bit more about.
677
:When she first started, I did find
that she had the demeanor and the way
678
:that she spoke to people at motion
hour, starting off like, here I'm
679
:a new judge, I'm still learning.
680
:She, there wasn't a huge ego to where
you could point out that there were
681
:errors and issues and she was very
willing to say, okay, you're right.
682
:I, I, it looks like I'm
gonna re-look at this.
683
:And she would go back and actually mm-hmm.
684
:July 29 Cam HW: Look at
685
:Hugh: it, which.
686
:It's kind of rare.
687
:Now we have some judges that will still
do that and they've been on the bench
688
:forever and they still will do that.
689
:And to their credit, they can
admit when they're wrong and they
690
:can go back and re-look at things.
691
:But that was a very, that was one thing
that was positive to me at the beginning.
692
:I thought, well this could be something
where, you know, we politely file 59
693
:0 5 motions or motions to reconsider
in things that we will still get some,
694
:you know, so 15 nine get some results
695
:Christine: would
696
:be like something though.
697
:She, what he means by that is
like politely file something.
698
:I do not mean to interrupt
you, but just like
699
:July 29 wide CM: mm-hmm.
700
:Christine: When you, the judge gets
the law blatantly wrong or gets a
701
:ruling blatantly wrong, you gotta,
702
:July 29 wide CM: that
could be a fact as well.
703
:Yeah.
704
:Christine: A fact.
705
:But you file just to say, Hey
judge, like look at this law
706
:fact testimony, et cetera.
707
:And you do that politely, but Yeah.
708
:Sorry.
709
:Yeah, you do.
710
:Hugh: I
711
:mean, you point out you point out
the manifest errors of fact law
712
:under the rule and you say, you
said that this was the wife's.
713
:Premarital property in order to
her, it was actually the husbands.
714
:And I think that you, you know,
just misread, you know, if something
715
:happened, but you clearly didn't
mean this, but this was in the order.
716
:It needs to be corrected.
717
:Mm-hmm.
718
:And those things will be corrected.
719
:And some judges will look and
say, oh man, I'm sorry about that.
720
:We all make mistakes.
721
:We correct it.
722
:Yeah.
723
:That's why the rule is
there and it, and it works.
724
:And then there are some that absolutely
you can't challenge them if you say that
725
:that's not even a party to the case.
726
:You use the wrong name, still
won't correct it and will slam you.
727
:And so I had had some experience with one
of our current judges who just wouldn't
728
:correct basic things that, that were,
he just would reverse the parties and
729
:rulings and I couldn't get them corrected.
730
:So when I saw her willing to correct
things and say, yep, I may have,
731
:I may have gotten that wrong.
732
:I, I, that was huge for me.
733
:I, I, I was very hopeful that we
would have somebody that would, you
734
:know, you still take a look at things.
735
:Oh,
736
:Christine: si.
737
:It's really difficult.
738
:And I do get, from the attorneys I
talk to, they're just like I said,
739
:some fundamental things that I
don't think she knows the law on.
740
:I have not heard one, and lemme be very
clear, I have not heard one positive
741
:thing from any attorney in her division.
742
:Period.
743
:And I, I do hear it about other judges.
744
:Hugh: Yeah, no, I mean, I,
I will say that that's true.
745
:There were, there were people that I, I
spoke with and I would, you know, bitch
746
:and moan about certain people, court
appointed people or you know, people
747
:that were involved in so many cases.
748
:And there, there were some attorneys
that had been around for a long time
749
:that always would have positive things
to say, to sort of, well, that's okay.
750
:But sometimes that person, you know, would
always say things positive and, and the.
751
:It didn't generally happen when you
were talking about division five.
752
:And this is
753
:Christine: Jessica Stone, and this
is the Facebook post that Alison
754
:Russell initially did talking about
judgy, but she made a comment on there
755
:and we'll share it on the screen.
756
:But essentially she just said, we can't be
distracted from cartoons and press media.
757
:Media.
758
:Yeah.
759
:Media.
760
:Media we're media.
761
:And that, that takes away, we mustn't take
away from the hard work that Division five
762
:does every day, which of course there were
like three attorneys that are like, oh
763
:my gosh, you have the hardest job ever.
764
:Oh my God, I love you.
765
:Hashtag you know, blowing
kisses and things like that.
766
:Again, I'm being a bit facetious
and sarcastic, but one.
767
:Judges.
768
:Y'all aren't that dumb.
769
:You know that anybody that does
that on Facebook is talking
770
:about you behind your back.
771
:The second they hit enter on
that post, let me just tell you.
772
:Okay.
773
:Two.
774
:And I do think judges realize that
also all the people, and you don't
775
:get mad at me, all the people that
are making those sort of posts are
776
:the attorneys that are probably
making between 50 and $75,000 a year.
777
:You know, I mean, no one will go harder
for the system than the worker bee
778
:that's making 50 to $75,000 a year.
779
:That like gets a little bit of clout.
