Episode 4

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Published on:

24th Jul 2025

Ep 04 Pardon the Delay

 On today's episode of the Judgmental Podcast, Christine and Hugh dive into the major problem that is delays in Family court. Hugh shares a personal experience of what happened to his client in Oldham County. Christine dives in to give more backstory about her journey over the last two years since she left family Court.

Transcript
Speaker:

On today's episode of the Judgmental

Podcast, we dive into the major

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problem that is delays in Family court.

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Hugh shares a personal experience of what

happened to his client in Oldham County.

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I dive in and give more backstory

about my journey over the last two

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years since I left family Court./

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You are listening to

The Judgemental Podcast.

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We're Hugh and Christine, the Minds

Behind Judgy, the revolutionary app

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that empowers you to judge the judges.

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It's pastime for judicial accountability

and transparency within the courts.

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Prepare for sharp insights, candid

critiques, and unshakable honesty from

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two lawyers determined to save the system.

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We need some justice.

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Justice, my fine justice.

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And I wanna ring, be in public.

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I wanna ring, be in public crowd.

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Yeah.

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Christine: Oldham was one of my

least favorite counties to go to.

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I think.

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Hugh: I, I, for my clients, I,

I say you gotta stay out because

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you are not gonna get an order No.

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For years.

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If you're financially disadvantaged Yeah.

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Then it's, it's gonna get

worse before it gets better.

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How long did

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Christine: you wait for that one

order outta olden that everybody

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in the world knows about?

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Hugh: Oh, it was over two years.

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Mm-hmm.

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It was a two day trial.

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There were multiple case management

conference that my partner and I

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think it opposing counsel, so there

were three parties to the case.

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So it was a complex case,

but it involved a child.

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It involved a very sick one of the

parties to the marriage was very sick.

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Mm-hmm.

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Hugh: It involved a house that

was being lost, a business and

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a farm that were falling apart.

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Things like they were just,

they were losing everything.

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And they had this third party claim to, I

believe, one of the pieces of real estate.

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And they had intervened and

there was a business interest

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that needed to be resolved.

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And so the case took

about two days to try.

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And then next, how long before trial?

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Like

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Christine: how long before

day cases filed till trial?

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I

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Hugh: don't know.

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Like, I don't remember.

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I wasn't the primary on that case.

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But

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Christine: more than a year probably.

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Hugh: Yeah, I'm sure.

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Okay.

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I'm sure.

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I mean, even a basic case is gonna take

that long if, if you have to go to trial.

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So it took a long time to get to trial.

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Had the trial scheduled.

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There were lots of depositions.

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There were just, um, people hiding money.

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One of the parties had been.

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For instance, we found through Discovery

had been taking his paycheck and he sent,

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uh, he divided one paycheck into 20.

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He had it spread among 20

different bank accounts.

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20, or it might have been

22, but it was 20 or more.

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Mm-hmm.

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So it'd be hard to track how

much money was coming in.

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Yeah.

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And was only showing like, part of it.

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I mean, it was, it was one of those,

but during the two years post-trial,

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there were, there was some motion,

some litigation that occurred.

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It was almost all because they had not

had a ruling and something was happening

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and both parties were filing for case

management conference for the sole purpose

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of saying, judge, this is falling apart.

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We need an order.

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We need kept hearing.

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We needed a decision.

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Yeah, I'm working on it.

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I'm putting finishing touches

on, I'm about to get it out.

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And then another, you know, six months

would go by, bring it before the

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motion hour it gets, get really, you

know, the court would be very annoyed

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that we're bringing it up again.

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And it, by the time we were

done, the house was already gone.

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Third party issue was, I

guess extinguished probably.

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'cause they lost the house.

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Mm-hmm.

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Something like that.

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I mean, it was, that issue was resolved.

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The child was no longer a child

by the time the order came out and

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the motions for child support were

pending through the whole thing.

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So, I mean, yeah, each month that goes

by there is accumulated child support,

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but the order came out and said, well,

by this time the child's 18th, so child

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support is moot and awarded nothing.

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Christine: You're kidding me.

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For

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Hugh: the intervening two years.

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And it's just

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Christine: too late to, I mean, and

the parties at that point probably

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didn't even have money to appeal.

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They,

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Hugh: they got to, it was funny.

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That is the one thing that could

get those parties to sit down at the

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table and settle because they sat

down and settled because we told 'em

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the appeal would be, eh, the appeal's

what, a year, year and a half.

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And that's I mean that's just,

we know that's what it is.

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Yeah.

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Um, and they didn't wanna do it.

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And we told them what

would happen on appeal.

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Even if they said the

judge got it all wrong.

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They would say, go back in front of

that same judge, do it all over again.

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And I mean, I, I think

one of the litigants.

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Legitimately was concerned that by

the time it got resolved at that

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point they would no longer be alive.

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Christine: Oh my goodness.

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And so, I mean, how tragic though it got

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Hugh: settled and it got settled in

a way that was a terrible compromise.

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So much worse than what I

believed our client should get.

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But the other side didn't do

a whole lot better because so

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many of the assets were lost.

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Yeah.

