Episode 5

full
Published on:

29th Jul 2025

EP 05 AI is Coming

The JudgeMental Podcast – EP 05 AI is Coming

Hosts: Hugh & Christine

Episode Summary:

In this candid and insightful episode, Hugh and Christine, the minds behind Judge-y, dive deep into the realities of the court system, judicial accountability, and the challenges facing both practitioners and the public. They discuss their recent experience observing local judges, the persistent backlog in district courts, and the impact of COVID-era scheduling on justice delivery.

Key Topics:

  • Judicial Attendance & Accountability: The hosts share their observations on the low number of judges present in court and what that means for public trust and case backlogs.
  • The 10-Day Rule & Scheduling Issues: How attempts to waive the 10-day preliminary hearing rule affected court efficiency and defendants’ rights.
  • Courtroom Practices: The quirks of local court systems, from handwritten “jackets” to the lack of electronic processes.
  • Prosecutorial Policies: The impact of hardline policies on case outcomes, especially for vulnerable defendants.
  • Bar Association Critique: A frank discussion about the Kentucky Bar Association’s role, mandatory CLEs, and the mental health of attorneys.
  • Legal Advertising & Professional Culture: The evolution of attorney advertising rules and the tension between tradition and innovation.
  • AI & the Future of Law: Predictions on how artificial intelligence will transform legal practice, from document review to judicial analysis.
  • Judicial Orders & Staff Attorneys: The ethics and realities of staff attorneys drafting orders and the use of signature stamps.
  • Public Perception & Social Media: How speaking out about the judiciary can provoke strong reactions, both online and within the legal community.
  • Listener Engagement: The hosts read and react to audience comments, including a poll about courtroom attendance and some lighthearted banter about martinis and Burger Week.

Notable Quotes:

  • “Absolute power corrupts absolutely, regardless of the scale that it’s on.”
  • “If attorneys could run businesses like a business, they could innovate, they could cut the cost down, which would then trickle down somewhat.”
  • “AI is going to change everything about law practice in the next few years.”

Call to Action:

Stay tuned for updates on Judge-y and the push for greater transparency in the courts. Visit judgey.com for more information, and don’t forget to follow, rate, and review the podcast!

Connect with Us:

  • Website: judgey.com
Transcript
Speaker:

You are listening to

The Judgemental Podcast.

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We're Hugh and Christine, the Minds

Behind Judgy, the revolutionary app

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that empowers you to judge the judges.

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It's pastime for judicial accountability

and transparency within the courts.

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Prepare for sharp insights, candid

critiques, and unshakable honesty from

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two lawyers determined to save the system.

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We need some justice.

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Justice, my fine justice.

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And I wanna ring, be in public.

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I wanna ring, be in public crowd.

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Yeah.

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Christine: welcome.

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Yesterday, two 50 to three 10 ish.

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Right?

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We had eight of the 39 judges there.

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What do you think about it?

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Hugh: I am not surprised if you recall

when we first talked about it, you know,

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that that was a comment that I made.

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If we were talking about three o'clock.

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Oh, I said three o'clock on a Friday.

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Yeah.

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But my experience has been later in

the afternoon, the less you're going

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to have by a pretty, you know, this

is, there's a drastic difference

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between one 30 and three o'clock.,

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I've always found.

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So I , wasn't super shocked, but now

that I'm thinking about it in the

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context of these are the courts that

are supposed to be serving people.

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This is this, these are the courts that

we're supposed to be giving hearings

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to my clients who had urgent needs.

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Mm-hmm.

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And it's not just me as a practitioner

trying to get one thing done

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at a time over there in court.

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It's disappointing.

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It's , very disappointing

that's how it is.

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Christine: It's extremely disappointing

and I think in particular, there's

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no excuse whatsoever for district

court to have for judges there.

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District court should be open

most of the time because like I

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said last time, they're not really

doing this amount of writing orders

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like you do in Circuit and family.

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They're not doing these massive, , trials

and they're mainly doing, , preliminary

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hearings which get sent up pre-trials,

pleas if they have a jury trial.

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Which I mean, how rare is

that to even happen nowadays?

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I, we actually, we may have seen one.

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I'm not positive That could have been

a guardianship trial when we saw those

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three lawyers outside District Court.

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Hugh: Yes.

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I have no idea.

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'cause it was a confidential case

and so the only thing I could think

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it would be a guardianship trial.

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I think

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that happens pretty often.

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I think guardianships are pretty common

and you have hearings regularly and they

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are always going to be confidential.

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So

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Christine: guardianships

are super depressing.

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It's very much think in Kentucky we don't

have conservatorships, at least I don't

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know that we have conservatorship, do we?

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It's a guardianship.

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Like Britney Spears would've

been under a guardianship.

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She would've never, it would've never

happened in Kentucky, 'cause a jury

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would've never done it, in my opinion.

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But we do have that safeguard in

Kentucky, which I think is extraordinary.

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Now, they're the most depressing

things to watch, though.

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Hugh: They can be.

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I mean, a lot of times, I've always

thought that probate matters.

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Guardianship matters are some of

the only things that can match the

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emotion and, and just, lack of better

word, craziness of family court.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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. It's just such a different world

than litigating financial matters

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or contracts and things like that.

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People get angry about that.

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But it is so much different when

you're dealing with family dynamics and

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people are fighting over who is best

qualified to take care of a loved one.

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And it's not just one

person versus the other.

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It might be one whole side of the

family versus the other side of

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the family, and they're all there.

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And it's, I mean, it's, it really is wild.

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Christine: Yeah.

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In district court, a lot of it,

especially like in my time it

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would be theft at Walmart, theft

at Walmart, theft at Walmart, you

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know, people, obviously stealing's

bad, but substance abuse issues.

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But it's not anything that creates

this visceral reaction mm-hmm.

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From the judge or from the even parties.

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You know, oftentimes by the time

you're charged it, and get to

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court, it could be months later and

then you're getting probated time.

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And so I just struggle with the fact,

I think district court in particular,

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in 2021, I believe really when they

tried to pull that whole 10 day thing

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Hugh: let's, yeah, we, you've

mentioned that a couple times.

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If, explain what was going on at that

time because it was something that I.

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I had heard about it at the time,

but I had forgotten and I didn't

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do a deep dive at the time.

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But now learning more about

it is really quite appalling.

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, Christine: So in 2021, , obviously

there was a backlog of cases from COVID.

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There's still a backlog of

cases, but what they wanted to

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do was waive the 10 day rule.

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So if you're in custody and you are

charged with a felony and you are

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going through district court, okay.

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'cause you can get, you can be

charged with a felony in district

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court as an F case, or they can

skip that process and go on to just.

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Walk you into the grand jury

and indict you, that's a

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completely different protocol.

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10 day rule does not apply in circuit

court, but if you're arrested through

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district court, you have to have a

preliminary hearing within 10 days.

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And if that preliminary hearing

doesn't happen, they have

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to release you from custody.

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At that prelim is where they have

to establish probable cause that

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goes before the judge probable

cause that the felony occurred.

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Hey, , we're sending it

up to the grand jury.

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And they wanted to abandon the 10

day rule in order to, frankly, in my

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opinion, I think they wanted to have

week on, week off schedules allegedly.

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Hugh: Okay.

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How how does the 10 day rule, how

would that affect week on, week

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on off schedules for the judges?

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Christine: Well, if there's 16

judges at the time there were 17.

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So if you look at just, this is from

their website, what you can gather from,

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I think right now they'll have five,

courtrooms open in the morning, five

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courtrooms open in the afternoon, and then

you're gonna have juvenile court as well.

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And if there's a confidential,

so maybe six courtrooms, you

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got 12 courtrooms at each time.

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And the goal back in the day, I mean

back, or like just any competent person

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is gonna be like the judge that does

the arraignment is, should be the

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judge that does the prelim, right?

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That's how it's done in the counties.

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Unless it's like a rare circumstance

because of this 10 day time period.

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Hugh: And why would that be beneficial?

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Christine: The judge that's making

the decisions about the case should

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be the same judge throughout the case.

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I mean basic, basic.

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, And I don't think that's happening

right now in district court.

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Now.

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I'm not going on a regular basis to

see that, but I think what that allowed

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them to do, because if you had that week

downtime, you could never schedule your

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prelims within the 10 day time period.

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Hugh: I see.

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, Christine: So it's just

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Hugh: for a practical matter.

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, The 10 day time period was incompatible

with a week on, week off schedule.

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Christine: It was incompatible with them

being used to working the COVID schedule,

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which is in and of itself insane.

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I mean, you think back, there's so

many problems with Louisville that

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people, , that only practice in

Louisville think that they're so much

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more tech savvy and all that stuff.

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I mean, Louisville District Court is,

I remember the first time I went there

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and I practiced in eastern Kentucky.

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I never saw any level of like the jackets.

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You, you know what a jacket is?

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Yes.

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Hugh: Oh, yeah.

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Christine: But, that's

the stupidest thing.

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Like a jacket is a coat.

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, But in Louisville, their files are in

an envelope and they call it a jacket.

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And everything's done by

handwriting, not electronic.

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Now y'all, one thing that's crazy

is we were doing, arraignments

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video arraignments in 2010 in

Eastern Kentucky, 15 years ago.

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Mm-hmm.

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And our jail is attached

to the district court.

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Hugh: You mean here in Jefferson County?

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In

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Christine: Jefferson, yeah.

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And they couldn't get together to

figure out a system to do video

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arraignments during the Global Pandemic.

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They could go to the country club.

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Hugh: So for the viewers.

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Very important things happen at both the

arraignment and the preliminary hearing

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Christine: Prelim is

significantly more important.

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Well, I mean, you are always gonna

have the bond recommendations Yes.

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Whether you're going

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Hugh: to stay in custody or not.

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Christine: Yeah.

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And the judge should be reviewing that.

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They should be, you do an intake when

you get arrested and you get like a score

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that comes out should, which, you know,

should go into consideration by law, by

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statute, and enacted by the legislature

to determine what your bond should be.

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But really in Louisville I think that's

why they have their little name plates.

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Like they, you know how you can take

out your name plates in each division?

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Mm-hmm.

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'cause they're

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going to different courtrooms.

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Sure.

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So it's not like, like if you go

to division eight in, , family

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court, Brian Gate's courtroom

is Brian Gate's courtroom.

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Mm-hmm.

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You know, in district court, if we're

gonna have 16 judges that make $140,000

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a year, we need to have 16 courtrooms.

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Right.

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Hugh: I mean, you would think that it.

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If it was a full-time job, you would

need 16 courtrooms for 16 judges.

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What.

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What type of backlog is

there in district court?

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This is something that

I'm not familiar with,

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Christine: honestly.

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I don't know that I can even say

articulately in a way that we

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actually have access to that data.

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I mean, you have people

saying there's a backlog.

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You know, you've got, you've got our

county attorney here that publicly

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talks to the media that says Louisville

citizens won't have faith in the judges

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until they stop working part-time.

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And I'm paraphrasing, but this was

a quote in the courier and I think

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WDRB when all of this was going down.

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But I don't know if you went out in the

community, if anyone's gonna be like, oh

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yeah, I think they're doing a really good

job of resolving cases, trying cases.