780
:'cause they get invited to a Christmas
party at the judges like guest house.
781
:You know what I mean?
782
:Hugh: Well, or the ones that
are taking court appointments.
783
:Christine: Yeah,
784
:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
785
:Oh, these are, I mean, I think all the
positive comments were court appointments.
786
:Maybe not one attorney or two.
787
:Hugh: Oh, I, oh, I agree.
788
:Mm-hmm.
789
:And then there's some of the same
people that leave positive reviews for
790
:court systems, which Google reviews.
791
:Wow.
792
:Yeah.
793
:Google reviews for, for.
794
:Municipal court systems.
795
:That's some apple polishing.
796
:That's amazing.
797
:Christine: Oh my goodness.
798
:And so also, let's just
debate to the ethics of Judge
799
:Stone saying that about us.
800
:Like, what was she one thinking?
801
:I know people that are waiting, and I
know numerous attorneys that are waiting
802
:for orders from her from March and April.
803
:But what was she thinking, do you think?
804
:Hugh: I read it as being defensive
about our, our roll calls with the
805
:judges that when she's not on the bench
and we're pointing out who, well, we
806
:haven't pointed out specifically which
divisions are there, but we are pointing
807
:out that there are a lot of people
that are not there in the middle of the
808
:workday on multiple days of the week.
809
:Mm-hmm.
810
:It seemed the, the tone to me was,
well, I would respond to this, but
811
:I'm way too busy working on, you know,
my job as a, a family court judge.
812
:Christine: I'm way too busy, but I
have time to post on social media.
813
:Well,
814
:Hugh: it.
815
:Christine: I, I just, you
know, bless her heart again,
816
:that's gonna be my new hashtag.
817
:Bless all their hearts.
818
:Seriously though, Jessica Stone we would
like for you to, we would like for all
819
:the judges to do a good job in court.
820
:Seriously, there are families and children
that it's literally life or death.
821
:And so I hope that instead of getting
on Facebook or taking the time to get on
822
:Reddit and talk about me, that maybe there
are a lot of free CLEs in family law.
823
:And we talk a lot about the rules
of evidence and things that can make
824
:the system better on this podcast.
825
:And I do on TikTok as well.
826
:So you could, you know, certainly
subscribe to our channel.
827
:Maybe you'll learn a
thing or two, I swear.
828
:Parties, in turn, cameras on.
829
:Speak to people with respect.
830
:You got anything else?
831
:Hugh: Oh, gross.
832
:Revenue of a business versus income.
833
:Christine: I can't.
834
:That's
835
:Hugh: a, that's a, that's a good one.
836
:Christine: Oh my goodness.
837
:Actually we do, we'll do
a little segment on that.
838
:We should, because gr Did you
guys know that gross income
839
:and net income are different?
840
:Hugh: I
841
:bet you did.
842
:Christine: Oh my goodness.
843
:And so, I am,
844
:Hugh: it's so bad and it's, it just
seems so petty to say, and it seems like
845
:we're making this up, but we're not.
846
:This is the stuff that we struggled with
and that people would spend $50,000 Oh.
847
:And we would have to appeal.
848
:And you, , a regular appeal on something
property related that's not expedited is,
849
:is a year and a halfs a year and a half.
850
:It has been for the last 10, 15 years.
851
:They take a year and a half, and then
you end up back in front of the same
852
:judge and have to politely explain that.
853
:This is business revenue on the tax
return that my business made $7 million.
854
:Mm-hmm.
855
:I have a salary of $75,000.
856
:We have lots of people
that work for the business.
857
:I didn't make millions of dollars.
858
:Like there is a difference.
859
:This is a tax return, but
it's, it was shocking how often
860
:that happened that Oh yeah.
861
:Someone could come in with one page of a
business tax return with a motion and say,
862
:this person makes $50,000 a month and you
can see from this business tax return.
863
:So they should pay maintenance.
864
:And then you walk outta motion
hour and they'd be ordered
865
:to pay all kinds of money.
866
:And you'd have a hearing
six, seven months later.
867
:Yep.
868
:And it would be a temporary order.
869
:And there's nothing you could do
because a judge doesn't understand
870
:that someone's business where
they might have 50 employees.
871
:Makes money, but that doesn't mean
that that's the income of the party.
872
:Christine: Oh, y'all,
you have No, it's mind
873
:Hugh: blowing.
874
:Had
875
:Christine: idea how often
judges do not consider payroll.
876
:Like they don't deduct payroll
of a company, any expenses.
877
:They calculate child support and
maintenance and I mean obviously the
878
:other expenses too are egregious,
but payroll of other employees, other
879
:constituents of Louisville, it's just
a fundamental lack of understanding of,
880
:, Hugh: But it's not that, okay,
somebody needs to sit down and
881
:learn how to re a tax return.
882
:The statute says for
self-employed individuals,
883
:here's how you calculate income.
884
:So the legislature has given us a black
and white list of things to look at.