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Because neither of them could do

anything with them to save them while

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the court was, was waiting trauma.

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And, and at the same time I had that,

I had another one that was well over

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a year that we were waiting on that

involved two little kids and allegations

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of substance abuse you know, cohabitation

with, with somebody that was, you

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know, the new boyfriend who the kids

were not supposed to be exposed to.

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And they were, you know, went to go

live with them in the intervening time.

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And we can't get an

order out to do anything.

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Christine: Yeah,

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Hugh: well over a year.

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Christine: I mean, there

there is zero excuse for that.

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I don't care how many cases, I don't care.

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I mean, and this is one of the

problems and hopefully the, you know,

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the judges will be listening, but

no matter how complacent you become

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with your job, I mean, big picture,

there has to be a better way to do it.

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Or, or we should just

give up quite frankly.

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I mean, if this is the best

that the system can operate

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as, we just should give up.

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Hugh: Well, I mean, to a certain extent,

you and I both took different paths

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to get to that, to giving up and we,

we faced some, you know, something

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happened there, there was a reflection

point for each of us for totally

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different reasons where we thought,

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thought,

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Hugh: okay, I, like, for me personally, it

was, I, I got to about the 20 year point.

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Yeah.

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It was

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Hugh: time to, a lot of my decision was

based on business things and what I wanted

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the business to look like, and if I wanted

to spend the next 20 years doing the same

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thing, or I wanted to go in new ventures.

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Yeah.

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And I was fortunate enough to

be in a position I could kind

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of do whatever I wanted, but.

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The other part of it was I had already

pulled back from so much from the actual

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practice itself because I was just,

just I didn't believe in the system.

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The system didn't work.

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I, I, when I came in as an attorney,

believed that if you're more prepared

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and you can tell the best story

and you do the things right and you

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object to the right time, you go

through that, you're set to win.

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And it's just, well, hell, I was more

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Christine: naive than that.

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I thought that the truth

is what would matter.

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Hugh: Oh, wow.

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Plus my heart, you know?

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Yeah.

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But I mean, I understand you, you

had, I mean, you had brushes, um,

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actually with the system and got to

see from a litigants point of view or

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from someone other than an attorney.

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You know, how the system worked?

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Christine: Well, I mean, I, I got

divorced and that's what made me

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realize I knew all the answers,

quote unquote, you know what I mean?

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But I would get an email from my attorney

at the time and it would just send

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you into this spiral and you know what

the judge is gonna do, but it's still

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the notion that you're with somebody

that knows everything about you.

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And it really changed the way

I practice with my clients.

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Yeah.

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It was like they are going

through such an emotional time.

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Like you can't articulate it in

a way until it happens to you.

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And I mean, thank God I didn't

have kids and yada, yada yada.

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But still, it's just a very, it's a, it's

your personal business in a court of law.

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And there is not a single person out

here that hasn't done something that

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they don't want to have to testify to.

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You know what I mean?

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Hugh: Absolutely.

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Christine: And, and, you know, and.

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It did change the way I treated my

clients and I did love the notion of

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being like, we can get resolutions,

we can get those sort of things.

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But I do think my journey to get

where I am today was, you know,

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that was my divorce was when,

God bless, I don't even know.

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2017, I think maybe 2018.

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Um, and then as everyone in Louisville

knows in:

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motion hour for something I should have

never been going to motion hour for.

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And I was a pedestrian, got hit by

a truck, um, suffered a concussion,

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traumatic brain injury and was,

it took a long time to be properly

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diagnosed and then was off work.

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I was cleared to go back to work

part-time when the world shut down

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for COVID, um, which was a blessing

in disguise for me to fully heal.

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But you do have this different

perspective in the sense that.

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The best, the best way I can explain it

is like the night before the accident, I

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don't really remember what I was doing.

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Like I don't have a clear memory, but

I'm sure it was like ordering DoorDash,

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having wine stressed out about all of the

motions I had to go through the next day.

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It was a gor, you know, gorgeous Sunday.

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And then you realize like,

that could have been it.

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Mm-hmm.

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And like, so what was the point?

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And that really started

the process of, what is it?

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I wanna live each day that if I get

hit by a truck, I wanna be happy

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with what what I did that day.

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And really had a process of that

and was back in the system, but

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really wanted to get out of it.

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I mean, especially because COVID

trying to figure out my next steps.

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And then obviously that's when the

ex parte thing happened, uh, with

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the TikTok judge and the domestic

violence victim I was representing.

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And so that was sort of, the beginning

of the end, you know, for me.

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And some of the judges try to

utilize that to say certain things.

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You know, Denise Brown actually

put it in a court order.

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Um, put what she put that I had suffered

a traumatic brain injury in a court order.

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Just as a dig.

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And that was the case with

the dome domestic violence as

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Hugh: a court order, not in your

personal case, but No, you were,

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were you were an attorney, attorney.

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Attorney.

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Yeah.

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After

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Christine: she'd ex parte me, I

filed a motion for her to recuse.

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No, most people don't know that

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Hugh: personal details of an attorney

being put into a court order is

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Christine: oh, beyond inappropriate.