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You know, I don't think

, that's the feel at all.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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, I did find that it was, , I think the

first criminal matters that I ever

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handled were here in Jefferson County.

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And so then when I went to other courts,

they were handled so differently.

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I.

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That it was a little bit of a, a shock.

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And, and the, the jackets, I

forgot all about the jackets.

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The jackets just have a timeline

of what's happened in the case.

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They start the handwriting, handwriting

at the top, the next appearance.

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They write down what happened,

and it just goes down in a line.

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And part of it is you don't know

who's gonna be the prosecutor who's

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sitting there in the conference room

to conference the case the next time

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you come back, especially if it's

something minor and they can look

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at the jacket and see what was done.

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Mm-hmm.

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You know, it might be

someone completely different.

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And that happens a lot in dependency,

neglect, and abuse cases too,

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where they might have a assistant

county attorney who is on the case.

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But any given day that you are there,

it may be someone completely different.

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They just have to read through

the file and sort of catch up.

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In order to negotiate

and conference the case.

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Christine: Yeah.

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And also our prosecutors here, , they're

not giving hardly any difference to

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make their own determinations, which

is another huge problem in Louisville.

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Like they'll have a hard stance policy.

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And really, in my opinion, , that's

touching on some ethical issues like

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attorneys have cases are nuanced.

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Do you know what I mean?

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. I'm trying to think of an example of one.

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When I was a public defender, I had a

young client that was poor that stole meds

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from Walmart and they had this policy that

was, if you, your first offense for theft

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by unlawful taking was 30 days served.

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10

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. The facts of that, when we got

into it, she was young and she had

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stole UTI medication 'cause she

had a UTI and couldn't afford it.

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And it was like 10 days in jail is not

the appropriate punishment for that.

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She was poor, she was in pain

and she had no record whatsoever.

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That's not something that

someone should go to jail for.

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When you're talking about somebody

too that's going in and, you know,

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pocketing back at that time, big

thing with like DVDs and selling

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'em to pawn shops and stuff like

that to use very different facts.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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But the same result because that's sort of

just, this is the standard deal we give.

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Christine: Yeah.

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Now my prosecutor out there he did, he had

a boss, but he did what he wanted to do.

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He did what he felt was right.

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And in Louisville, I think you'd have

to, , it would take two and a half,

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three years to adjudicate a case where

they were going to move off of whatever

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rule that Mike o Connell has given them.

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Like, I don't even know what the

current ones are at this point.

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Hugh: How often do they change?

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Do you know?

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, Christine: I think it just depends.

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, It's obviously they're political.

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And so it's gonna be, if they get

any sort of pushback, it's gonna be

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what the policy is from the public,

Michael Connell's a perfect example.

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He's very politically powerful.

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, And I don't know him personally.

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, I've seen some interactions, , in the way

that he's spoken to people, and that's

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not how I don't think it's appropriate.

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But his last election, he spent like

$330,000 for a job that makes like maybe,

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I don't even know, probably a buck 50.

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Hugh: To me.

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Weird.

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Very weird.

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Well, I mean, that's, most

politicians aren't paid a lot at

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their, you know, in their salaries.

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I mean, look at Washington, their

salaries are not super high, but they

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spend millions and millions of dollars.

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But that's crazy.

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Christine: Oh,

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Hugh: There's all the

power that comes with it.

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There's the power that ha, you know,

that comes with, uh, you know, , your

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next job after that position.

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, But that's, I mean, that's

part of our political process.

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I think it, because it exists,

it attracts people that are

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seeking that kind of power.

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And I don't think, and that's

not unique to any one person or

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state, local or federal government.

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I think that's how politics works.

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Not saying it should, right?

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But.

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Christine: I think I'm just still naive.

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I guess I always thought about that from

DC's perspective, but I didn't think

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about it as much locally because you

actually live here, so that's what Yep.

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Gets weird to me.

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But it seems like absolute power

corrupts absolutely, regardless

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of the scale that it's on.

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Hugh: Well, I mean, I've always

understood, you know, if you're, if

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you're sitting in Congress or even

state legislature and you, you have

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that position that doesn't pay much in

and of itself, but you're developing a

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network that you can use later for much

more lucrative jobs and lobbying and,

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pushing for legislation for specific

industries and things like that.

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I don't understand it as much at the

local government level, honestly.

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Where that, you know,

what that power gets you.

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It's, it's just not as direct to me.

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Christine: I mean, it's just the ability

to like micromanage a bunch of people.

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Maybe that's, that's the

power in and of itself.

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I don't know.

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Yeah.

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Hugh: I don't know.

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So who puts the pressure on for

changes of those set policies that

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the prosecutors have to adhere to?

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Christine: I guess it would

just depend on what the talking

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point of the day is, you know?

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'cause there was a time prior to

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advantageous to say anything negative

about LMPD at all, especially

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from a prosecutorial standpoint.

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And then all of a sudden it became

anything and everything that LMPD

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does wrong is leaked to the press.

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I mean, and the press wa

they were eating that up.

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I mean, sure.

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That's all they wanted to report

on was the misdeeds of LMPD.

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And I ain't saying there weren't

problems within LMPD at all.

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No doubt , but the same problems

that exist in that arena

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exist within the judiciary.

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Okay.

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Exist within any government entity like.

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Do you think there's any agency that a

hundred percent of the people are good?

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Hugh: No, but there's no, there's

no team, there's no organization,

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there's no, there's no family.

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There's no unit of people where

everybody's a hundred percent good.

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Christine: Right.

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I

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Hugh: don't think any one

person, you know, there aren't

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any people that are 100% good.

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Christine: Agree.

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So why is it so radical to say, Hey,

we need to look at the judiciary.

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Like, why is , there's such a visceral,

oh my gosh, how dare you say that?

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All these judges work hard.

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Hugh: Oh, yeah.

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No, I, I agree.

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, I think judges are unique to a certain

extent because of the law industry and

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the legal community being unique that

we are, we are really regulated in

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what we can say, what we can say to the

public, what information we can disclose.

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It wasn't long ago, in fact, toward

the beginning of my career not long

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before I started practicing here

in Louisville, you weren't allowed

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to advertise as an attorney at all.

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And if you did advertise it, , you

could post your name, address

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and phone number and that you

were a lawyer and nothing else.

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You still, , can't have trade names, you

have to just be the names of the attorney.

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, There's this whole assumption that the

legal industry is completely different.

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And number one, I find that it

insults the public's intelligence.

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Christine: Yeah, I

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Hugh: mean, it used to be

every advertisement had to say

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in big conspicuous language.

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This is an advertisement.

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No kidding.

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It's on a billboard.

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Yeah, it's on a TV commercial.

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Fortunately, that kind

of stuff has gone away.

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The fact that you had to have every blog

post or every change to your website

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pre-approved and pay for it, , by

the Bar Association, that has finally

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gone away just because, , the, the

pace of media , and things online.

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It just, it just wasn't practical.

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But so much of that still exists in,

in, in that it's, it's completely

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taboo to talk about anything

that's wrong within the industry.

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Mm-hmm.

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To talk about a judge, God forbid

you talk about a bar association.

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I mean, it's the kind of thing that

there are several rules that people

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would say, oh, you're getting kind

of close on this rule just by, by

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criticizing something and it's protected

attorneys for a very long time, which

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:

I tend to believe most of the rules.

367

:

Are protectionists of the industry.

368

:

Yep.

369

:

, The keeping people out, the gatekeeping

and gatekeeping in a way that does

370

:

not, and, and I'm referring to

bar associations, law schools not

371

:

referring to any metric that affects

someone's ability to practice law,

372

:

but just arbitrary gate gatekeeping

to keep a certain amount of attorneys.

373

:

And they've gotten it right and they've

gotten it wrong at various different

374

:

times, but I think there's just

something that we're taught from the very

375

:

beginning that you don't rock the boat.

376

:

Mm-hmm.

377

:

You don't speak out about anything.

378

:

Which is interesting because we do in

Kentucky have an ethical rule that if you

379

:

see something that an attorney does wrong,

you ha you are supposed to report it.

380

:

Christine: The rat rule.

381

:

Yeah.

382

:

Hugh: Yeah.

383

:

Which is very strange because most

other rules seem to be aimed at.

384

:

Maintaining the reputation of the bar of,

of attorneys in general, of the practice

385

:

of law, and especially the judges.

386

:

And then we have the rat rule, right?

387

:

And I'm guessing that, , most disciplinary

things are handled very privately

388

:

with attorneys, with the judges, so

that the public doesn't see what's

389

:

going on and what's been reported.

390

:

Christine: Yeah, I mean the Kentucky Bar

Association, , I tell people, and I have

391

:

said this publicly, I said it about a year

ago, , to new lawyers, I would want all

392

:

new lawyers to understand the Kentucky

Bar Association is not here to help you.

393

:

It should be treated as someone that now,

unless you have a whole lot of money and

394

:

your, your mommy and daddy were lawyers.

395

:

So I think you maybe had a

little bit more friendship there.

396

:

But you should understand

that the Bar Association's job

397

:

primarily, in my opinion, is to

protect the bar and its power.

398

:

Like just as a general status,

not the individual attorneys.

399

:

Yep.

400

:

You know, a lot of frustration you get

401

:

we had.

402

:

I wanna say maybe a decade

ago is when it started.

403

:

We had all mass suicides from

trial attorneys in Kentucky.

404

:

Like actually it made the New York Times

because we had such a high rate trial.

405

:

Attorneys were committing suicide but

the Bar Association enacted so many rules

406

:

about how we have to go to all these

mandatory CLEs about like, don't jump.

407

:

, Which aren't helpful at all I don't think.

408

:

For your mental health.

409

:

Do you think those are good CLEs?

410

:

Hugh: Well, I think, I don't think any

CLEI mean, there's a whole CLE industry.

411

:

You have to get your

hours in to get approved.

412

:

You have to basically be something

talking about something related

413

:

to laws or regulations or HR or

something, , abstractly, ethical.

414

:

And the Bar Association

says, yeah, this is fine.

415

:

And then you.

416

:

You have to, uh, nowadays, especially post

COVID, you just hit play , on a video.

417

:

I don't know that that's really

helping, making people better attorneys.

418

:

There are some very good ones.

419

:

There are, yeah, the law update

ones specifically where , you will

420

:

watch for a couple hours , and the

presenter will go through new changes

421

:

in, in your specific, in a specific

area of law that you practice in.

422

:

Those things are very helpful, but

I by and large don't think that

423

:

that requirement really furthers

424

:

Christine: well.

425

:

This is a most

426

:

Hugh: people's legal

knowledge and abilities.

427

:

Christine: Yeah, I just

do you get your hours?

428

:

We just had to do 'em.

429

:

Hugh: Oh yeah,

430

:

Christine: I got mine.

431

:

Yeah, of course.

432

:

Barely.

433

:

But, , I, this is a perfect example

of how the Kentucky Bar Association,

434

:

I don't think really cares about

the mental health of practitioners.

435

:

And I emailed them about this.

436

:

We got an email over Christmas break that

like, Hey, everyone have a great holiday.

437

:

But remember these expire on

December 31st at midnight.

