Episode 3

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Published on:

23rd Jul 2025

EP 03 - S-Y-B-A-U

In this episode, attorneys Hugh and Christine discuss the community feedback from the bet.  

The hosts take a critical look at delays and the length of time it takes for courts to enter orders.  These have real life consequences for the constituents that the judges' were elected to represent.  

Christine poses questions about a local family court judge that has a personal podcast, yet takes months to issue an order.  

The episode concludes with a discussion of practicing in city courts vs the county court in Kentucky.  

Transcript
Christine:

Shut your bitch ass up.

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S-Y-B-A-U.

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Never seen it before.

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I

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neither.

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I like it.

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I do too.

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/ You are listening to

The Judgemental Podcast.

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We're Hugh and Christine, the Minds

Behind Judgy, the revolutionary app

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that empowers you to judge the judges.

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It's pastime for judicial accountability

and transparency within the courts.

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Prepare for sharp insights, candid

critiques, and unshakable honesty from

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two lawyers determined to save the system.

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We need some justice.

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Justice, my fine justice.

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And I wanna ring, be in public.

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I wanna ring, be in public crowd.

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Yeah.

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Christine: All right, let's start by

talking about our reporting on Tuesday.

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Have you seen the feedback online?

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Hugh: I have.

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Um, and it's funny, the

different platforms have

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completely different feedback.

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I noticed on like one of the platforms,

everything is positive and everyone's

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talking about, you know, good on

you for exposing this and like, you

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know, all this supportive stuff.

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And then you'll go to the

next platform and it will be.

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A little bit more antagonistic.

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Christine: Yeah.

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I think TikTok for sure, I can tell that

some of the judges, I would believe have

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told their friends to go and post, like,

my besties a judge, they work hard.

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Um, which thank y'all so much for that

because that boost us up in the algorithm.

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Yeah.

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So get us out to as

many people as possible.

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We love the love, we love the

hate, we love the questions.

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We love it all because

the goal of judgy too.

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And I do think we should talk

about this because I have my own

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perspectives on judges, some judges

that I may think do a good job.

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You may adamantly disagree with me.

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Yes.

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But judgy is not you.

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It is not me.

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Judgy.

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We kind of created, from my perspective,

we're gonna just judge is gonna

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allow people to judge the judges.

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Um, we want the good, we want

the bad, we want the ugly.

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We just want accountability.

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So,

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Hugh: you

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Christine: know, what

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Hugh: are

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Christine: your

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Hugh: thoughts on that?

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I think it's really important and

it's gonna be harder to get the

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good because it's not sensational.

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It's not the kind of thing

that's gonna be viral and.

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It's sort of the world we live

in, but it's really important

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that we have the good on there.

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Mm-hmm.

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We have people reach out and talk about

stories, and we have actually had people

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you know, I've seen messages about Yeah.

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You know, that are supportive and we want

to, we want to have those stories too.

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The vast majority of people that

reach out to us are with sort of

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horror stories and, you know, related

to what we reported on Tuesday.

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I, you know, from my, my perspective,

I know that there were some judges

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there that weren't running, you

know, that, that weren't sitting in

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court and having hearings that day.

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There were probably some that were

in the building, and that's fine.

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And I get that just because your

docket isn't open doesn't mean

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you're not necessarily working.

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Right.

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But I also know that was important to

me to show what I experienced fairly

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recently as a practitioner, when

I would go over and I would have.

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Orders that needed to be signed,

I would have simple orders that

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would take 20 seconds for someone

to sign that would let me get into a

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case so I could avert an emergency.

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Right.

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Things like that, that I just couldn't

find anyone and be constantly being

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told by staff when I try to, uh, that

there's a way you can reach the judge's

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chambers at the end of the hall by, you

know, buzzing back and the staff member

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will tell you, you know, uh, the judge

is out or the judge is on the bench,

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you know, but if you wait around 15

minutes, she'll be off and you know, I'll

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bring you back and you can, you know,

she'll sign that order for you to have

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access to a case or something like that.

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Yeah.

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Hugh: That it just, there were certain

times of day, usually in the afternoon

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or certain times of the week, usually on

Friday, that I would just regularly be

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told that, oh, the judge just isn't here.

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And I just wouldn't go.

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Even when my office was a couple

blocks from the courthouse, I

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wouldn't go after three o'clock

ever to go try to find a judge.

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And so.

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I think that's one of the reasons why we

didn't go over there at three o'clock.

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I mean, when, when we said, let's, let's

talk about going over just at random

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times and seeing, seeing who's there

and what's going on in the courthouse.

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We said we'd never go over after

three, certainly never after four,

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because we, we know that, I mean,

it's just hardly anybody's ever there.

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Now I have

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Christine: the full expectation

at three o'clock there should

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be judges in the building.

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Hugh: Oh, I have the full expectation.

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And I think people would

be interested to see that.

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Yeah.

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I just, it was more interesting to

me to go after lunch and 30 minutes

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after lunch so people, you know,

you're not just seeing if someone got

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back, you know, 10, 15 minutes late

for lunch or something like that.

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I mean, if you have a hearing, your

first hearing after lunch gets canceled

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or something, and you will just

take a little bit longer at lunch.