885
:Yeah, you take the gross revenue and you
subtract out legitimate business expenses.
886
:It's not, you don't take the gross
revenue and say, that's the income
887
:and I'm gonna, I'm gonna divide up
all the property and order maintenance
888
:and child support based on that.
889
:But
890
:Christine: it
891
:sure should not rocket science.
892
:Hugh: science.
893
:Christine: And that goes to, we talked
last time about these judges not
894
:having had clients sometimes because
they went from the prosecutor's
895
:standpoint and Jessica Stone was a prior
prosecutor at the district court level.
896
:But just understanding
how companies even work.
897
:I mean, when we were
practicing, I was solo.
898
:I did have a firm, you had a huge firm.
899
:But there is a shit ton of
business decisions that have
900
:to be made on top of clients.
901
:Hugh: I remember we had a, an issue of
substance abuse in a company that was
902
:owned by the husband and the wife and
the wife had access to, she ran the
903
:books and had access to the cash and
control of things, whereas the, the
904
:husband, my client did the operations,
but it was the wife that had the.
905
:Substance abuse issue and was emptying the
bank accounts and was spending money on
906
:things and was, was going to destroy the
business, ultimately destroy the business.
907
:So ultimately, when a business is the
subject of litigation and it has to
908
:be preserved, the court will basically
appoint someone to run the business
909
:or to oversee, to make sure it's
preserved and not run into the ground.
910
:So in order to protect the company from.
911
:What ultimately was its demise.
912
:I filed a motion to place the company in
receivership so the court could administer
913
:and monitor the running of the company.
914
:So its assets were not wasted.
915
:July 29 Cam HW: Yeah.
916
:So
917
:Hugh: simple motion.
918
:Oh, there were two motions.
919
:One for contempt because she had
the wife had violated a bunch of
920
:orders about spending business
money on personal pursuits.
921
:And then to I also asked to place
the company in receivership.
922
:And, and
923
:Christine: you explained
all this in your motion.
924
:I'm sure I
925
:Hugh: explained it in the motion.
926
:I talked about how it worked.
927
:I appeared at motion hour
to make the argument.
928
:I was absolutely convinced that the
judge had not even looked at the motion
929
:when I asked to place to appoint a
receiver to help run the business.
930
:I think I had explained
how it had to work.
931
:'cause the business actually
was located in Florida.
932
:Okay.
933
:So we were gonna have
to involve a Florida.
934
:The question from the judge
was, what's a receiver?
935
:Christine: What Judge?
936
:Hugh: TikTok judge.
937
:So it got denied and ultimately they.
938
:Used up all the cash.
939
:The only thing left from that
business were a couple contracts,
940
:which were still valuable.
941
:Yeah.
942
:And they divided up who got to serve
the contracts for this company, but they
943
:divided up the actual physical property of
a company, which everyone knows is usually
944
:not the bulk of the value of a company.
945
:And it was because all the cash went away.
946
:There just wasn't an understanding
of what a court could do.
947
:It was, I was faced with,
well that's, that's bad.
948
:Let's get a hearing.
949
:What?
950
:I can't do anything.
951
:What do you want me to do, Mr.
952
:Barrow?
953
:What do you want me to do?
954
:Like, what do you mean?
955
:You can't
956
:Christine: order someone to not dissipate
the marital estate if you can't do
957
:it as a family court judge who can,
958
:Hugh: well, they did.
959
:They ordered it.
960
:They were violating it, and so we
couldn't get them to stop violating it.
961
:We filed a motion for contempt.
962
:We are getting a hearing, but in the
interim, this is the marital asset.
963
:Yeah.
964
:That's everything that actually owned
the property where the parties lived.
965
:July 29 Cam HW: Mm-hmm.
966
:It was
967
:Hugh: the entire marital estate.
968
:This was a marriage without kids.
969
:You have to stop it from being
wasted until you can figure out Yeah.
970
:What is going on And.
971
:It just, , it was like my, I was
just an being annoying by asking
972
:the court to actually do something
about it and was just got nothing and
973
:the parties ended up with nothing.
974
:Christine: Which I mean also on top of
that, which is horrific in and of itself.
975
:And if the court, the court absolutely
has the authority to put things in
976
:place or incarcerate people and you
can have a quick turnaround for a
977
:hearing, but also my God should be
978
:July 29 wide CM: able
979
:Christine: to, yeah.
980
:They have the power to.
981
:Yeah.
982
:But my God, what if something would've
happened if you're dealing with substance
983
:abuse and someone had lost their life too.
984
:Hugh: Sure.
985
:Or a kid.
986
:Yeah.
987
:I mean, if you were dealing with.
988
:Kids issues.
989
:Well, what do you want me to do?
990
:I would imagine I wouldn't be faced
with the same thing related to kids.
991
:'cause judges don't mind making rulings
from motion hour on the bench without
992
:a hearing about people's kids, but
protecting a piece of property where there
993
:is a clear system for how to do this.