438

:

And so I actually moved on December

31st this year, which was great

439

:

'cause of that ice storm, but I was

sitting at home with my moving, like,

440

:

shit, I got two more free hours.

441

:

I might as well get listening to it.

442

:

, In what world did it need to expire on

a holiday when we all should have been

443

:

spending time with friends and family.

444

:

And the bar association was like,

well, I'm sorry you feel that way, but

445

:

we have tons of other opportunities.

446

:

But that's just so arbitrary.

447

:

Hugh: Yeah.

448

:

I mean,

449

:

Christine: what was the point

of it expiring on December 31st?

450

:

Hugh: I can see the, I can see the

decisions being made, the group of

451

:

people around a conference table

talking about 20 different things.

452

:

And it was just, what do we wanna do?

453

:

We want these to expire after a

certain amount of time or at the end

454

:

of the calendar year or whatever.

455

:

And someone said, end of the

calendar year, all right.

456

:

And everyone said, yeah,

that's probably, that's fine.

457

:

And they said it and there probably

wasn't a lot more thought about it

458

:

Christine: but it's just contrary

to worrying about the lawyer's

459

:

mental, like members of the bar.

460

:

Yeah.

461

:

Hugh: I, I agree.

462

:

I agree.

463

:

Especially 'cause

464

:

Christine: we're on a fiscal year.

465

:

Ours are all due at June 30th.

466

:

Hugh: Yeah.

467

:

Christine: We're not on a

calendar year for requirements.

468

:

Nope.

469

:

But I digress.

470

:

But I mean, that, that's gonna

make the Bar Association mad.

471

:

And I think there's probably, I

think we do have some help if there's

472

:

substance abuse issues going on.

473

:

I do think Kela, well, you

know, I, I don't even wanna

474

:

go there today, to be honest.

475

:

Hugh: Alright.

476

:

, I've never had any issue I, I.

477

:

I took great issue with the

advertising rules back when you had

478

:

to get pre-approval for anything.

479

:

Yeah.

480

:

And the web was exploding and I was new

to town and was developing my business

481

:

through this new media of websites and,

and digital marketing and was hamstrung

482

:

and just couldn't figure out what

possible benefit there was to the public

483

:

of some of those rules where it just,

it just didn't make any sense that we

484

:

are so different than anyone else that

you know, the medical industry, someone

485

:

that, you know, you want to talk about

if someone misinterprets something on

486

:

a commercial for a medical product,

that it really is life and death.

487

:

Mm-hmm.

488

:

That.

489

:

We as attorneys need pre-approval

to say, Hey, I'm a family attorney.

490

:

This is what I do.

491

:

Come talk to me.

492

:

You know, that was, I just, I didn't

understand that except for , the only

493

:

thing, and I was told over and over

and over again, oh, it's to protect the

494

:

people that already have the business.

495

:

This is just protectionists.

496

:

It's always protectionists.

497

:

It's always gatekeeping.

498

:

Not actually protecting the public.

499

:

But that, that's my opinion,

my experience with it.

500

:

I complied.

501

:

And when I complied, I had always dealt

with very nice people and, you know, I

502

:

didn't feel like I was having to wait

for a very long time for anything.

503

:

Christine: I think it is a little

weird that now you're like, you

504

:

go from the rules 10, 15 years ago

where you have to, everything is so

505

:

micromanaged as far as advertising and

now we have advertisers that can be

506

:

like, fire your lawyer and hire us.

507

:

Like, I think that's borderline

crossing a line for lawyers to

508

:

talk about other lawyers like that.

509

:

Hugh: Why?

510

:

Christine: What do you mean?

511

:

Hugh: Why is that any different?

512

:

Or do you want a second opinion?

513

:

I mean, I've seen those

commercials You not happy with,

514

:

you know, what's been offered?

515

:

Get a second opinion.

516

:

Christine: Oh, I don't know.

517

:

I mean, I just think it's in general

saying something disparaging without,

518

:

Hugh: I don't think it's disparaging.

519

:

You're not talking about anybody specific.

520

:

I think when you see it, at least

from my opinion, when I see that in

521

:

the, I've really only seen it for,

522

:

I think bankruptcies and

523

:

Christine: pi,

524

:

Hugh: PI like so injury stuff.

525

:

Christine: Mm-hmm.

526

:

Hugh: I mean, we all know there are

factories that are doing the PI stuff.

527

:

They settle cases.

528

:

They, they don't necessarily get

top dollar, but they, they're

529

:

not going to go to court.

530

:

They handle it like a factory.

531

:

If you want a decent amount of money

for your injuries or whatever, and

532

:

you want it to be fast and you want it

to be handled very quickly with good

533

:

communication, those places are great.

534

:

Are there other attorneys who can get a

lot more money for that exact same case?

535

:

Absolutely.

536

:

Because they handle it differently.

537

:

Yeah.

538

:

They're not looking at

it as just another one.

539

:

So we're sort of going

through the pipeline.

540

:

And there's also a lot

of risk involved in that.

541

:

Like the, the insurance companies have

these built in costs that they know this

542

:

is about how it works with this, you

know, this law office that processes this.

543

:

Many of our cases, we know what

we can deal with with them.

544

:

But you get somebody else, you may,

you may, it may turn out worse,

545

:

but you, it could be a lot better.

546

:

I don't know that there's any.

547

:

Reason why people shouldn't

be able to advertise that?

548

:

I don't think it's disparaging.

549

:

I think it's the truth.

550

:

Christine: Oh, I don't know.

551

:

It makes me feel a certain kind of way,

but maybe that's my own indoctrination.

552

:

And I was thinking about

that last night a lot.

553

:

I had a person that was asking me

questions, you know, uh, I get a lot

554

:

of calls and a lot of dms and messages

from people that want help, and I'm,

555

:

I still tend to believe in the system.

556

:

But I do wonder if at some level

we've just been so indoctrinated.

557

:

And I guess what I mean is like

when I went into education very

558

:

briefly for six months, I was

immediately like, this is insane.

559

:

This is not effective.

560

:

This is nuts.

561

:

This is not helping children.

562

:

And then the goal isn't even helping

children, like, can y'all not see this?

563

:

And great teachers out there?

564

:

But I wonder if that's what people

think about when they come into the

565

:

legal profession because we're just like

indoctrinated and it's just systemic and

566

:

systematic, and this is how we do things.

567

:

Hugh: Well, I mean, you, you

talked about why it's not okay,

568

:

why people think it's not okay to

talk about judges or, and mm-hmm.

569

:

But you feel you had that.

570

:

Very reaction about attorneys

advertising that, Hey, your

571

:

attorney may not be that great.

572

:

Come see a second opinion, which

is just normal in any other,

573

:

yeah, in any other industry.

574

:

That is perfectly normal.

575

:

And frankly, you know, as well as I

do, there are good attorneys, there are

576

:

okay attorneys, there are bad attorneys.

577

:

Christine: 100.

578

:

Hugh: And it is just, I don't know if,

if, you know, the, we've been conditioned

579

:

to think that attorneys are just this

monolithic category of people and we're

580

:

all the same and we treated the same

and, and we we're not allowed to compete

581

:

the way that other people in private

practice or in private businesses are.

582

:

But we are businesses.

583

:

And I think, but I, but I think one

of the ways that that has really

584

:

done a disservice to attorneys

is small practice and solos.

585

:

Yeah.

586

:

That have been conditioned to think that.

587

:

They are their practice no

matter what, they cannot see

588

:

their company as a business.

589

:

Mm-hmm.

590

:

And ultimately what happens is

it also doesn't serve the public

591

:

because when you can't run a practice

like any other type of business,

592

:

you are involved in everything.

593

:

You have to continue to

be involved in everything.

594

:

There's not an exit strategy.

595

:

It's not something that can be sold

very easily because we have rules

596

:

against people from outside of the

legal industry having any ownership.

597

:

Christine: Mm-hmm.

598

:

And

599

:

Hugh: law firms.

600

:

And the end result is attorneys work

way past when they're actually able

601

:

to do a good job with their clients

because there's not an exit strategy

602

:

and just it's much more stressful.

603

:

People, people will continue to just

sort of hit a wall and that other small

604

:

businesses don't that would allow them

to grow and have, you know, innovate or

605

:

have delegate much better quality of life.

606

:

Mm-hmm.

607

:

Like, I think, I think ultimately

it results in poor quality services.

608

:

More, much more expensive services.

609

:

Because if attorneys could run businesses

like a business, they could innovate,

610

:

they could cut the cost down, which

would then trickle down somewhat.

611

:

I mean, it would be a higher margin, but

it could bring legal costs down because

612

:

that would be a great way to compete.

613

:

Wait, I can do this in half the

time with half the man hours.

614

:

Mm-hmm.

615

:

For half the price, I'm not going to

charge the same amount and do that.

616

:

I'm going to charge a lot

less than competitors.

617

:

'cause you're going to clean up.

618

:

Christine: Yeah.

619

:

Hugh: And, and I think that, I think it

would work out in the public's interest.

620

:

Uh, but, you know, for whatever reason,

uh, we wanna pretend that we're all

621

:

the same, they are all the same skill

level that we, there's something

622

:

special about a law business that makes

it incompatible with any, you know,

623

:

running it like a regular business.

624

:

Christine: Well, and that's why

I think AI is, I, I do not think

625

:

solo practitioners in large firms

understand how much AI is gonna change.

626

:

And I was a part of a firm very

briefly, and I saw, I'd say we've

627

:

got two to five years left before law

firms are predominantly run by ai.

628

:

Hugh: I if that, I think I came from,

I, I've worked within two very, very

629

:

specific industries, family law and, and

environmental, but mainly international

630

:

environmental, which is very, very

niche, you know, to get my head around

631

:

all the different areas of law that

would have to be replaced by something

632

:

I would have to think more about.

633

:

But I can definitely list just

pages of things that could be

634

:

better handled by someone running.

635

:

Artificial intelligence, you

know, not running by itself

636

:

because it just, no, no, no, no.

637

:

Smart people coupled with artificial

intelligence are orders of magnitude

638

:

more efficient, more thorough, and can be

far more professional than just a human.

639

:

And you know, I think even in five

years you're still not going to have

640

:

AI that just sort of runs itself.

641

:

It can run the processes, it can do

the background work it, it can do the

642

:

things that you instructed it to do.

643

:

But I mean, there, there's a huge role

for the attorneys in that process.

644

:

But so much of the legal industry,

so much of I mean from contract

645

:

review, document review, I, I've spent

time in DC on document review teams

646

:

where they were paying us to work.

647

:

90, a hundred, sometimes

105 hours per week.

648

:

And we're talking about hundreds

of attorneys at one firm.

649

:

Mm-hmm.

650

:

Just stuffed in the rooms, reviewing

documents that now could be done in

651

:

a matter of minutes, weeks of things

that we did at, and I forget what

652

:

they were charging the client hundreds

of dollars an hour per attorney.

653

:

I, I worked on the team teams as

large as like 150 attorneys that were

654

:

all in one large space sitting at,

at tables doing document review that

655

:

could be done in an hour or less.

656

:

Christine: Yeah.

657

:

Hugh: And we would be doing that for,

for weeks or months on a project.