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Wow.

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I actually did, and my poor client,

after everything that they had been

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through with this notion of just the

sheer incompetence that was family court

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and, and going and seeking protection,

and again, I don't wanna get into

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the specifics of that client's case

until I have their full permission.

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But it's all a matter of public record.

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But that was, I mean, the level of

vindictiveness from this judge, and

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obviously I filed the appropriate

motion, it was sent to a different

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judge, and of course the judge struck

all of that nonsense from the record

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because just blatantly, I mean,

that's like fourth grade level.

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Mean girl type stuff, but I digress.

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But these judges are going to utilize

that they already have utilized my car

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accident to say that I'm not right,

or that it has affected my ability.

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And you know, like I say, jokingly, like

two things can be true at the same time.

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I can be crazy and y'all

are bad at your job,

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you know?

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I mean, what do you and I do?

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Every anybody out there that's

listening, like after this, I, I got

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hit in 2019 and it was a struggle.

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I mean, a significant struggle.

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I struggled financially, emotionally,

physically, mentally but I got properly

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diagnosed, got proper treatment.

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Since that time, I have been on a

nonprofit, the board of a nonprofit.

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I have run for judge.

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I have bought a house, I have,

rented out a realty company.

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Like there is not a notion, anyone

listening that it's not gonna be okay.

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And that you got this, you know, just

because people wanna exploit, uh.

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They are, um, what's the word?

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Lazy.

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So that's the best way is just

to attack someone personally.

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And, and also, uh, some of them that

are attacking me personally, they

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had my yard sign up when I ran for

judge in their yard after my accident.

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So that puts things in perspective

for how, uh, how much they thought

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it affected me at the time.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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I've, I've not had that experience.

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I, my experiences were

never personal to me.

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They were personally disturbing to me.

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I think, um, were, some of my experiences

in court were a, a large factor in

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being on anxiety medicine and, and, and

being unwell in my practice is because

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a family law practice is rather unique

in that you just get so involved in

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people's lives, especially when you're

dealing with kids issues that even,

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even kids you've never met, you are.

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It's like you're defending

your own child sometimes.

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Mm-hmm.

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And especially when you know you're

on the side of the person that's

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doing everything right and, and

really cares for the, for the child.

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And to see kids ripped, ripped away

at a moment's notice at a hearing that

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you'll never see this child again.

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And, you know, to this day, years

later, have never seen the child again

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when that's the only person who had

raised the child from, from birth.

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Just because you know, frankly,

maybe a judge is just in a bad mood

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or doesn't like, you know, that you

filed something in another court

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just because it had been sitting for

six months inactive in his or hers.

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Yeah.

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Hugh: I mean, seeing those kinds

of things felt very personal.

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I, and I think that

was because I had kids.

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But, but again, that's

very different than having.

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The personal experience that

you have and, and your personal

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details coming into pleadings.

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But

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Christine: well the personal thing to

me really is just more the, realizing

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the ineffectiveness of a system.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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Christine: You know what I mean?

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Like, you realize, okay, 'cause she did

this to me, and then you think, oh my

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gosh, imagine what she's doing to people.

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That don't have law license, that

are pro se or that can't defend

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themself all in a matter to have

more of like political power.

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Um, but I do think you touched

on like anxiety medication.

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I don't know.

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There is a lot of trauma and mental health

issues within the family law profession.

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Sure.

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Christine: You know, I mean, hon

I'm on honestly healthier now than

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I was when I got hit by a car.

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I was on anxiety medication,

um, when I got hit.

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And my doctor believes that that had

an effect on, you know, my, my brain at

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the time because it does mess with it.

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So I would say my brain's probably

healthier today than it was before.

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I'm

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Hugh: a lot healthier than

when I, when I practiced.

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But I think, you know, the, the,

when you say there's a lot of trauma

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in, in family law, I mean, I think

there's, there are different types.

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Uh, I think on the one hand you've

got people that go into family law

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because they've experienced mm-hmm.

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Really bad situations in their families or

when they were a child and they want to.

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Be an advocate and they want to

fight for, you know, fight within

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a system that actually helps

resolve some of those things.

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Or at least that's why they get

into it, thinking that it does.

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You also have people that are traumatized

by the system once they get into it.

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That, that was how I was, I

didn't, I didn't come into this as

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a mission because of some trauma

I'd had in my personal life.

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Mm-hmm.

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It wasn't a personal mission.

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It was a business decision.

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I liked being in court and

family law puts you in court.

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Mm-hmm.

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A lot more.

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And I did, I didn't, I didn't have

that personal connection to it at

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all until I had my own kids and my

practice changed greatly when everybody

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that came in and talked about their

kids, I just saw it differently.

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It wasn't like just another

thing we're fighting over.

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I got it as a parent and that that

changed, but I, you know, I mine.

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To the extent there was any personal

trauma, it was just feeling like something

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that I had believed in, that I had

obviously naively come into thinking, this

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is a court of law, this is how it works.

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There are rules.

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Yeah.

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Attorneys fight by the rules.

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We're gonna do everything in our

power to win for our client and do

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what's right, but within the rules.