994
:Mm-hmm.
995
:I mean, when courts do this all the
time, when you're dealing with naming
996
:a company as part of a debt dispute.
997
:Yep.
998
:Or a bankruptcy, a liquidation, there's,
there's all kinds of cases where a
999
:judge has to appoint someone to run a
company or to oversee it, to make sure
:
00:42:15,571 --> 00:42:18,901
that it's protected until the interest
in that company can be resolved.
:
00:42:19,294 --> 00:42:22,864
Christine: Otherwise, there's no
incentive for someone to follow the rules.
:
00:42:22,864 --> 00:42:28,054
And I get that a lot in family
court in particular, that perjury,
:
00:42:28,144 --> 00:42:29,524
you know, is not really a thing.
:
00:42:29,524 --> 00:42:31,414
People lie all the time in family court.
:
00:42:31,414 --> 00:42:33,244
There are no consequences for it.
:
00:42:33,484 --> 00:42:36,574
Now, obviously our perjury
statute is in Kentucky.
:
00:42:36,574 --> 00:42:40,024
I'm not necessarily saying people that
lie in family court should go to jail.
:
00:42:40,024 --> 00:42:42,964
I don't really believe in
incarcerating people to the extent,
:
00:42:42,964 --> 00:42:46,024
like over incarcerating people
or utilizing that as a tool.
:
00:42:46,204 --> 00:42:49,534
That being said, if there
aren't any consequences, it's
:
00:42:49,534 --> 00:42:51,124
almost like it's encouraged.
:
00:42:51,226 --> 00:42:53,516
Hugh: That's exactly what
the result of this felt like.
:
00:42:53,516 --> 00:42:53,696
Yeah.
:
00:42:53,786 --> 00:42:56,096
That the judge denied that motion.
:
00:42:56,096 --> 00:43:02,576
She set a hearing for contempt, which was,
you know, probably months, months away.
:
00:43:03,086 --> 00:43:07,766
And behavior not only continued as
normal, but it became more brazen.
:
00:43:07,886 --> 00:43:07,976
Yep.
:
00:43:08,006 --> 00:43:10,466
Because, oh, well you tried
to stop me now you can't.
:
00:43:10,526 --> 00:43:12,026
And that was the end of it.
:
00:43:12,026 --> 00:43:14,576
You can't go recapture that money.
:
00:43:14,685 --> 00:43:15,034
Christine: Right.
:
00:43:15,154 --> 00:43:16,504
Half of nothing is nothing.
:
00:43:16,795 --> 00:43:17,066
Hugh: Yeah.
:
00:43:17,066 --> 00:43:17,606
It's gone.
:
00:43:17,721 --> 00:43:18,011
Christine: Gone.
:
00:43:18,176 --> 00:43:18,746
Oh my goodness.
:
00:43:18,746 --> 00:43:18,840
And
:
00:43:18,874 --> 00:43:21,754
obviously that judge has no business,
in my opinion, in my opinion.
:
00:43:21,754 --> 00:43:24,254
So low opinion doing high asset cases.
:
00:43:24,254 --> 00:43:27,549
We don't have many on the bench
that have the, brain function, the
:
00:43:27,549 --> 00:43:32,149
wherewithal to understand complex
financial issues, in my opinion.
:
00:43:32,149 --> 00:43:36,809
Again but also that goes to the fact
that I am, I gotta look up how long
:
00:43:36,809 --> 00:43:39,809
I've been actually out of it, but
I'd say over two years at this point.
:
00:43:40,199 --> 00:43:43,559
And you're four or five months
maybe since your retirement,
:
00:43:43,559 --> 00:43:43,560
Hugh: four
:
00:43:43,686 --> 00:43:44,166
Four months
:
00:43:44,256 --> 00:43:45,246
Christine: working your ass off.
:
00:43:45,456 --> 00:43:45,546
Hugh: Yep.
:
00:43:45,816 --> 00:43:50,496
Christine: But , the role or like the
transition from litigator to advocate
:
00:43:50,496 --> 00:43:56,436
is one that I kind of want to, if you're
not weird with it, do like a touch
:
00:43:56,436 --> 00:44:01,086
point every podcast or once a week
kind of about like how it's changed.
:
00:44:01,116 --> 00:44:01,806
Do you know what I'm saying?
:
00:44:01,806 --> 00:44:01,896
Sure.
:
00:44:02,076 --> 00:44:02,466
Yeah.
:
00:44:02,471 --> 00:44:04,566
Because like for example,
yesterday when you watched
:
00:44:04,566 --> 00:44:06,096
those reunification camp videos
:
00:44:06,793 --> 00:44:07,153
, Hugh: Yep.
:
00:44:07,243 --> 00:44:10,843
I still jump very easily
back into advocacy mode and I
:
00:44:10,843 --> 00:44:12,193
was blown away that, that I.