658

:

And that stuff's going to change a lot of

the small mom and pop practices that, that

659

:

just draft wills for people that draft

deeds, that do real estate transactions.

660

:

Those should disappear.

661

:

Christine: Well, I mean,

662

:

Hugh: I mean, I'm not saying

the job should disappear.

663

:

Someone should be running it, but

if the attorney likes that area of

664

:

practice, then run it like a business.

665

:

Mm-hmm.

666

:

And let's pass those savings and the

efficiencies down to the clients.

667

:

The fact that we still have real

estate transactions, that this is

668

:

the biggest purchase that likely

anyone ever makes in their life.

669

:

And it's on a handwritten

thing that it's insane.

670

:

We, we fill out, that's like a, a

form and it takes like six people

671

:

sitting around a table to do it and

weeks to get everything lined up and

672

:

all of that stuff makes absolutely

no sense when, you know, even before

673

:

there were, and you know, artificial

intelligence could be used to do it.

674

:

I had helped develop software that could

do an entire divorce, fully customize

675

:

every single piece of it in about 1.7

676

:

seconds.

677

:

Christine: Oh my goodness.

678

:

Hugh: And but if you, if you did it

the traditional way where we had to

679

:

go through it, it would be months.

680

:

And just the processes.

681

:

There are better ways

to approach them there.

682

:

There are much better ways to

approach them, and I don't think

683

:

it should ever replace people.

684

:

I'm not advocating for that.

685

:

I just think there are certain parts

of our industry that are long overdue

686

:

for innovation and change, and it's

gonna disrupt and hurt a lot of people.

687

:

Christine: But I think we've also

like cut our nose off to spite our

688

:

face being like, it will never happen

to us, or we are elite as lawyers,

689

:

therefore we don't have to lean in.

690

:

And like you said, you know,

make best case scenarios.

691

:

But I think, uh, family court judges in

particular, like AI as far as analyzing

692

:

their decisions, just to see the

discrepancies would be a game changer.

693

:

It would truly be a game changer

because I think a, I could look at the

694

:

facts of the case, what was alleged,

well, and see the parental alienation

695

:

patterns, the silver bullet pattern.

696

:

I could and

697

:

Hugh: we're at the point

where we could do that.

698

:

I could I can think of.

699

:

If you gave me a whiteboard probably

from the ceiling to the floor, I

700

:

could sketch out exactly what we

would need to put that together.

701

:

The tools are there now to do it,

which would be really cool and maybe

702

:

something that we should do it,

given the time we could dive into.

703

:

But I mean, I, I think of it this way.

704

:

Robots are not running hospitals, but

doctors are supervising and controlling

705

:

robots for very complex surgeries now.

706

:

Mm-hmm.

707

:

To much better results than a, you know,

you can't just turn a robot loose to

708

:

cut someone open and do the surgery.

709

:

They're guided by someone who is really

skilled, but there are things that

710

:

are just technically better about the

machinery and the computational power

711

:

that helps them get outcomes that we

could never have thought of before.

712

:

Yeah.

713

:

That existed.

714

:

It would be the same thing with ai.

715

:

It's just, it's, it's coming and

the courts and the bar association

716

:

and attorneys can try to.

717

:

Regulate it out or educate people

about the dangers of it all they

718

:

want, but it's time to innovate.

719

:

Yep.

720

:

And the ultimate, the ultimate benefit

is going to be, to be to the public

721

:

because it will bring costs down.

722

:

It will make things

happen much, much faster.

723

:

It could reduce so much backlog

through the court systems.

724

:

There are systems that could be put

in place that would work better than

725

:

people do, but there's, you know,

there are, there's fallout to that

726

:

and it's not particularly popular

to do that, but you harness a good

727

:

attorney and a good legal mind with the

technology could just scale up every

728

:

single thing that a practice could do.

729

:

Christine: Well, if you had, uh,

39 AI judges, how many AI judges

730

:

would be working right now?

731

:

Hugh: Now 24 hours a day?

732

:

Yep.

733

:

That I would never, oh my Lord, that,

that would be an absolute nightmare.

734

:

Well, now what I could see would be.

735

:

A tool to analyze the facts or to go

through if they had a tool that would help

736

:

them go through the stack of bank records.

737

:

So, you know, some cases that I have

and I know that it's, it's ridiculous

738

:

to expect even a judge who's working

overtime all the time to go through

739

:

and I try a case and I come in and the

other side is alleging something's wrong

740

:

with, you know, how someone is spending

business money on personal things.

741

:

In order to disprove that allegation,

I have to bring in stacks and I

742

:

mean sometimes boxes of documents.

743

:

No court in the world is going to

or should give me time to go through

744

:

page by page, all of those, I mean

just, you're not going to get that

745

:

time in a divorce or in family court.

746

:

And I don't expect that anyone

has the time to have gone

747

:

through those things, but.

748

:

As a practitioner, that is

the way to prove my case.

749

:

That is absolutely, and the,

the, the true black and white

750

:

answer to the question mm-hmm.

751

:

Is in there.

752

:

And yeah, we can do some demonstratives,

we can go through things like that.

753

:

What's demonstrative?

754

:

Oh, where you, uh, the best way to

think of it's like a, a summary or, or

755

:

a graphical representation of something,

something that summarizes or demonstrates

756

:

in a, in, in some summary, fashion.

757

:

A, a data set.

758

:

It's like cohesive.

759

:

Yeah.

760

:

So I mean, the, the way that I

would use it mostly would be charts.

761

:

Yeah.

762

:

Yeah.

763

:

I would use charts or I would use, I.

764

:

Summaries of bank statements.

765

:

So instead of here, we need you to

look through, you know, six pages

766

:

of every single bank statement.

767

:

Here is a demonstrative that has

the date of the bank statement.

768

:

It says what page it is in the stack.

769

:

If you wanna go double check my work.

770

:

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

771

:

But it

772

:

Hugh: also says, here's the

amount in, here's the amount

773

:

out, here's the final balance.

774

:

And then I can put that together and

show a pattern easier than someone

775

:

having to make their own notes

and go through thousands of pages.

776

:

Christine: And so you're saying AI would

help with that analysis, and I agree a

777

:

Hugh: AI could come through and,

and find those patterns and change,

778

:

change, all of those things.

779

:

But imagine if you could write a

evidentiary bot that you could give

780

:

to, that you could use in court

to make the demonstrative and.

781

:

Answer questions and walk through a

process in front of a judge that I

782

:

Christine: think we'll have that soon.

783

:

But imagine,

784

:

Hugh: I don't know that they're,

they're gonna allow that anytime soon.

785

:

Christine: Well I think in

Louisville we need to have, court

786

:

should be open 24 hours a day.

787

:

I mean, if we have 30, and I'm

not saying full time obviously,

788

:

like, but I don't understand how we

have a million people, people here

789

:

and we don't have a night court.

790

:

Isn't that weird?

791

:

Like, that's another thing.

792

:

Our profession, you have night court.

793

:

I know our profession's done a really

shitty job of like leaning into the times,

794

:

like, your hospital's open 24 hours a day.

795

:

But I do think, and I think it would

be a, I'd love to be a night court

796

:

judge or something like that and

just handle all of the arraignments.

797

:

It would really keep the system.

798

:

Going.

799

:

But I definitely think utilizing AI

to just get rid of this backlog and

800

:

to at least just get data to analyze.

801

:

'cause like I said a hundred times, if

these judges are working 40, 50 hours

802

:

a week and they are doing the best

that they can and they are on top of

803

:

it, just show me you're doing that.

804

:

You know what I mean?

805

:

Yeah.

806

:

Like why is that such

difficult information to get?

807

:

Hugh: Yeah, I mean, I just keep going

back to if it's gonna take me between

808

:

three and six months to get a hearing

date on something that is rather urgent

809

:

in a family law case, why is it that

no one is sitting in the courtroom?

810

:

Two of 10 family court

judges yesterday, regularly?

811

:

When that time could,

could be open for hearings.

812

:

There's no reason why that court

couldn't be processing things through

813

:

and not making people wait six months.

814

:

Christine: Well, and especially because,

you know, and this is super, super,

815

:

super controversial and this is something

that in, in as far as the general public

816

:

goes, but this is common sense to us.

817

:

Like, and not common sense,

maybe condescending, but this

818

:

is common knowledge I guess.

819

:

But judges aren't

writing their own orders.

820

:

No.

821

:

Judges don't write their own orders.

822

:

Like judges do not write their own orders.

823

:

They have staff that write their orders.

824

:

Sure.

825

:

And it's so normal to us that

it doesn't feel wrong to me.

826

:

But then when I start to think

about it, you know, I can see

827

:

where the general public's, like

we didn't elect a staff attorney.

828

:

We didn't elect, you know,

somebody that gets paid.

829

:

God, I don't even know what

they make, like 40 k maybe.

830

:

Hugh: Well, they also didn't elect,

I think it's more than that now.

831

:

It went up.

832

:

There was a big push.

833

:

Well, thank God throughout.

834

:

Yeah, I mean there was, there was a

big push from, from all sides, and

835

:

especially from the judges to increase

the salary, but there were freezes on

836

:

salaries through the a OC for so long.

837

:

You know, people didn't

elect AI either, though.

838

:

I mean, so you have to look at how

much is this somebody's else's judgment

839

:

versus this person a tool that's

articulating the judge's judgment.

840

:

If the judge is the one that sits and sees

the case and takes the notes and knows

841

:

what factual findings he or she wants to

make, knows the legal conclusions they

842

:

wanna make, and then communicates that

to the staff attorney to draft that and

843

:

make it into something, I think that's

what people would expect would work.

844

:

Christine: I think if that's happening,

I think sometimes they're delegating to

845

:

their staff attorney to make the decision.

846

:

Hugh: Oh, I know.

847

:

I've been told, I've, I've hired

and spoken with and interviewed

848

:

a lot of staff attorneys in my

day and know that that happens.

849

:

I know that.

850

:

Um, which is

851

:

Christine: insane.

852

:

That's wrong.

853

:

Yeah.

854

:

Hugh: I've heard about judges who.

855

:

The staff attorney would have to change

the judge's opinion and fight with them

856

:

about it because it might be racially

motivated or it might be, you know,

857

:

mo motivated by some cultural bias

that the staff attorney did not agree

858

:

with and felt that couldn't rule like

that and would, would have to fight

859

:

over those decisions and oh my God.

860

:

Sometimes would win.

861

:

Sometimes they won't.

862

:

Yeah.

863

:

Christine: Oh, that's so too much.

864

:

All right.

865

:

Let's talk about quickly stamp signatures.

866

:

How do you feel about that?

867

:

I know that something like on the

face, the first time I talked to

868

:

somebody about that, I was like,

duh, obviously they do that.

869

:

They do that, they do that.

870

:

And then I really started thinking about

it and started thinking about like some

871

:

of the problems in particular I saw

out in eastern Kentucky with one person

872

:

that had access to the judge's stamp.

873

:

And so, I don't know.

874

:

I am really torn about the fact that

someone else has the authority to

875

:

do the judge's signature, because I

do think that creates an avenue for

876

:

laziness that wouldn't exist otherwise.