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Mm-hmm.

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And then you come in and just being

told sometimes blatantly from the

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bitch, oh, I don't enforce that rule

in my courtroom, or, or I don't care

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Christine: what the case law says.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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Or just, that's fine.

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Take me upstairs.

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Basically meaning appeal me.

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Mm-hmm.

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I don't care.

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And, and just regularly being told that it

just sort of demeaned it, it felt like I

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was practicing somewhere other than a real

court or in a, in a proper profession.

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Like, and, and, and I think that to

a certain extent, at least as far as

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family law goes, 'cause that's, that's

where I made my, my the most, the,

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the bulk of the years of my career.

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Starting off in international

environmental law, but mainly worked

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as a family lawyer for 20 years.

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I got the feeling that other people sort

of thought that way about family court.

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Oh.

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It's just, it's not this area where

there, there are rules and it's

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just different in family court.

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Oh, I don't touch family court.

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You hear from so many other attorneys.

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I'll go to circuit court, I'll

go over to district court.

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Yeah.

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They may be a general practitioner doing

DUIs in the morning, probate in the

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afternoon, going over there and doing

a contract dispute in circuit court.

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And those are all very different things.

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But those same people will often

say, oh, I don't touch family court.

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That's just a different animal.

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Christine: It is its own animal.

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And I mean I, and how I stumbled upon it,

you know, we talked about last time and

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I did love it for quite some time, but

I do think we have the biggest burnout.

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I also think,

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Hugh: oh no doubt

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Christine: to explain.

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Like there's a few things that you

said today that I know from like the

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community that they think that attorneys

really, are corrupt with the judges.

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And I think what they don't understand,

and I don't mean to say this like in a

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condescending way, but what people on the

outside don't see, like you mentioned,

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like, hey, the judge is, you're waiting

on an order and so you're filing a

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motion, Hey judge, we need this order.

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And people don't understand why

we don't do that every week.

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And it's because we know the judge has

the power via that order to destroy them.

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Um, we're

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Hugh: protecting our

client by not doing it.

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Yes.

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But we're also taking the blame because

we don't seem that we're being proactive.

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Yeah.

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And it's, we've seen how vindictive.

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Punitive.

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The judges can be when you

point those things out.

390

:

And retaliatory.

391

:

Yeah.

392

:

And retaliatory.

393

:

Yeah.

394

:

And that's exactly right.

395

:

Christine: And like, I mean, you'll

tell judge, Hey Judge, you can't

396

:

ex parte, you have to recuse.

397

:

And it's like, Hey, you had a

traumatic brain injury a year ago.

398

:

I mean, that's the result that

you're gonna get in a public setting.

399

:

You know?

400

:

I mean, that's what Denise Brown did.

401

:

And so imagine if you're a litigant.

402

:

And I do think, obviously we'd be naive

to think or to say that a hundred percent

403

:

of attorneys are on the up are legit.

404

:

That's insane.

405

:

We don't believe it.

406

:

I don't believe it.

407

:

I've seen attorneys do

things that I would never do.

408

:

I've seen things we, we know who

409

:

Hugh: they are.

410

:

The ones that you, you see from

motion hour would just walk in the

411

:

back at the beginning of motion

hour, then come back out and sit

412

:

down with the rest of the attorneys.

413

:

You know, they just walked in the back

and talked to the judge and their buddies.

414

:

Yeah.

415

:

And just.

416

:

Christine: Yeah.

417

:

Oh.

418

:

And I mean, that happens.

419

:

That happens like, but I don't think the

large percentage of attorneys are bad.

420

:

I really don't.

421

:

Even the ones I don't like personally.

422

:

Hugh: Yeah.

423

:

And, you know, and there are plenty

of lazy practitioners or people that

424

:

just don't know the rules, but some

of that is reinforced by the system.

425

:

Mm-hmm.

426

:

I have practiced in family courts

in other states, pro hac, viche

427

:

or, you know, what's that mean?

428

:

Other states where I bar Oh, where,

where they, where the courts will let you

429

:

practice on a specific case by case basis.

430

:

You file, um, a request, you get the

backing of an attorney that's barred

431

:

in that state and you say, I have an

interest in practicing within this.

432

:

I will follow the rules

of, you know, Florida.

433

:

And it's only for one case.

434

:

Yeah.

435

:

Or you, you can practice for that case

as long as it takes your, your part of

436

:

that case, but it'll be in family court.

437

:

And I remember a specific hearing in

Florida and I thought the judge was

438

:

just absolutely nasty to everyone.

439

:

But.

440

:

The way she was nasty was just absolutely

busting everybody's balls about not,

441

:

if you made a legal argument, you had

to cite not only the case, but the

442

:

page where that they could find that.

443

:

And you had to have filed

something or have a copy.

444

:

Now, of course, if someone makes

an argument and you're responding

445

:

and you didn't have any idea they

were gonna make that argument, you

446

:

would think you'd get some grace.

447

:

But it was just like,

where can I find that?

448

:

No, no, no.

449

:

I don't wanna know generally about it.

450

:

Where do I find that?

451

:

I'm looking at the case

now, where do I find it?