:
00:44:13,468 --> 00:44:18,118
Well, the biggest takeaway right now
from me was that I had my nose down and
:
00:44:18,118 --> 00:44:22,558
was just working my cases for so long
that I was blind to all these things
:
00:44:22,558 --> 00:44:23,633
that were going on behind the scenes.
:
00:44:23,633 --> 00:44:23,913
Mm-hmm.
:
00:44:23,993 --> 00:44:27,298
Or were going on in other jurisdictions
that I've now learned through this
:
00:44:27,298 --> 00:44:31,508
project with you that I Yeah, it
was, but that was still shocking.
:
00:44:31,921 --> 00:44:32,161
Christine: Yeah.
:
00:44:32,161 --> 00:44:33,271
And it's the same with me.
:
00:44:33,271 --> 00:44:36,391
Like I really, I know this is
so naive to all the listeners.
:
00:44:36,451 --> 00:44:39,631
I thought we had a Louisville
family court problem.
:
00:44:40,021 --> 00:44:42,511
I did not realize it was
a family court problem.
:
00:44:42,691 --> 00:44:45,981
I didn't realize it was , the judiciary
is out of control and there's no
:
00:44:45,981 --> 00:44:48,231
judicial accountability problem.
:
00:44:48,291 --> 00:44:52,951
And yesterday we had a strategy meeting
and had some atrium beers, which
:
00:44:52,951 --> 00:44:56,791
were delicious at, that's a local
brewery here, but I showed him the
:
00:44:56,791 --> 00:45:01,694
reunification video from Sebastian and
I think it's Amaya Outta California
:
00:45:01,988 --> 00:45:02,678
Hugh: Reunification Camp.
:
00:45:02,948 --> 00:45:03,518
Christine: Yes.
:
00:45:03,518 --> 00:45:03,578
Yeah.
:
00:45:03,888 --> 00:45:04,848
If I misspoke, sorry.
:
00:45:04,968 --> 00:45:05,388
Hugh: No, no, no.
:
00:45:05,388 --> 00:45:06,768
Just the, the camp part was
:
00:45:06,801 --> 00:45:08,111
what was shocking to me that.
:
00:45:08,523 --> 00:45:08,763
Yes.
:
00:45:08,763 --> 00:45:13,743
In order to heal a relationship between
a child that may have been abused by
:
00:45:13,743 --> 00:45:17,193
a parent, you send them, you isolate
them from the parent that they're
:
00:45:17,193 --> 00:45:23,043
bonded to and send them to a camp for
intensive one-on-one time for weeks.
:
00:45:23,253 --> 00:45:23,403
Christine: Mm-hmm.
:
00:45:23,643 --> 00:45:27,333
Hugh: With the parent who, you
know, allegedly was abusing
:
00:45:27,491 --> 00:45:30,031
Christine: or that they were
allegedly alienated from.
:
00:45:30,251 --> 00:45:32,231
It's just, it was, it's a shit show.
:
00:45:32,291 --> 00:45:34,241
They've been outlawed in California.
:
00:45:34,451 --> 00:45:38,821
But I think that's why we have so many
people in the family court reform or
:
00:45:38,821 --> 00:45:45,161
abolished family court movement that
have such strong beliefs is because some
:
00:45:45,161 --> 00:45:48,491
of this stuff is happening and a lot of
it's happening, like to pro se litigants
:
00:45:48,521 --> 00:45:50,231
and a lot of attorneys just don't know.
:
00:45:50,231 --> 00:45:51,131
I had no idea.
:
00:45:51,251 --> 00:45:52,661
I had no idea when I was practicing.
:
00:45:53,025 --> 00:45:53,163
Hugh: Yeah.
:
00:45:53,403 --> 00:45:56,283
I mean, I'm interested to learn
more about where that came from.
:
00:45:56,283 --> 00:45:58,383
Did it come from a legislative initiative?
:
00:45:58,383 --> 00:46:01,863
Did it come from state politics
or did it come from the bench?
:
00:46:01,893 --> 00:46:04,353
I mean, a lot of those, when you get into.
:
00:46:05,133 --> 00:46:08,493
Certain kinds of camps or
reprogramming and things, those
:
00:46:08,493 --> 00:46:11,553
usually are not coming from court.
:
00:46:11,553 --> 00:46:15,603
Those are coming from some political
agenda and written into state laws.
:
00:46:15,603 --> 00:46:17,443
So that that would be interesting.
:
00:46:17,546 --> 00:46:22,676
Christine: from an industry that
makes a shit ton of money in certain
:
00:46:22,676 --> 00:46:26,126
reunification therapy tactics.
:
00:46:26,546 --> 00:46:28,976
It's just like the
troubled teen industry Now.
:
00:46:28,976 --> 00:46:32,216
That's something, it's one of those
things where when you talk about
:
00:46:32,246 --> 00:46:35,636
it in family court, people can sort
of label you one way or the other.