877

:

Like if they had to sign their

name, hopefully they read it.

878

:

Yeah.

879

:

But I think,

880

:

Hugh: yeah, I, I agree.

881

:

But I mean, you just have

to have controls in place.

882

:

You have doctors are signing off

on charts or reviewing x-rays

883

:

and stuff from their house.

884

:

It doesn't mean they're

doing any worse of a job.

885

:

There's like electronic

signatures from attorneys.

886

:

I, I mean, there was a whole

category of things that I.

887

:

Sort of pre-approve my signature to be on.

888

:

If it was a motion to withdraw, if

it was a simple entry of appearance,

889

:

well, we're not, or things like that.

890

:

We're not,

891

:

Christine: and electronic signatures

are different than the stamp.

892

:

Hugh: No, I agree.

893

:

But I, we, we had a lot of decisions

about this or discussions about

894

:

this at, at my former job, we had

a lot of uncontested divorces.

895

:

The attorney review process was, I mean,

the attorneys went through and approved

896

:

of things, but then there was a second

round where it just hit our boxes and

897

:

we would just go blindly and lift up

the sign here things and we would sign.

898

:

It wasn't at another stage of review.

899

:

You've already reviewed it.

900

:

There's, you know, now there's

not, but the judges don't

901

:

Christine: have that.

902

:

Hugh: No, I, I agree.

903

:

But we decided that, we still decided

against it just because of the possibility

904

:

of errors and things like that.

905

:

I don't think I fell on

the side of not doing it.

906

:

I think I argued that we should allow

our electronic signatures to be placed

907

:

on things that we've already reviewed.

908

:

It's just you gotta have something

in place, or people are checking off.

909

:

This has been reviewed,

this has been approved.

910

:

I mean the,

911

:

Christine: it's, it's hard though too,

because judges like, they have so much

912

:

lawyers, we have so much power over

people's lives, but judges have, yeah.

913

:

But so much power.

914

:

How, how

915

:

Hugh: does it change if a judge says,

okay, this is what I wanna rule on, on

916

:

this case, gives it to a staff member,

they draft the order, then they just place

917

:

it on the judge's desk for signature.

918

:

I don't, I mean,

919

:

Christine: well, that would, so

920

:

Hugh: you're having to rely on the

judge who actually have read it first.

921

:

And I would expect that they would

before they'd sign off on anything.

922

:

Oh, I don't

923

:

Christine: think they are.

924

:

I mean, I don't even think the

legislature with separation of powers

925

:

would have the authority to require

judges to read orders they signed.

926

:

But I think our, their judicial

ethics would require them to

927

:

read orders that they signed.

928

:

I

929

:

Hugh: agree.

930

:

And that's what I'm saying.

931

:

I mean, there's, there's rules.

932

:

And if you're not, but you think they're

933

:

Christine: following 'em.

934

:

Hugh: I'm not saying, I'm thinking

they're following all the rules.

935

:

What I'm saying is that stamping a

signature versus signing a signature.

936

:

If a judge doesn't wanna read the order

before it's signed, does it really

937

:

matter who's putting the signature on it?

938

:

No.

939

:

Whether it hits the judge's desk and

here's a stack of things, judge, you've

940

:

already approved of these things.

941

:

Signed them.

942

:

And, and from a practical matter, I

mean, I don't, you know, I don't know

943

:

that I would go through and read them

all if, if I had already approved

944

:

what was there, and I would just

go through and blatantly sign them.

945

:

If I gave permission, just

stamp my signature on it.

946

:

Now, does that create the ability

of a staff member who isn't

947

:

regulated the same way to then do

things with the judge's signature?

948

:

That's a whole that's just a,

that's a totally different thing.

949

:

But then.

950

:

As we sit here, nothing is stopping them

from forging a judge's signature either.

951

:

Right?

952

:

So I, I think this is one of, if someone's

gonna break the rules of the law,

953

:

Christine: they're gonna break the rules.

954

:

Yeah.

955

:

I think that's one of the things too

though, that like being in this world

956

:

for, you know, a year and listening to

people that aren't lawyers, it's caused

957

:

people to lose faith in the system.

958

:

And I think even as lawyers like.

959

:

One thing I'll say that lawyers talk

a lot of shit about is Supreme Court.

960

:

They got no problems tweeting about

Supreme Court decisions and what a

961

:

mess they are or how amazing they are.

962

:

They do that until the end of

time, but they don't really do it

963

:

when it comes to the local level.

964

:

And I do think that that's another

weird thing to analyze as far as why

965

:

do they feel so comfortable talking

negatively about something that

966

:

doesn't directly impact their clients.

967

:

But yet they're fearful to say anything

negative about somebody that has direct

968

:

Hugh: Well, think of how many cases,

I mean how many cases did you have

969

:

in front of the Supreme Court or the

Court of Appeals versus how many cases

970

:

you had in front of the regular Yeah.

971

:

Family court bar.

972

:

Christine: Well, I mean, I know why

they do it, it's because they're

973

:

scared of being retaliated against.

974

:

Sure.

975

:

But I think that in and

of itself is the problem.

976

:

Well,

977

:

Hugh: I agree, but that's exactly right.

978

:

Mm-hmm.

979

:

I mean, if you are the attorney

that's sitting out there, you know,

980

:

talking about judges and then saying

that and, and a client has a case

981

:

in front of that judge, you're

gonna lose the faith of your client.

982

:

Christine: Yeah.

983

:

Hugh: Are you

984

:

Christine: ready to get the hate?

985

:

Are you ready to get on socials and start

getting the hate comments like I get.

986

:

Hugh: Oh, I, yeah, I, I don't know.

987

:

I, I wanna say yes, I'm ready, but I,

when it starts happening really badly,

988

:

then maybe I reconsider, I mean, not

reconsider doing it, but reconsider

989

:

how ready I actually was for it.

990

:

But, no,

991

:

Christine: it's so bizarre.

992

:

We need to read some of

the comments on here.

993

:

And I will tell you, like you and

I have had private conversations

994

:

about how the last two, three weeks,

like just the notion of some of the

995

:

things that has been said about,

like's been said about me publicly,

996

:

by some people in the judicial arena.

997

:

It's just super bizarre to have

it happen in real time and see

998

:

that we're striking such a nerve.

999

:

Do you know what I mean?

:

00:44:53,265 --> 00:44:57,085

Hugh: Yeah, no, that's been shocking

to me that, um, the reaction and

:

00:44:57,085 --> 00:44:59,995

the reaction of course hasn't been

to actually be there on the bench.

:

00:45:00,325 --> 00:45:03,385

It's been to block accounts,

so we can't see things.

:

00:45:03,415 --> 00:45:03,505

Yeah.

:

00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:03,680

Yeah.

:

00:45:03,745 --> 00:45:08,735

Or, you know, some, somehow

the audio vis video service I.

:

00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:11,960

Slows down to a crawl.

:

00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:12,020

Yeah.

:

00:45:12,050 --> 00:45:14,480

To, we're getting copies

of things so we can watch.

:

00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:18,010

You know, and I, I don't know, I,

I, I'm less willing to just sort

:

00:45:18,010 --> 00:45:19,660

of speculate on why those things.

:

00:45:19,665 --> 00:45:24,850

I, I, I, I'm more comfortable raising

the questions, but I'm super comfortable

:

00:45:24,850 --> 00:45:26,440

speaking out on things that I can see.

:

00:45:26,445 --> 00:45:26,595

Christine: Mm-hmm.

:

00:45:26,895 --> 00:45:32,110

Hugh: And the great thing about

court in Kentucky is it is recorded.

:

00:45:33,190 --> 00:45:36,670

The public can see it unless it's a,

you know, confidential case, which

:

00:45:36,670 --> 00:45:40,720

we're not gonna be showing confidential

things that we're not allowed access to.

:

00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:45,430

But the things that I talk about that

are happening are right there in video.

:

00:45:45,700 --> 00:45:45,790

Right.

:

00:45:45,790 --> 00:45:51,040

You know, if you want to hate on me

for, for basically narrating something

:

00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:52,510

that you could go watch yourself.

:

00:45:53,290 --> 00:45:53,500

Yeah.

:

00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:54,250

Bring it on.

:

00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:54,370

Right.

:

00:45:54,370 --> 00:45:58,240

But I, I, you know, and if I'm factually

incorrect about something, I'll

:

00:45:58,240 --> 00:46:00,550

absolutely own it and, and correct it.

:

00:46:00,550 --> 00:46:04,650

But the things that, have brought me

into this position to want to talk

:

00:46:04,650 --> 00:46:08,400

about it, or the things I've actually

seen, the things that I have probably

:

00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:12,920

hundreds of hours or at least hundreds

of hours of video of, because when I

:

00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:15,200

practiced, I kept video of my cases.

:

00:46:15,215 --> 00:46:15,835

See, I didn't do that.

:

00:46:15,835 --> 00:46:17,240

We needed it for appeal.

:

00:46:17,240 --> 00:46:17,450

I

:

00:46:17,450 --> 00:46:17,660

Christine: didn't

:

00:46:17,660 --> 00:46:17,990

Hugh: do that.

:

00:46:17,990 --> 00:46:23,660

I was so used to, you know, you

come out of the case, you know, your

:

00:46:23,660 --> 00:46:25,340

evidence backwards and forwards.

:

00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,070

I would keep all of my

hearing binders in order.

:

00:46:28,070 --> 00:46:31,940

I would have all of my stuff labeled

because it would be months and months

:

00:46:31,940 --> 00:46:33,920

and months before you get a, an order.

:

00:46:33,950 --> 00:46:34,040

Mm-hmm.

:

00:46:34,340 --> 00:46:36,650

And once you're reading that

order, you might have had

:

00:46:36,860 --> 00:46:38,630

50 different court hearings.

:

00:46:38,690 --> 00:46:38,960

Yeah.

:

00:46:39,020 --> 00:46:41,450

And you, you're not going to

remember, oh, did we present that

:

00:46:41,450 --> 00:46:42,590

evidence or who presented that?

:

00:46:42,950 --> 00:46:45,800

And I wanted to have it,

but also I wanted the video.

:

00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:50,330

And in certain cases where, um, we had a

client of means that would, would allow

:

00:46:50,330 --> 00:46:54,920

us to, to, uh, take these measures, we

would have the, the hearing transcribed.

:

00:46:55,385 --> 00:46:57,335

And it would name the speakers and

you see what the judge said and

:

00:46:57,335 --> 00:47:00,095

you'd see when evidence went in

and it would, we would have our

:

00:47:00,095 --> 00:47:01,655

exhibits there with the transcript.

:

00:47:01,655 --> 00:47:04,295

So when the order came out,

I could look through and say,

:

00:47:04,295 --> 00:47:05,405

well that's absolutely wrong.

:

00:47:05,405 --> 00:47:06,455

That's absolutely wrong.

:

00:47:06,455 --> 00:47:07,595

Nobody presented that.

:

00:47:07,595 --> 00:47:08,645

That's not even the wrong name.

:

00:47:08,705 --> 00:47:10,295

That's not even the

right name of the person.

:

00:47:10,295 --> 00:47:12,005

That's not an address

that these parties own.