452

:

And just the rules were

so absolutely strict.

453

:

And they treated it, I mean, the

clients were yelling at one another.

454

:

I mean, they were, it was emotional.

455

:

It was all the things that family law is.

456

:

Yeah, it makes you different

from other court settings.

457

:

But man, it was a court of law.

458

:

And law mattered and rules mattered.

459

:

And I remember in that case the result,

if you were not an attorney, didn't

460

:

understand why it happened that way,

you would see completely unjust.

461

:

Mm-hmm.

462

:

I still don't agree with it because I'm,

I'm biased toward my, our client, but

463

:

it was a plausible result and it was the

result of rules and whether this was met

464

:

or that was met and what the rule said.

465

:

And, you know, it's sort of,

what's, what's the old saying?

466

:

It's better for a hundred, uh, guilty men

to go free than an innocent man to be,

467

:

or, you know, what, whatever that Yeah.

468

:

That, that saying is, you kind of think

469

:

Christine: it, it just, at least it

was a court of law and at least it was,

470

:

there were, was a procedure the wrong

471

:

Hugh: per the wrong person may win

and, and people may still be hurt

472

:

by it, but I like, I mean, the kids,

the parent who doesn't have the kids'

473

:

best interest at heart may win because

they present better, or deadlines are

474

:

met or someone does discovery better.

475

:

Someone pays a better attorney.

476

:

That happens.

477

:

But I still believe that the system

being consistent and having rules will

478

:

ultimately get much better results

overall than the chaos we have now

479

:

on the average than something that

is so completely unpredictable.

480

:

That basically trains attorneys to

just do all kinds of things that

481

:

you would never see in, in any

other court or any other setting.

482

:

Mm-hmm.

483

:

And I think last time we talked, uh,

like talked about an attorney that when

484

:

I was trying to get a damning piece

of evidence in front of his client,

485

:

the attorney would just swat it out

my hand and the papers would fly.

486

:

I not really that, and I just,

we got stared at by the judge.

487

:

I'd look up waiting for

her to do something.

488

:

She didn't do it, grabbed another set.

489

:

'cause I had three sets.

490

:

Uh, you know, one was for the

judge, one was for my client, one

491

:

was to give to the opposing side.

492

:

And I go through all three

and he swats 'em all down.

493

:

And there's just piles of

papers around just so I can't

494

:

ask him questions about it.

495

:

And, you know, no direction

to have your client answer the

496

:

que It was just absolute chaos.

497

:

And I, I just remember that day being

impactful to me, that's just like,

498

:

no matter how well I'm prepared and

how I, I'm not gonna kick and scream.

499

:

I'm gonna walk in there,

I'm gonna present the facts.

500

:

I'm gonna follow the rules.

501

:

Didn't matter.

502

:

Doesn't matter.

503

:

Christine: And your client,

that's the flip side of it too.

504

:

Then you have to go and tell your client,

Hey, you just paid me $2,000 for today.

505

:

$2,500 for prep.

506

:

You know, I mean, et cetera, et cetera.

507

:

That was every

508

:

Hugh: $10,000 day.

509

:

Yeah.

510

:

But I, I continued representing

her for years after that.

511

:

Uh, and I don't know that we ever went

back in front of the judge on anything.

512

:

Majors did.

513

:

She learned.

514

:

We got, we got things done.

515

:

Christine: Oh, you wanna

hear a funny story?

516

:

I had a child support hearing one time.

517

:

It was like, so basic and obvious.

518

:

It's in front of a prior judge.

519

:

I won't say their name, but my client

literally pushed the like silent button

520

:

and said like, is this real life?

521

:

Are we in a movie?

522

:

Because it was just like, somehow we

were talking about he was owed child

523

:

support and it got to where the 14

or 15 or 16-year-old child was maybe

524

:

smoking marijuana allegedly, which was

not even remotely before the court.

525

:

I actually don't, and not relevant to

526

:

Hugh: child support in

any way, shape or form.

527

:

Christine: And none.

528

:

And also like it was allegations

that had happened, like when it was

529

:

under a different parenting schedule.

530

:

It was so bizarre.

531

:

And he was one of my favorite,

he's one of my first clients ever.

532

:

And I remember him being like,

I'll never go back in there.

533

:

Like, I'm gonna listen to you forever.

534

:

And I'm like, I told you, you don't

want these people making decisions.

535

:

And that doesn't happen.

536

:

It d in my experience and I'm gonna

give like, I'm gonna get, well, I

537

:

don't know, maybe I'll wait to give

a shout out to one of the judges.

538

:

I wanna see how much feedback.

539

:

'cause I do know that, that this judge

in particular will get negative feedback.

540

:

But in my experience was always

great, was always great to me,

541

:

was always followed the law.

542

:

Have you ever been held in contempt?

543

:

Hugh: I have been told multiple

times that if I said another word,

544

:

I would be in the room next door,

which is the holding chamber.

545

:

And especially like over in, in, in

a lot of the counties, the courtrooms

546

:

are all built the same to where even if

it's being used as a family court room,

547

:

they're used to having inmates put in a

waiting room right outside the courtroom

548

:

and then brought in by the deputy.