:
00:46:35,636 --> 00:46:38,396
But if you talk about the troubled
teen industry, I think now as a
:
00:46:38,396 --> 00:46:42,296
society, we absolutely acknowledge
that the camps that Paris Hilton
:
00:46:42,296 --> 00:46:44,516
were going to were disgusting, right?
:
00:46:44,516 --> 00:46:47,906
I mean, and there was a lot of federal
matching federal funds were given.
:
00:46:47,906 --> 00:46:52,016
And then there was also the privatization
of it where you had wealthy people with
:
00:46:52,016 --> 00:46:55,616
children that were quote unquote out
of control, and they were sold a dream
:
00:46:55,616 --> 00:46:58,676
that just wasn't true and they were
just laughing all the way to the bank.
:
00:46:59,066 --> 00:47:02,306
But the notion that when
you have an industry.
:
00:47:02,651 --> 00:47:06,101
That is ripe for money, like
with these custodial evaluators
:
00:47:06,101 --> 00:47:09,491
and some of these treatments for
people going through family court.
:
00:47:09,821 --> 00:47:13,051
It just lends to the fact,
or it goes to the fact that
:
00:47:13,051 --> 00:47:14,521
it could be easily exploited.
:
00:47:14,731 --> 00:47:15,931
God bless, I can't speak today.
:
00:47:15,988 --> 00:47:17,368
Hugh: Yeah, no, I, I agree.
:
00:47:17,368 --> 00:47:18,208
I mean, we see it.
:
00:47:18,598 --> 00:47:19,078
We see it.
:
00:47:19,078 --> 00:47:20,758
You see it in domestic violence cases.
:
00:47:20,758 --> 00:47:20,878
Yeah.
:
00:47:20,878 --> 00:47:21,328
As well.
:
00:47:21,358 --> 00:47:26,008
You see just cookie cutter solutions
that, okay, you have to go to this,
:
00:47:26,038 --> 00:47:29,698
go through this program, and then we
will just, you know that here's your
:
00:47:29,698 --> 00:47:32,218
package, here's the package deal of
what you're gonna get and what you're
:
00:47:32,218 --> 00:47:36,448
gonna go through, and that it certainly
doesn't help or solve anything there.
:
00:47:36,448 --> 00:47:40,228
There are so many programs that people
go through with the court system,
:
00:47:40,588 --> 00:47:45,268
and I am, I remember one single time
in my career that someone told me.
:
00:47:45,668 --> 00:47:49,358
That they really found the
court's families in transition
:
00:47:49,568 --> 00:47:51,458
parenting program to be helpful.
:
00:47:51,758 --> 00:47:54,818
And my only thought about that
was, oh, bless your heart.
:
00:47:55,238 --> 00:47:55,358
Amen.
:
00:47:55,658 --> 00:47:58,508
Like, how in the world did
you find that to be helpful?
:
00:47:58,508 --> 00:48:00,548
There's a lot of feel good stuff.
:
00:48:00,548 --> 00:48:03,248
There's a lot of jump through hoops,
there's a lot of money changing hands.
:
00:48:03,278 --> 00:48:03,368
Mm-hmm.
:
00:48:03,668 --> 00:48:04,928
About these programs.
:
00:48:05,911 --> 00:48:09,571
Christine: there's a prosecutor out of
New York that talks about, there were two
:
00:48:09,571 --> 00:48:10,711
different programs he mentioned there.
:
00:48:10,711 --> 00:48:12,481
There's batters intervention program.
:
00:48:12,486 --> 00:48:12,586
Mm-hmm.
:
00:48:12,666 --> 00:48:15,301
Which if you have a domestic
violence order issued against you,
:
00:48:15,301 --> 00:48:19,291
you're required by state law to
attend batterers intervention.
:
00:48:19,291 --> 00:48:20,581
And it's a part of your court order.
:
00:48:20,801 --> 00:48:23,531
And obviously guess who's
making money on those?
:
00:48:23,861 --> 00:48:27,581
But there's a prosecutor out in New
York that's like, we have never had
:
00:48:27,581 --> 00:48:30,371
higher rates of domestic violence,
but we have more people go into
:
00:48:30,371 --> 00:48:31,931
these batters intervention programs.
:
00:48:31,991 --> 00:48:32,921
Do they work?
:
00:48:33,351 --> 00:48:36,381
And then also the Families in
Transition is a program that
:
00:48:36,381 --> 00:48:37,851
we have here in Kentucky.
:
00:48:38,061 --> 00:48:42,141
. You file for divorce, you're
required to go to this class.
:
00:48:42,171 --> 00:48:44,991
That is just complete, in my opinion.
:
00:48:45,051 --> 00:48:45,561
Bullshit.
:
00:48:46,288 --> 00:48:46,588
Hugh: Yeah.
:
00:48:46,588 --> 00:48:52,098
I, you know, to a point you made earlier,
, I'm not an abolished family court.