:

00:47:12,215 --> 00:47:16,655

I could look through and just find

sort of the silliness there or you

:

00:47:16,655 --> 00:47:20,735

know, find the things where, you know,

it would completely misquote someone.

:

00:47:20,735 --> 00:47:21,935

Well, so-and-so said this.

:

00:47:21,935 --> 00:47:24,560

I'm like, actually no, it was the other

side's mother that said, you know, really?

:

00:47:24,605 --> 00:47:27,215

And I could go through and look

at that and I could attack it.

:

00:47:27,215 --> 00:47:27,395

And

:

00:47:27,605 --> 00:47:29,645

Christine: I get a lot of

complaints that that's happening.

:

00:47:29,705 --> 00:47:30,995

Like a lot that's happening.

:

00:47:30,995 --> 00:47:33,935

I've never seen it like, well, I have

seen it in two of the cases that have

:

00:47:33,935 --> 00:47:36,305

been sent to me, but that is crazy.

:

00:47:36,305 --> 00:47:37,775

So you saw that during your practice?

:

00:47:38,435 --> 00:47:39,155

Hugh: All the time.

:

00:47:39,245 --> 00:47:39,515

Christine: Oh my goodness.

:

00:47:39,635 --> 00:47:40,655

But so one of the

:

00:47:40,655 --> 00:47:42,695

Hugh: things that made the most,

the biggest impression of me that

:

00:47:42,695 --> 00:47:45,035

differentiated one court from

another was how they handled it

:

00:47:45,035 --> 00:47:46,115

when you pointed those things out.

:

00:47:46,115 --> 00:47:46,235

Truth.

:

00:47:46,565 --> 00:47:51,125

So the ones that, you know, I would file

something and I would ask for a correction

:

00:47:51,125 --> 00:47:54,455

59, depending on the type of order it was.

:

00:47:54,455 --> 00:47:58,375

If it was a final order, we, the

lawyers have a remedy that within

:

00:47:58,375 --> 00:48:02,485

10 days you can file a motion to

correct errors of fact or law.

:

00:48:03,535 --> 00:48:07,555

And I would point out just incorrect

factual findings and I would point

:

00:48:07,555 --> 00:48:11,395

exactly to the exhibit and where it

was on the record, which you can't

:

00:48:11,395 --> 00:48:14,275

do in 10 days if you don't have that

transcription or anything like that.

:

00:48:14,275 --> 00:48:15,235

And that was wonderful.

:

00:48:15,835 --> 00:48:20,275

Generally it's, uh, for whatever reason,

very much looked down upon filing

:

00:48:20,275 --> 00:48:22,795

59 oh fives or motions to correct.

:

00:48:22,795 --> 00:48:24,985

And earlier in my career, if

you did it, people would just.

:

00:48:25,495 --> 00:48:28,195

Were blown away that you would

file a motion to correct a judge.

:

00:48:28,195 --> 00:48:33,175

Now, the 10 day rule made it almost

impossible to file a really good one.

:

00:48:33,175 --> 00:48:33,235

Yeah.

:

00:48:33,415 --> 00:48:35,575

'cause you couldn't have

gotten a transcript or anything

:

00:48:35,575 --> 00:48:37,075

back, back 20 years ago.

:

00:48:37,375 --> 00:48:42,235

But I would file it and some judges

would look and say, yeah, I really

:

00:48:42,235 --> 00:48:43,645

need to get the orders out faster.

:

00:48:43,645 --> 00:48:44,665

I, I misremember that.

:

00:48:44,665 --> 00:48:46,585

I'll go back and look at the tape

and I'll make that correction

:

00:48:46,675 --> 00:48:49,585

and then just no ego behind it.

:

00:48:49,585 --> 00:48:52,315

And they would go and then they

would make corrections and.

:

00:48:53,260 --> 00:48:56,110

Oftentimes it would change a

finding in the case mm-hmm.

:

00:48:56,350 --> 00:48:59,980

And change some sort of an outcome

if there was a calculation error.

:

00:48:59,980 --> 00:49:03,940

That's some of the craziest things that

I was seeing in the last couple years

:

00:49:03,940 --> 00:49:06,970

were just horrible calculation errors or,

:

00:49:07,030 --> 00:49:10,420

Christine: oh, a judge not understanding

gross income versus net income.

:

00:49:10,720 --> 00:49:12,190

I, that's like next level.

:

00:49:12,190 --> 00:49:12,280

Oh yeah.

:

00:49:12,340 --> 00:49:12,880

I think that's,

:

00:49:13,510 --> 00:49:16,750

Hugh: that's been around for the whole 20

years I was practicing, but that's insane.

:

00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:20,850

Or, not calculating some, the ordering

someone to pay maintenance, but then

:

00:49:20,850 --> 00:49:23,400

calculating child support and not

including the maintenance income

:

00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:24,720

in the child support calculation.

:

00:49:25,305 --> 00:49:28,560

I mean, I saw that in, in the last

month of my practice and it's just,

:

00:49:28,770 --> 00:49:34,050

you're talking about just 1 0 1, but

that was on a temporary order that you

:

00:49:34,050 --> 00:49:39,060

can't do a 59 0 5 for, so, you know,

it's, it's, it's much harder to Correct.

:

00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:43,560

But there were some judges

that you would, so I had one,

:

00:49:45,900 --> 00:49:50,280

the petitioner in the case

who was not my client.

:

00:49:51,750 --> 00:49:55,560

Had kept one of the cars, it was in

my client, the respondent's name.

:

00:49:55,950 --> 00:49:58,650

She was driving it across

to Indiana over and over and

:

00:49:58,650 --> 00:50:00,570

over, amassing a ton of tolls.

:

00:50:00,780 --> 00:50:02,880

She was getting parking tickets

and all these things, and they

:

00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:05,730

were just showing up at my guy's

door and he was having to pay them.

:

00:50:06,150 --> 00:50:07,440

She wasn't paying the insurance.

:

00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:12,000

And this was a divorce that for,

because of the court processes,

:

00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:16,560

because of the, what the parties owed

owned, and some of the claims in the

:

00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:17,880

case was taking a very long time.

:

00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:21,000

So this was, this was just

becoming a big financial burden.

:

00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:26,010

So I filed a motion that, you know, either

let my client keep the car that's in

:

00:50:26,010 --> 00:50:31,500

his name and switch, or just make the,

the petitioner pay for the bills that

:

00:50:31,500 --> 00:50:33,060

she's running up while driving this car.

:

00:50:33,065 --> 00:50:33,265

Yeah,

:

00:50:33,265 --> 00:50:33,425

Christine: yeah,

:

00:50:33,780 --> 00:50:33,840

Hugh: yeah.

:

00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:36,150

And so the judge said, okay,

yeah, that makes sense.

:

00:50:36,780 --> 00:50:41,490

Issues an order that says the respondent

has to pay for all of the things

:

00:50:41,490 --> 00:50:42,870

that are incurred from this car.

:

00:50:43,110 --> 00:50:44,610

Now it's the petitioner was driving it.

:

00:50:44,940 --> 00:50:46,560

It was clearly like.

:

00:50:47,100 --> 00:50:48,420

At the motion hour, it was clear.

:

00:50:48,420 --> 00:50:50,040

The judge said, okay,

that actually makes sense.

:

00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:51,720

If you're gonna drive the tolls,

you're gonna pay the toll.

:

00:50:51,720 --> 00:50:51,780

Yeah.

:

00:50:52,110 --> 00:50:55,290

In his order, the judge

swapped the parties.

:

00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:59,640

So I filed a motion saying, would

you please correct this and swap it?

:

00:50:59,700 --> 00:51:02,880

Opposing counsel and I had even

talked, you know, saying, oh yeah,

:

00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:04,230

it's clearly just swapped the parties.

:

00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:05,130

Oh no.

:

00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:08,670

Judge was mad that I filed a motion

pointing out an error and not

:

00:51:08,670 --> 00:51:13,450

only didn't change it, he doubled

down and made, uh, my client do

:

00:51:13,450 --> 00:51:15,610

more than in the original order.

:

00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:16,630

Christine: Can I guess the judge?

:

00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:17,920

Hugh: Sure.

:

00:51:18,100 --> 00:51:18,250

Christine: Gatewood.

:

00:51:18,250 --> 00:51:18,310

Yeah,

:

00:51:19,570 --> 00:51:21,310

Hugh: that would probably be accurate.

:

00:51:22,810 --> 00:51:24,490

Christine: My goodness, there's

only one judge on the bench.

:

00:51:24,490 --> 00:51:26,740

Well, there's only two male

judges, but there's only one male

:

00:51:26,740 --> 00:51:27,850

judge that would double down.

:

00:51:28,630 --> 00:51:31,180

Hugh: Yeah, and it was just like

you swapped the parties, but you

:

00:51:31,180 --> 00:51:34,540

were angry at me at motion hour

and then decided to stick it to me

:

00:51:34,540 --> 00:51:36,160

and really stuck it to my client.

:

00:51:36,415 --> 00:51:39,715

And of course that's always

a fun conversation to have.

:

00:51:39,715 --> 00:51:42,445

Oh, when you tell your client,

the judge clearly mixed this

:

00:51:42,445 --> 00:51:43,825

up, I'll get it corrected.

:

00:51:43,825 --> 00:51:44,545

Not a big deal.

:

00:51:44,545 --> 00:51:45,775

There's a process for this.

:

00:51:45,925 --> 00:51:48,565

Judges can always correct their orders

within a certain amount of time.

:

00:51:48,565 --> 00:51:50,695

This is just so straightforward.

:

00:51:50,700 --> 00:51:51,175

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

:

00:51:51,175 --> 00:51:54,775

And then by me bringing that

motion, uh, or, you know, I, you

:

00:51:54,775 --> 00:51:56,125

know, I'm, I'm not the judge.

:

00:51:56,125 --> 00:52:02,215

I don't know what, what made him angry,

but saying that this is not correct.

:

00:52:02,215 --> 00:52:05,755

And then he just getting an

order that was much worse.

:

00:52:05,845 --> 00:52:10,075

And then bringing up the fact that

you can't, you've, you've not,

:

00:52:10,075 --> 00:52:11,695

you've not corrected something.

:

00:52:11,845 --> 00:52:11,995

Yeah.

:

00:52:11,995 --> 00:52:13,615

You've completely changed this order.

:

00:52:13,615 --> 00:52:16,195

You've added some other things

in it now, which you can't do.

:

00:52:16,405 --> 00:52:17,846

Then it just kept getting worse, spiral.

:

00:52:17,851 --> 00:52:20,395

And finally the client just sort of

was like, leave it alone, because

:

00:52:20,395 --> 00:52:21,835

he's just making it worse for me.

:

00:52:22,105 --> 00:52:22,315

Well, and

:

00:52:22,315 --> 00:52:25,765

Christine: then the other thing too with

that is like the notion of now you've

:

00:52:25,765 --> 00:52:29,075

made this judge mad who is known for.

:

00:52:29,900 --> 00:52:31,220

Being easily provoked.

:

00:52:31,220 --> 00:52:35,240

I mean, I don't think that's controversial

to say, but now you have an the other side

:

00:52:35,240 --> 00:52:38,780

that's winning on something they didn't

win on before and shouldn't have won on.