549

:

So they will have this room holding cell.

550

:

Yeah, holding cell

basically is what it is.

551

:

I have been told that.

552

:

Who are, you say?

553

:

I actually, no, I'm trying to think.

554

:

Oh man.

555

:

Uh, judge Garvey, Kevin Garvey

did it one time and I don't know

556

:

that he would've really done it.

557

:

He outside of court was

one of my favorites.

558

:

'cause he was a prankster

and he would do things.

559

:

Yeah, I know.

560

:

And he was, but man, I, I was always

afraid, afraid to be in front of him.

561

:

But I remember him, he told

me that a couple times.

562

:

I have been warned about it in a way

that I took as a, just a warning, not

563

:

that I was, you know, close to it.

564

:

I think that was in Mead County

early on and in front of a judge who

565

:

was known for Lock Judge Miller up.

566

:

No judge.

567

:

Uh, I loved

568

:

Christine: he rest in peace.

569

:

I loved him.

570

:

What was her

571

:

Hugh: name?

572

:

Embry.

573

:

Christine: Ah, maybe

574

:

Hugh: she, she had, uh, so two of

my colleagues had been arrested and

575

:

whenever they went down there, uh, had

been arrested for contempt in her court.

576

:

And they, they just had this thing,

if you were going down there, you told

577

:

someone and you made sure they had access

to money so they could get you out.

578

:

And I remember, uh, Steve Romines,

I think had been locked up down

579

:

there for trying to correct the

judge, the same judge on something.

580

:

And I think, uh, what a

581

:

Christine: fabulous litigator

582

:

Hugh: maybe, uh, pat Ren told me a similar

story, so I remember when I was going

583

:

down there like that just shocked me.

584

:

And he was like, oh, no,

that's a special case.

585

:

They're not, you know, you're not

gonna encounter that in other places.

586

:

That judge is just known

for that kind of stuff.

587

:

Yeah, I, I've never been

threaten with contempt.

588

:

Uh,

589

:

Christine: there was a time I

should have been held in contempt.

590

:

It was right before I

quit public defending.

591

:

Um, right after that SA trial there was

a prosecutor, we'd made a deal and the

592

:

judge was like, I'm not taking this deal.

593

:

It was like she was probably a

PFO and, uh, should have been more

594

:

time, but we got a misdemeanor plea.

595

:

And the prosecutor was like, I'll tell

you, judge, why we made this deal,

596

:

but I don't wanna tell Christine.

597

:

And I was like, is this real life?

598

:

Like in the middle of motion hour?

599

:

And like the judge looked at

the prosecutor like, you idiot.

600

:

You, you know?

601

:

And I was like, no,

seriously, is this real life?

602

:

And like everyone was just like

ignoring me, kind of, you know?

603

:

And then I was like, is this real life?

604

:

Like, I was just at my point

and the judge took the police,

605

:

so it worked for my client.

606

:

Hugh: But I mean, still, what, what

can a judge, I mean, what, what can

607

:

you say in that point where it is

just obvious what just happened?

608

:

Christine: Well, also it could be, I mean.

609

:

It could mean a plethora of things

for my client as far as like, what

610

:

does that mean from the community.

611

:

Seeing that on the record as far as like,

you know, this prosecutor was an idiot,

612

:

um, but like insinuating that potentially

that person was a confidential informant,

613

:

which certainly was not the case.

614

:

I represented them, but just the

way that, first off, it's ex parte.

615

:

Obviously you can't do it.

616

:

Like that's basic, basic, basic, but

just the notion of what you explain

617

:

Hugh: ex parte.

618

:

Christine: Ex parte is the judge

cannot talk to anybody on the

619

:

case without everybody present.

620

:

And by that I mean parties.

621

:

Parties and,

622

:

Hugh: and or attorneys.

623

:

Yeah.

624

:

So

625

:

Christine: like everybody

present in the case.

626

:

So like if you're getting a divorce

and there's mom and dad are getting a

627

:

divorce, the judge has can't talk to mom's

attorney without dad's attorney if they're

628

:

pro se can't talk to mom without dad.

629

:

Very, very, very minimal exceptions

as far as like scheduling details.

630

:

Sure.

631

:

Or reaching out, Hey, I need an

address so I can send you this order.

632

:

Oh yeah.

633

:

That's not, procedural stuff

is not considered ex parte.

634

:

You're not

635

:

Hugh: discussing the case.

636

:

But it has to be the

637

:

Christine: merits of the

case, facts of the case.

638

:

And this is this is a rule that's

so basic that, you know, Magneto

639

:

and my 14-year-old puppies watched

court enough during Zoom court that

640

:

he understands what ex parte means.

641

:

You know, anyone with a law license that

doesn't understand it should, should

642

:

be barred from the practice of law.

643

:

But yet I'd say I think it's

happening more than we think.

644

:

Hugh: Oh, it happens.

645

:

I know that it's happening.

646

:

Mm-hmm.

647

:

I mean, I've had.

648

:

I mean, I've, I've seen it on video

and I, I've had, um, other judges

649

:

when I brought the behavior of some

judges to other judges, you know, the

650

:

reaction is, is always frustration.