:
00:48:52,833 --> 00:48:57,003
Type I I think that there are very
intelligent people on the bench that
:
00:48:57,003 --> 00:49:00,393
could handle things, and I think the
things that, what frustrated me most
:
00:49:00,393 --> 00:49:04,203
in my litigation practice were the
things that were messed up were simple
:
00:49:04,203 --> 00:49:08,538
things that you didn't have to be super
intelligent to understand and that they
:
00:49:08,853 --> 00:49:11,283
are experts that you get involved in.
:
00:49:11,313 --> 00:49:15,573
If you have a high asset case,
you, you know, I know the judges
:
00:49:15,573 --> 00:49:17,373
have thousands of cases, they do.
:
00:49:17,733 --> 00:49:21,753
I you want to have experts that can
crunch the numbers because the judges
:
00:49:21,783 --> 00:49:24,963
simply are, you're never going to
have judges that have time to do that.
:
00:49:24,963 --> 00:49:30,363
So it, I don't, didn't ever think
that it was an issue of intelligence.
:
00:49:30,723 --> 00:49:35,093
And I also think that, I also think
that there is something to be said
:
00:49:35,093 --> 00:49:39,353
for when people start going through
a divorce, some basic education on
:
00:49:39,353 --> 00:49:42,563
how to speak with one another, how to
co-parent how to do all of that stuff.
:
00:49:42,563 --> 00:49:46,133
But as soon as you turn it into a
factory, that's super cookie cutter.
:
00:49:46,463 --> 00:49:48,653
And it's sort of like when
they send people to traffic
:
00:49:48,653 --> 00:49:50,153
school for a traffic violation.
:
00:49:50,243 --> 00:49:50,453
Oh my gosh.
:
00:49:50,483 --> 00:49:53,483
You're gonna go in on Saturday morning,
you're gonna look at your phone and play
:
00:49:53,483 --> 00:49:54,893
games, not pay attention to anything.
:
00:49:54,893 --> 00:49:56,303
You're gonna get your
certificate and you're gonna
:
00:49:56,303 --> 00:49:57,503
get out of it and move forward.
:
00:49:57,848 --> 00:49:59,198
That's what was happening.
:
00:49:59,198 --> 00:50:02,378
And those same people would go and
bad mouth each other the next day
:
00:50:02,708 --> 00:50:04,088
and not follow any of the rules.
:
00:50:04,088 --> 00:50:06,128
So it was an ineffective system.
:
00:50:06,218 --> 00:50:06,283
Christine: Mm-hmm.
:
00:50:06,701 --> 00:50:10,211
Well I just think if you put money in
anything then it's gonna lead to the
:
00:50:10,211 --> 00:50:13,901
possibility of the C word corruption.
:
00:50:13,901 --> 00:50:17,051
And I hate to use that word 'cause
I do think it's so polarizing.
:
00:50:17,381 --> 00:50:20,261
But I really think you have to
in some regards follow the money.
:
00:50:20,261 --> 00:50:23,501
And there are just a lot of people
with their hands out when it
:
00:50:23,501 --> 00:50:27,221
comes to family court and also
other court ordered treatments.
:
00:50:27,221 --> 00:50:30,431
I mean, arc is a huge one, which
we can't go down that rabbit hole,
:
00:50:30,431 --> 00:50:33,911
but in eastern Kentucky, the people
of Eastern Kentucky, I love y'all.
:
00:50:33,911 --> 00:50:38,081
I know I need to do more of a deep dive
on the stuff I said I would before, but
:
00:50:38,111 --> 00:50:41,861
the exploitation of people going through
the court system with court ordered
:
00:50:41,861 --> 00:50:46,301
treatment, whether it be substance abuse
treatment, anger management, treatment,
:
00:50:46,301 --> 00:50:52,301
batters intervention, DUI classes, I
mean, you know how much it, how difficult
:
00:50:52,301 --> 00:50:56,831
it is to get a license with the state
to be able to teach the DUI class.
:
00:50:56,891 --> 00:50:59,261
And it's because there's so
much fucking money in it.
:
00:51:00,583 --> 00:51:00,733
Hugh: Yeah.
:
00:51:00,733 --> 00:51:01,753
That doesn't surprise me.
:
00:51:01,753 --> 00:51:05,413
My, my experience with it though
is that it's sort of similar
:
00:51:05,413 --> 00:51:07,003
to privatizing anything else.
:
00:51:07,003 --> 00:51:10,723
When the government has a purpose
for something and then they privatize
:
00:51:10,723 --> 00:51:12,793
it, the purpose then changes.
:
00:51:12,853 --> 00:51:18,953
If you have a private for-profit person
or organization providing a service, the
:
00:51:18,953 --> 00:51:20,783
goal is no longer to provide the service.
:
00:51:20,783 --> 00:51:21,318
The mm-hmm.
:
00:51:21,403 --> 00:51:22,433
Goal is to make money.