:

00:52:38,780 --> 00:52:41,540

And their attorney was like, oh yeah,

obviously this is gonna get corrected,

:

00:52:41,750 --> 00:52:44,600

but now that other party's not gonna wanna

settle 'cause they're like, we're gonna

:

00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:45,920

win everything in front of the judge.

:

00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:46,385

Hugh: That's exactly right.

:

00:52:46,385 --> 00:52:46,625

Yeah.

:

00:52:46,625 --> 00:52:46,745

Yeah.

:

00:52:46,745 --> 00:52:48,530

And that's exactly what happens.

:

00:52:48,530 --> 00:52:51,410

And I've had attorneys say, you

know, well, my client was willing

:

00:52:51,410 --> 00:52:54,560

to settle until the judge ruled on

this, and now she thinks she has, or

:

00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:57,200

he thinks he has a much better Yep.

:

00:52:57,290 --> 00:52:59,060

Uh, chance at these other claims.

:

00:52:59,090 --> 00:52:59,510

And

:

00:52:59,510 --> 00:53:00,785

Christine: so the judges are

making their lives worse.

:

00:53:00,785 --> 00:53:00,947

And I would

:

00:53:00,952 --> 00:53:04,670

Hugh: say, I would understand that if

the judge if the, if the ruling that

:

00:53:04,670 --> 00:53:06,320

makes them feel that way was correct.

:

00:53:06,350 --> 00:53:06,920

Christine: Right, right,

:

00:53:06,925 --> 00:53:07,065

Hugh: right.

:

00:53:07,125 --> 00:53:10,670

But, and, and the, you know, to their

credit, most of the time opposing

:

00:53:10,670 --> 00:53:13,370

counsel in those conversations

has said, oh, I, I get that.

:

00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:14,570

But it is what it is.

:

00:53:14,575 --> 00:53:14,625

Mm-hmm.

:

00:53:14,705 --> 00:53:17,660

The judge has now made them feel

like, emboldened they're going to win.

:

00:53:17,660 --> 00:53:21,065

And, and we're not gonna, we're not gonna

settle this case time and bold them to

:

00:53:21,065 --> 00:53:23,540

Christine: shop at the target in

New Albany probably every day.

:

00:53:23,780 --> 00:53:24,230

What.

:

00:53:24,755 --> 00:53:27,575

Target, well, to go to New Albany,

to that new target or whatever.

:

00:53:28,085 --> 00:53:29,045

Oh, to go to bridge To go back and forth.

:

00:53:29,045 --> 00:53:29,225

Yeah.

:

00:53:29,225 --> 00:53:30,125

And not pay the Charles.

:

00:53:30,125 --> 00:53:30,395

Yeah.

:

00:53:30,605 --> 00:53:30,905

Gosh.

:

00:53:31,025 --> 00:53:31,685

Oh my gosh.

:

00:53:31,815 --> 00:53:37,395

And then so I'll say today's Thursday,

I've probably talked to 15, maybe 20

:

00:53:37,395 --> 00:53:39,495

lawyers this week, which is a high week.

:

00:53:39,495 --> 00:53:42,615

I mean, I usually talk, I've got

my like group of people, but I'm

:

00:53:42,615 --> 00:53:44,565

starting to get more and more

and more attorneys reached out.

:

00:53:44,565 --> 00:53:47,685

But I did have one attorney reach out

to me and say partic in particular,

:

00:53:47,685 --> 00:53:52,065

I made a video probably about six

months ago that said Brian Gatewood

:

00:53:52,375 --> 00:53:54,295

paid a lot of money to get that job.

:

00:53:54,325 --> 00:53:59,675

I mean, he, he paid his husband works for

Purnell Sausage and you know, millionaire,

:

00:53:59,675 --> 00:54:01,055

millionaire, blah, blah, blah.

:

00:54:01,265 --> 00:54:02,165

But he hates it.

:

00:54:02,165 --> 00:54:03,185

He seems like he hates it.

:

00:54:03,185 --> 00:54:05,135

And this lawyer called me

up and said, that's the most

:

00:54:05,135 --> 00:54:06,665

accurate video you've done.

:

00:54:06,975 --> 00:54:08,985

And you've done a lot of accurate

videos and some of the shit

:

00:54:08,985 --> 00:54:09,915

you say I don't agree with.

:

00:54:09,915 --> 00:54:14,535

And, but it seems that every single time

he's on the bench, he's angry to be there.

:

00:54:14,625 --> 00:54:14,775

Oh yeah.

:

00:54:15,135 --> 00:54:18,555

Uh, and I do think that's

something that, you know.

:

00:54:18,735 --> 00:54:23,635

I wish he would realize if he did want

this position, that maybe he sh that's

:

00:54:23,695 --> 00:54:27,655

the what he is like portraying to people

and the people that will vote for him.

:

00:54:27,655 --> 00:54:31,045

And maybe he'll just realize, Hey, you

know, I would like to be, I would like

:

00:54:31,045 --> 00:54:33,865

to present myself differently, you know,

and that's in his hands, or do something

:

00:54:33,865 --> 00:54:34,705

Hugh: different for a living.

:

00:54:35,755 --> 00:54:38,755

I mean, we, for one, for a period

of time, we had two judges who

:

00:54:38,755 --> 00:54:40,195

just clearly hated their job.

:

00:54:40,375 --> 00:54:41,965

At least that was the

impression that I got.

:

00:54:41,965 --> 00:54:44,605

I was like, either they hate

me or they hate their job.

:

00:54:44,845 --> 00:54:48,775

And one of them at least, was like very

friendly with me, always like really

:

00:54:48,775 --> 00:54:52,685

cool with me outside of the court and

who had been on the bench, in a different

:

00:54:52,685 --> 00:54:57,215

court and was always, you know, you know,

always just acted very differently and

:

00:54:57,215 --> 00:55:00,785

was, was super pleasant to be in front

of and got on the family court bench.

:

00:55:00,785 --> 00:55:03,545

It just, just acted like they hated it.

:

00:55:03,965 --> 00:55:07,235

And I thought, I don't think

it's me in that circumstance.

:

00:55:07,235 --> 00:55:07,560

No, no, no.

:

00:55:07,565 --> 00:55:07,745

Yeah, yeah.

:

00:55:07,745 --> 00:55:08,765

Maybe they ate their job.

:

00:55:08,765 --> 00:55:12,215

I, with Gatewood, I could never tell

because I, I had it out with him on one.

:

00:55:12,830 --> 00:55:17,240

One case where he threatened to take

my client's child then and there

:

00:55:17,270 --> 00:55:19,910

while we were sitting there, if I

didn't remand something in a different

:

00:55:19,910 --> 00:55:21,530

action that was not in his court.

:

00:55:22,010 --> 00:55:24,860

And I called him out on it and

tried to remove him from the case.

:

00:55:24,860 --> 00:55:27,530

And, and, uh, I, I think so.

:

00:55:27,530 --> 00:55:27,531

Yeah.

:

00:55:27,536 --> 00:55:28,345

He's got it out for you probably.

:

00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:28,910

Yeah.

:

00:55:28,910 --> 00:55:33,080

Well, I, I, I, it was months

before I, he would make eye

:

00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:34,280

contact with me at a hearing.

:

00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:36,470

He would not even look

over at, at my table.

:

00:55:36,470 --> 00:55:40,400

My client would be talking and he would

be looking in some other direction.

:

00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:41,990

It was just kind of, kind of strange.

:

00:55:42,110 --> 00:55:43,700

Christine: Well, it's

like beyond like a child.

:

00:55:43,700 --> 00:55:45,080

And we have a lot of that in family court.

:

00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:47,720

See, this is how we get on our

tangents and then we don't get to

:

00:55:47,720 --> 00:55:49,310

hear any of the fun little comments.

:

00:55:49,670 --> 00:55:55,190

Um, but yesterday, so we did get a lot

of comments about our, um, the public

:

00:55:55,190 --> 00:55:59,030

is loving the, going to court and

seeing how many judges are working.

:

00:55:59,420 --> 00:56:00,620

They are sending comments.

:

00:56:00,650 --> 00:56:04,040

Uh, maybe they were having

a long three martini lunch.

:

00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:04,790

Hugh: Oh Lord,

:

00:56:04,850 --> 00:56:06,440

Christine: can you drink

three martinis at one set?

:

00:56:08,030 --> 00:56:08,510

Hugh: What do you mean?

:

00:56:08,510 --> 00:56:08,840

Me personally?

:

00:56:09,245 --> 00:56:09,560

Like if I had like, in

:

00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:11,180

Christine: one setting,

like three martinis,

:

00:56:11,330 --> 00:56:13,251

Hugh: oh, I could easily

drink three martinis, dude.

:

00:56:13,460 --> 00:56:13,880

I would buy it.

:

00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:15,770

Probably be a much more

entertaining podcast.

:

00:56:15,860 --> 00:56:16,280

Christine: Oh my gosh.

:

00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:19,790

Well, actually I love a good vesper,

but I mean, I would be drunk.

:

00:56:19,790 --> 00:56:20,090

Drunk.

:

00:56:20,090 --> 00:56:21,650

I would if I had three

martini, like drunk, drunk.

:

00:56:21,740 --> 00:56:22,520

Hugh: Oh, I would be too.

:

00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:23,255

I, yeah.

:

00:56:23,255 --> 00:56:24,425

I'm ashamed to say help.

:

00:56:24,605 --> 00:56:26,160

How sick That would probably make me.

:

00:56:26,615 --> 00:56:26,975

Christine: Oh no.

:

00:56:26,975 --> 00:56:28,775

I'm just like, but I

guess that was old school.

:

00:56:29,005 --> 00:56:30,445

Hugh: That's just straight up alcohol.

:

00:56:30,445 --> 00:56:32,485

That's just like alcohol in a glass,

:

00:56:32,485 --> 00:56:32,725

Christine: dude.

:

00:56:32,725 --> 00:56:36,755

And I, I mean, I love Mia Vesper,

getting paid and not working.

:

00:56:36,755 --> 00:56:40,115

I wanna find my little buddy that

just not happy with what we're doing.

:

00:56:40,115 --> 00:56:40,955

Clap, clap, clap.

:

00:56:40,955 --> 00:56:41,975

I love what you're doing.

:

00:56:41,975 --> 00:56:44,495

This is why they don't have

time to look at evidence because

:

00:56:44,495 --> 00:56:46,055

they're at their vacation home.

:

00:56:46,685 --> 00:56:47,555

What do you think about that?

:

00:56:48,095 --> 00:56:48,815

Hugh: I don't know.

:

00:56:48,815 --> 00:56:53,255

I mean, I don't, I don't necessarily

think all of our judges are, you

:

00:56:53,255 --> 00:56:57,155

know, I, I, I think there's this

public perception that judges are all.

:

00:56:58,070 --> 00:57:01,640

You know, rich, snobby people

that with vacation homes and,

:

00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:03,650

and some may be, some may not be.

:

00:57:03,650 --> 00:57:04,970

They come from all walks of life.

:

00:57:04,970 --> 00:57:09,290

They definitely a lot of different

backgrounds, uh, on the bench.