651

:

Mm-hmm.

652

:

Being very upset that it's

happening, but it's never shock.

653

:

And it's sort of, you know, it's,

it's always clear to me like,

654

:

oh yeah, this isn't, they know

that this isn't an ongoing issue.

655

:

Ugh.

656

:

I just, I just remembered, I, I

have at one time been so sure I

657

:

was going to be held in contempt

because I was not going to back off.

658

:

I was not gonna let a hearing happen.

659

:

And it was a case where, and this has

happened a whole bunch to me in the last

660

:

two, three years of my career, where

I would be intervening in a case clear

661

:

grounds for intervention necessary,

uh, party for intervention and.

662

:

Judge, you know, a judge will say,

well, that was filed after we had

663

:

already scheduled this hearing, so

we're gonna have the f final hearing

664

:

on the merits before, and then I'll

consider your motion to intervene.

665

:

It's like, you

666

:

Christine: can't, that's not how it works.

667

:

And

668

:

Hugh: it's, the rules are very clear.

669

:

But it was one of those things, and

I wasn't gonna let it happen because

670

:

it was gonna let them decide where

a child left that lived without my

671

:

client, who had raised a child for

two and a half years exclusively.

672

:

And which ultimately I ended up losing.

673

:

The kid was ripped away from my

client, but I went to court, I

674

:

think I had 2,500 bucks in cash.

675

:

I expected that if I was held in contempt,

then I could say, okay, what's the purge?

676

:

And they would tell me, and I would

just gladly take the stack out, hand

677

:

it to 'em and say, best money I've

ever spent, sit back down and continue

678

:

being, uh, you know, like arguing,

you know, the correct point Yeah.

679

:

Professionally, but that.

680

:

I was gonna be held in contempt and I had

more cash so I could be held in contempt

681

:

again and just immediately go back.

682

:

But I was so sure that I just had a fat

stack of cash in my, in my, uh, jacket.

683

:

And unfortunately with the way it

happened, as I showed up and they

684

:

said, well, you, uh, because your

intervention hasn't been granted, you

685

:

don't represent a party in here and this

hearing's gonna go forward without you.

686

:

It's public.

687

:

You know, you've, you've

already been involved in this.

688

:

You can sit in the back, but you're not

allowed to speak or ask any questions.

689

:

And my client and I just had to sit

there and watch them have a whole trial

690

:

where the other side put on testimony.

691

:

And no, the GAL didn't cross.

692

:

Nobody asked any questions.

693

:

It was just this perfunctory.

694

:

And you went on appeal.

695

:

Oh yeah.

696

:

One on appeal, but, uh, well on that

one, we are still in the middle.

697

:

We recently won an appeal on

an issue of the intervention.

698

:

So it is now back down to that judge

again, but the whole thing isn't won yet.

699

:

We're getting to go.

700

:

Back many years later

and try the same thing.

701

:

But at that point, my client still hasn't,

now, hasn't seen the child in many years.

702

:

I mean, I don't know that the child

really has a lot of memories over.

703

:

I mean, it's, I mean,

it's really devastating.

704

:

Really, really devastating.

705

:

But I, I was just like, you know what

I, I told my wife what was going on.

706

:

Mm-hmm.

707

:

So she was ready.

708

:

We, she had, um, talked to one of

my, either one of my partners, one

709

:

of my colleagues to be ready if

they needed to help get me out.

710

:

And it was just like one of

those things, it's like, you're

711

:

not talking me out of it.

712

:

I'm not going to let this happen.

713

:

If there's any way that I can stop it.

714

:

By the rules professionally.

715

:

Yeah.

716

:

If it means I get held

in contempt, so be it.

717

:

I'm gonna carry some cash

so I can try to get out.

718

:

Christine: I had a family member when

we went down to court, was like, they're

719

:

gonna put you in jail one of these days.

720

:

And I don't think they will.

721

:

That would be insane for me

walking through a courthouse.

722

:

But they were like, I got bail money,

you know, and obviously I would never do

723

:

anything in inappropriate in a courtroom.

724

:

I would never try to cause a scene.

725

:

I, I've

726

:

Hugh: seen it happen because judges

arguing points on evidence and the

727

:

attorney's correct and the judge

is wrong, and they've, they've

728

:

just, the judges ruled and the

attorneys, you know, once the rulings

729

:

there, you don't argue anymore.

730

:

But when it's so blatant, sometimes

you're just being an advocate

731

:

and you continue to argue.

732

:

So they're continuing to argue

correctly and they get locked up for it.

733

:

Christine: The best I've ever seen.

734

:

This is on video and this is a great way

to sort of end, um, is I saw, I watched

735

:

a video recording, it was just audio at

the time, but the attorney said, the, the

736

:

judge kept saying, no, no, no, I've ruled.

737

:

I've ruled.

738

:

And the attorney said, with all due

respect, your Honor, at this point

739

:

I'm speaking to the court of appeals.

740

:

Oh yeah.

741

:

And then da da da.

742

:

And I was like, that is

a great way to say it.