:
00:51:22,433 --> 00:51:26,963
So you're going to look for ways to
meet the bullet points of what you're,
:
00:51:26,993 --> 00:51:29,663
what what you're told you have to do
to get the money, and you're gonna
:
00:51:29,663 --> 00:51:33,173
look for ways to do it as quickly and
efficiently and as much of a you know,
:
00:51:33,173 --> 00:51:36,503
just crank people through the system
as possible and it loses its purpose.
:
00:51:36,503 --> 00:51:40,133
It's the same way when you privatize
jails, you start running into Yep.
:
00:51:40,133 --> 00:51:43,583
People starving , and nutrition
issues and every, you know,
:
00:51:43,583 --> 00:51:44,753
corners cut on everything else.
:
00:51:44,753 --> 00:51:48,323
It's, I, that's sort of how I
saw it, was that okay, this may
:
00:51:48,323 --> 00:51:49,493
have started from a good idea.
:
00:51:49,863 --> 00:51:52,023
But this is absolutely ineffectual.
:
00:51:52,293 --> 00:51:56,833
It's become an industry that I remember
at a time where the families in transition
:
00:51:56,833 --> 00:52:02,023
program, we were asking regularly
the judges to waive the program.
:
00:52:02,053 --> 00:52:02,293
Yes.
:
00:52:02,353 --> 00:52:06,733
And we would waive it where, let's say
your child was 17 and a half years old.
:
00:52:06,733 --> 00:52:08,503
The parties had been
separated for five years.
:
00:52:08,503 --> 00:52:12,313
They've been co-parenting very
well, but hadn't gotten around
:
00:52:12,313 --> 00:52:13,453
to finalizing the divorce.
:
00:52:13,453 --> 00:52:14,473
They have a Yep.
:
00:52:14,473 --> 00:52:17,263
An uncontested divorce where
they're not fighting about anything.
:
00:52:17,263 --> 00:52:20,443
They may be good friends, they may
still live in the same household,
:
00:52:20,863 --> 00:52:24,643
and you would ask to wave families in
transition because number one, by the
:
00:52:24,643 --> 00:52:26,683
time they get in, the kid's gonna be 18.
:
00:52:26,683 --> 00:52:27,673
It's not gonna matter.
:
00:52:27,733 --> 00:52:29,953
And they don't need it, or
they just don't need it.
:
00:52:30,133 --> 00:52:33,943
And so we had, for a long time it was
being allowed Uhhuh, it was no big deal.
:
00:52:33,943 --> 00:52:35,203
And it was a smart decision.
:
00:52:35,263 --> 00:52:35,383
Yep.
:
00:52:35,413 --> 00:52:36,553
Let's move these people through.
:
00:52:36,553 --> 00:52:37,123
Let's get it.
:
00:52:37,123 --> 00:52:40,123
We're not waiting for these certificates
for people who clearly know how to raise
:
00:52:40,123 --> 00:52:43,213
a successful child, but the providers.
:
00:52:43,288 --> 00:52:44,668
It got that changed.
:
00:52:44,668 --> 00:52:44,758
Yep.
:
00:52:44,878 --> 00:52:48,178
And made it to where you couldn't have
just complained so much because the
:
00:52:48,178 --> 00:52:52,798
revenue was less so, and everybody had
to go through it, no matter whether
:
00:52:52,798 --> 00:52:56,638
you needed it, whether it was a
total waste of time, all of a sudden
:
00:52:56,638 --> 00:52:57,868
you couldn't get out of it anymore.
:
00:52:57,958 --> 00:52:58,078
Yep.
:
00:52:58,078 --> 00:53:02,038
No matter what the circumstances, you
had to continue to attend because the
:
00:53:02,038 --> 00:53:04,798
providers got mad that less people
were coming through the system.
:
00:53:04,918 --> 00:53:05,158
Christine: Yep.
:
00:53:05,218 --> 00:53:09,111
And that goes to you letting
me say my favorite quote ever.
:
00:53:09,111 --> 00:53:12,501
The road to hell is paved
with good intentions.
:
00:53:12,921 --> 00:53:13,371
All right.
:
00:53:13,371 --> 00:53:15,861
Y'all judgy y.com.
:
00:53:16,131 --> 00:53:19,581
Remember, if you like what we're
doing, like share, subscribe,
:
00:53:19,641 --> 00:53:24,831
YouTube, Spotify, iHeartRadio, apple
Podcast, you name it, we're on it.
:
00:53:24,831 --> 00:53:29,301
I'm Kentucky Christine on
TikTok and Instagram, judge y.
:
00:53:29,301 --> 00:53:32,571
We appreciate y'all so,
so, so, so, so, so much.
:
00:53:32,871 --> 00:53:33,291
All right.
:
00:53:33,291 --> 00:53:33,651
Bye.
:
00:53:33,716 --> 00:53:34,066
Hugh: Peace.
:
00:53:44,388 --> 00:53:44,678
Yeah.
:
00:53:44,788 --> 00:53:45,078
Yeah.
:
00:53:46,543 --> 00:53:46,603
We