:

00:57:09,290 --> 00:57:10,430

So I, I don't know.

:

00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:11,360

Some may be,

:

00:57:11,475 --> 00:57:11,765

Christine: yeah,

:

00:57:12,020 --> 00:57:14,960

Hugh: some may be, some

may be sitting at home.

:

00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:15,680

I don't, I don't know.

:

00:57:15,980 --> 00:57:19,850

Christine: Then they schedule a hearing

months out at which time you've millions

:

00:57:19,850 --> 00:57:23,030

of other problems with the opposing

party, but you can't bring them up

:

00:57:23,030 --> 00:57:27,080

because they can't multitask to hear

different topics at the same time.

:

00:57:27,080 --> 00:57:28,040

Now that's true.

:

00:57:28,820 --> 00:57:31,280

Um, you wait months for a hearing

and then while you're waiting for

:

00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:34,610

that hearing, there's so many, uh.

:

00:57:35,210 --> 00:57:37,850

Other problems that come up and then

you gotta wait months for that hearing.

:

00:57:38,090 --> 00:57:38,630

You know what I mean?

:

00:57:38,900 --> 00:57:39,320

Hugh: Oh yeah.

:

00:57:39,350 --> 00:57:39,620

No.

:

00:57:39,620 --> 00:57:42,920

By the time you were, uh, as

a practitioner, it was, it was

:

00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:45,980

quite regular that we would have

a hearing scheduled on one issue.

:

00:57:46,310 --> 00:57:49,100

By the time we could get in front of

the court on that issue, something

:

00:57:49,100 --> 00:57:53,420

more important came up and we agreed,

let, can we use this hearing to address

:

00:57:53,450 --> 00:57:56,990

something more important and then get

a hearing later on for the thing that

:

00:57:56,990 --> 00:58:00,170

we originally got the hearing for,

because just the passage of time.

:

00:58:00,620 --> 00:58:03,800

Christine: And then I've got a huge

fan that, he comments on everything.

:

00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:05,480

S-Y-B-A-U.

:

00:58:05,570 --> 00:58:06,045

Do you know what that means?

:

00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:09,530

Hugh: Shut your bitch ass up.

:

00:58:10,010 --> 00:58:11,720

Christine: I did not

know I had to Google it.

:

00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:13,640

I was like, and I even responded to him.

:

00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:14,930

It's like, oh my God, I love you.

:

00:58:14,930 --> 00:58:20,450

And I love that saying and like he,

I don't know, it's just like I do.

:

00:58:20,570 --> 00:58:23,000

And then somebody said, which

I didn't know either, that it's

:

00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:24,380

Burger's Week in Louisville.

:

00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:28,270

So I did a guess PO like before

we did yesterday and did eight.

:

00:58:28,510 --> 00:58:32,830

And this person won, I'm not sure if

it's burger's week in Louisville as well.

:

00:58:32,830 --> 00:58:34,510

I'm gonna say eight judges on the bench.

:

00:58:34,570 --> 00:58:37,090

So they won, maybe they were

out supporting the community.

:

00:58:37,390 --> 00:58:37,750

I don't know.

:

00:58:37,750 --> 00:58:38,230

Hugh: They said eight.

:

00:58:38,770 --> 00:58:39,070

Christine: Eight.

:

00:58:39,070 --> 00:58:39,460

Yeah.

:

00:58:40,060 --> 00:58:42,250

Hugh: I saw the, on the

poll, 50% of people were.

:

00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:43,930

Got the correct range?

:

00:58:44,110 --> 00:58:44,830

Christine: Oh, I don't know.

:

00:58:44,830 --> 00:58:45,460

I haven't even checked.

:

00:58:45,460 --> 00:58:47,380

That was like only an

hour after I posted it.

:

00:58:47,380 --> 00:58:48,700

See, I'm terrible at that.

:

00:58:48,700 --> 00:58:48,880

Yeah.

:

00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:49,785

It following I through, I

:

00:58:49,785 --> 00:58:52,990

Hugh: think it was 50% had the range of

what, eight to 10 or something like that.

:

00:58:52,990 --> 00:58:53,140

So

:

00:58:53,140 --> 00:58:56,290

Christine: right now, and

this poll will expire soon.

:

00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:58,690

Uh, 23% said zero to four.

:

00:58:58,870 --> 00:59:00,340

53% were accurate.

:

00:59:00,340 --> 00:59:06,800

Said four to 10, 17% said 10

to 25 and 7% said 25 to 39,

:

00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:08,870

which honestly, I don't know.

:

00:59:08,910 --> 00:59:13,830

One of my followers commented, I'd say, do

you think there's ever 25 courtrooms open?

:

00:59:14,580 --> 00:59:14,670

Hugh: No.

:

00:59:14,670 --> 00:59:14,910

Never.

:

00:59:15,300 --> 00:59:15,720

Christine: I don't know.

:

00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:17,550

Maybe, um, if you could time it right.

:

00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:20,610

A Monday at 11 is what I would guess.

:

00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:22,620

'cause you're gonna have, I

think you're gonna have all

:

00:59:22,620 --> 00:59:24,600

10 family court judges really?

:

00:59:24,690 --> 00:59:25,440

Hugh: Monday at 11.

:

00:59:25,620 --> 00:59:26,070

Christine: Yeah.

:

00:59:26,370 --> 00:59:28,950

Because that's gonna be, if

you were to do the timing right

:

00:59:28,950 --> 00:59:30,360

with their paternity dockets.

:

00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:32,730

Because the ones that don't have

that, although I don't know.

:

00:59:33,090 --> 00:59:36,150

Hugh: And then, I mean, you would never

have circuit hearings unless it was

:

00:59:36,150 --> 00:59:40,170

just Absolutely, you know, something

that had to be squeezed in because

:

00:59:40,230 --> 00:59:42,030

nobody will schedule 'em on Monday.

:

00:59:42,030 --> 00:59:43,890

'cause you might have a motion

hour in front of a different judge.

:

00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:45,540

Christine: Oh, they're having, well

they're having some and they're

:

00:59:45,540 --> 00:59:49,080

having the child support ones, uh,

with like the child support workers.

:

00:59:49,140 --> 00:59:51,540

Well, but you're gonna have this,

you're gonna have the 13 circuit

:

00:59:51,540 --> 00:59:54,510

judges there, I'd say on Monday

at 10, they're gonna all be there.

:

00:59:55,350 --> 00:59:59,490

So that would be, I'd be willing to,

let's bet 23 of them, let's just say.

:

00:59:59,820 --> 01:00:03,480

So then that all you would need to

get 25 would be three, uh, district.

:

01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:05,370

And I'd say there would be

the six courtrooms open.

:

01:00:05,430 --> 01:00:05,670

Okay.

:

01:00:05,670 --> 01:00:06,810

You said 25?

:

01:00:07,890 --> 01:00:08,580

Well, that's 23

:

01:00:08,580 --> 01:00:09,090

Hugh: plus six.

:

01:00:09,095 --> 01:00:09,225

Okay.

:

01:00:09,230 --> 01:00:09,480

Okay.

:

01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:10,800

I'll, I will 29.

:

01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:11,880

I'll take you up on that.

:

01:00:12,030 --> 01:00:12,960

So Monday at 11.

:

01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:15,240

So my track record sucks.

:

01:00:15,330 --> 01:00:15,960

At this point.

:

01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:18,840

I need to redeem myself, but I

think that's a good, I think that's,

:

01:00:19,665 --> 01:00:22,260

I, I think 23 is pie in the sky.

:

01:00:22,335 --> 01:00:22,625

Christine: Okay.

:

01:00:22,625 --> 01:00:23,705

Well I think there'll be 25.

:

01:00:23,970 --> 01:00:26,640

I think there'll be 25 courtrooms

open if we go Monday at 11.

:

01:00:26,730 --> 01:00:28,740

Hugh: You 25, now you're going full 25.

:

01:00:28,740 --> 01:00:29,040

Christine: Yep.

:

01:00:30,075 --> 01:00:31,275

Hugh: And if you're wrong, if I'm wrong,

:

01:00:31,275 --> 01:00:33,045

Christine: I'll owe you

a three martini lunch.

:

01:00:33,255 --> 01:00:33,405

Oh Lord.

:

01:00:33,405 --> 01:00:35,805

And then we could just come back to

court and see how that works out.

:

01:00:36,015 --> 01:00:37,245

Hugh: Oh my Lord.

:

01:00:37,630 --> 01:00:39,525

Why don't we just come

in here and hit record.

:

01:00:40,365 --> 01:00:41,145

Christine: Oh my goodness.

:

01:00:41,145 --> 01:00:41,565

Comedy

:

01:00:41,565 --> 01:00:41,925

Hugh: gold.

:

01:00:42,015 --> 01:00:42,375

Christine: Yes.

:

01:00:42,375 --> 01:00:42,825

Literally.

:

01:00:42,825 --> 01:00:46,245

Or it would just be like

sloppy and all the things would

:

01:00:46,245 --> 01:00:48,645

Hugh: be just like, like, like

I'm going to lose all credibility

:

01:00:48,645 --> 01:00:49,485

Christine: on everything.

:

01:00:49,545 --> 01:00:51,135

Hugh: Wake me up on when

there's something to talk about.

:

01:00:51,255 --> 01:00:51,855

Christine: Oh my goodness.

:

01:00:51,855 --> 01:00:54,795

All right, y'all, judge e judge y.com.

:

01:00:54,795 --> 01:00:55,905

We are working.

:

01:00:55,905 --> 01:01:02,025

I'm hoping that by mid July we should

have maybe some updates about just like

:

01:01:02,025 --> 01:01:03,885

a timeline for what the plan should be.

:

01:01:03,885 --> 01:01:05,505

Does that sound about right?

:

01:01:05,505 --> 01:01:06,285

To have an update?

:

01:01:06,405 --> 01:01:06,555

Yep.

:

01:01:06,765 --> 01:01:07,065

Awesome.

:

01:01:07,065 --> 01:01:08,745

We appreciate y'all's love so much.

:

01:01:08,745 --> 01:01:10,905

And make sure to S-Y-A-B-U.

:

01:01:12,015 --> 01:01:12,016

Bye.

:

01:01:12,021 --> 01:01:12,165

Bye./

:

01:01:13,046 --> 01:01:13,526

Next call.

:

01:01:13,526 --> 01:01:15,731

We need some justice, justice, justice.

:

01:01:16,166 --> 01:01:17,546

And I wanna ring bells in public.

:

01:01:17,906 --> 01:01:20,276

I wanna ring bes in public nor crowd.

:

01:01:20,336 --> 01:01:22,171

Yeah, but I To the fo Yeah.

:

01:01:22,371 --> 01:01:23,931

I To the fo Yeah.

:

01:01:24,011 --> 01:01:27,651

I to the fo fo teaser.

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About the Podcast

The JudgeMental Podcast
From the Creators of Judge-y
The JudgeMental Podcast features two attorneys, Hugh and Christine, who bring over three decades of combined litigation experience to the mic. Now venturing into a bold new initiative—"Judge-y", a website and soon-to-be app—they aim to give lawyers and litigants a platform to evaluate judges and promote accountability within the judiciary.

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Hugh Barrow