743

:

'cause you preservation is such that

it has to be a part of the record.

744

:

And yeah, we've got to figure out a

way, and I know we've talked about all

745

:

the different kind of segments, but,

um, I've got so many dms, but we've got

746

:

to find a way to just kind of give our

legal observation and to sort of assist

747

:

some people, not with legal advice

obviously, but just, hey, this is the

748

:

steps that will, you know, guarantee, uh,

an outcome that may be helpful to you.

749

:

You know?

750

:

Hugh: Yeah.

751

:

I mean, it's, it's not, not even

guaranteeing any kind of an outcome,

752

:

but this, it doesn't foreclose.

753

:

Yes.

754

:

Future avenues for you to

actually get justice or to get

755

:

your case ruled on correctly.

756

:

And, and, and, and what, what she's

referring to is there are certain

757

:

types of issues that cannot be appealed

if you don't preserve your objection

758

:

on the record during the proceeding.

759

:

Mm-hmm.

760

:

And there are great many things

in the law that people that don't

761

:

have attorneys don't understand.

762

:

Yeah.

763

:

But I find that many attorneys

don't understand that.

764

:

And the way that the judges rule

and the way that they will sometimes

765

:

rule in a way that's like, okay, I'm

ruling you're gonna be quiet now they

766

:

dissuade people from making the correct

objection and continuing to object.

767

:

So there's also you can object once

the judge makes clear they're not,

768

:

they don't believe that there's

anything objectionable about it.

769

:

And then more and more stuff comes out

under that same vein and you don't object

770

:

anymore 'cause you've been shot down in

a way that makes you think you're gonna

771

:

get in trouble if you say anything else.

772

:

But then you can't appeal

'cause that's a waiver.

773

:

Yout object to those things

in, there's a waiver.

774

:

The attorneys that learn, you know,

you get burned once and then you

775

:

start doing judge, you know, uh, can

we recognize that I have a standing

776

:

objection on hearsay to everything

related to this document so I don't have

777

:

to interrupt the testimony and Sure.

778

:

Counsel, I will note

the standing objection.

779

:

You're not waiving that objection, but

we can sort of go through this testimony.

780

:

'cause I've already ruled.

781

:

I, I appreciate that because it, you don't

have to sit there and argue the objection

782

:

and get matter and matter and matter.

783

:

And I, I don't have a judge that's

so frustrated with me that by the

784

:

time I'm presenting my client's case,

yeah, they're already done with me.

785

:

And it, it's, I think,

better for my client.

786

:

But you just wouldn't know to do that.

787

:

And most attorneys early in their

career wouldn't, wouldn't dare

788

:

when asked out of a judge who

already seems frustrated with him.

789

:

Mm-hmm.

790

:

And they will just.

791

:

I mean, the ruling could be completely

wrong on every single way, and you could

792

:

preclude yourself from being able to

appeal it or do anything about it later.

793

:

Christine: Absolutely.

794

:

And remember, judge e, judge y.com.

795

:

Please go tell us your

stories, judge y.com.

796

:

We've gotten so many responses.

797

:

It's not, we haven't

gotten back to people yet.

798

:

Right now, where you're just

in the collecting phase.

799

:

We are working on building the

website, building the app, but

800

:

we wanna hear your stories.

801

:

We appreciate it so much.

802

:

You can turn that

confidentiality button on.

803

:

Also, if you're an attorney, you can

say that you're attorney judge y.com.

804

:

Hugh: Yep.

805

:

We will protect everyone's identity.

806

:

We are not in the business of no

snitching, and we don't need it.

807

:

We honestly don't need, uh, we don't need

the identity sign on under a fake name.

808

:

We, we, we ask that there's a way that

we can communicate with you, but we do

809

:

not have any desire to out any sources

of information, and we certainly don't

810

:

have any plans to post anything that

we have not verified and looked into.

811

:

Judge is going to, yeah.

812

:

Investigate these things.

813

:

Uh, the stories that people tell us

are just leading us in the direction

814

:

to look to see what's there.

815

:

Yep.

816

:

And judgy

817

:

Christine: starting in Louisville,

but we wanna know where judgy

818

:

is needed most elsewhere.

819

:

Hugh: Yep.

820

:

Absolutely.

821

:

Christine: Thank y'all.

822

:

Have a great day.

823

:

Next time we discuss who writes the

orders, judges or staff attorneys.

824

:

Also, we make a new bet this

time involving martinis./

825

:

Next call.

826

:

We need some justice, justice, justice.

827

:

And I wanna ring bells in public.

828

:

I wanna ring bes in public nor crowd.

829

:

Yeah, but I To the fo Yeah.

830

:

I To the fo Yeah.

831

:

I to the fo fo teaser.

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About the Podcast

The JudgeMental Podcast
From the Creators of Judge-y
The JudgeMental Podcast features two attorneys, Hugh and Christine, who bring over three decades of combined litigation experience to the mic. Now venturing into a bold new initiative—"Judge-y", a website and soon-to-be app—they aim to give lawyers and litigants a platform to evaluate judges and promote accountability within the judiciary.

About your host

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Hugh Barrow