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Everybody's gonna do that.

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I mean, that's, everybody's

gonna do that at a job.

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I'm sorry.

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I mean, people, that's just, I would, I

mean, 10, 5, 10 minutes, but we, yeah.

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30 minutes in.

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Mm-hmm.

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The day has started back.

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And so my, my issue with it is I don't

have a, I guess I wasn't coming at

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that from any particular perspective

other than it really shocked me and I

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thought people would be shocked by it.

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Yeah.

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And when the next part that we talk about

when we start reporting on how far out

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hearings are in divisions, that's gonna

be really interesting because, okay, let's

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just assume judges are in the courthouse.

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Every single one that wasn't on the bench,

that, that at least, you know, there

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was one judge in family court that had,

uh, that they were off that day, right?

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That there wasn't a docket that day.

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That's fine.

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Every, everybody does that.

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Everybody takes time off.

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And, and maybe it was just set aside

to write orders or whatever, but of all

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those judges who had things on their

calendar and weren't in the courtroom.

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Why couldn't there be a hearing?

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And I know, so we were there on a

Tuesday, on the previous Monday, there

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were hundreds of attorneys that were

getting hearing dates from the court

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and they were going in the back.

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And they have an issue that, you

know, a lot of them can wait.

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A lot of family court issues,

surprise, surprise, deal with

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important urgent things related

to kids medical care, education.

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I mean, there, there are a lot

of motions that we're on about

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school selection for the next year.

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And you might think, okay, there's

still a month and a half left.

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That's not enough time.

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It's not even worth bringing

the motion now over there

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because it will take so long.

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And those attorneys, some of them were

being told that there wouldn't be even

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a short hearing time in court until

the end of the year or early next year.

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Yeah.

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And so that's why that, that was my

issue, is like, okay, if that's the case.

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It's not because you have so many

things scheduled on the docket

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because nobody is over there.

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Christine: Well, and it's also like,

I mean, you look at district court six

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of the 16, which, you know, I guess in

hindsight, if I think about it, and I

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thought about this last night, juvenile

court should have been, could have been

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going on and it could have been closed

and we didn't see an open courtroom.

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So that's entirely possible.

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We need to check for that next time.

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Um, and if we made a mistake and there

were seven of the 16, I'll still have

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won the bet and have that would be 12.

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I still would've been owed the

beer, but I will apologize.

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But district court, they're not doing a

whole heck of a lot of written orders.

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Okay.

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There's a lot of, in the dockets stuff

being argued, you know, preliminary

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hearings, it's just a matter of

finding probable cause, ending it

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up to circuit court traffic tickets.

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They're just disposing of stuff.

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Um, and so the fact that there were six

in the afternoon and I believe online

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now they have six in the morning,

six in the afternoon, you know.

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There's a significant backlog in district

court, from my understanding, significant.

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And now we don't have enough data on

that because they don't collect it for

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what I consider to be obvious reasons.

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But, um, that being said, what, what are

they've set up a system that effectively

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allows them to work part-time on $141,000.

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That's a problem.

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That's a big problem.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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I mean, if that's, if

that's what's happening,

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Christine: if Yeah.

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Hugh: That that, that

should bother people.

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It certainly bothers me.

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I have, I've practiced in district

court, but it's been many years.

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And nothing that I had was

the kind of thing that would

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just get delayed in court.

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They were smaller things that you could

put on the docket, you know, being a

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private attorney, you could put it on for

the next day usually, or two days later.

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Every now and then, you'd have

something in probate court that you

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would schedule, you know, further out.

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But it's usually because there's

a waiting period before you can

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have a final hearing or something.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And, and so I, I just didn't encounter it.

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I did encounter on every single case that

I practiced in family court for 20 years,

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but especially in the last five or six.

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Right.

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Like, and there is a great

variance between the divisions.

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Some divisions can get you in much

faster or have a good system of, if

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there's a cancellation, we will reach

out to people to say, this canceled.

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We, we know you were trying to get in

there, we're going down the list in order.

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And maybe in

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Christine: 10 years I

never had that happen.

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Oh, that could have been the old guard.

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I'm literally, and if

I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

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I'll ask my old paralegals,

but I never had that happen.

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Hugh: You know, you have to ask for it.

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I don't think it's something that, you

know, that people know about, but I, there

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are, I would always ask, so if I had a

client that was gonna be prejudiced badly

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by the delay in a hearing, and if you, uh,

in a family court action are representing

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the financially disadvantaged person in

the situation, let's say somebody just

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emptied the bank accounts, took possession

of all the money at the very beginning

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and ran off, and, and your client is

left without access to any funds and

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sitting in a house that where stuff has

to be paid for, maybe has the kids with

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them, you need access to the courts.

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And so I would always ask, okay, I

understand we can't get a hearing date

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before this date, can we, if you have a

cancellation, would you reach out to me?

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And some of the divisions

would absolutely do it.

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And.

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It wouldn't happen most of the

time because there might not be

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a cancellation that, um, and, and

sometimes if there was both attorneys,

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you know, had to be also be available.

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So,

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yeah.

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Hugh: You know, it's, it's also hard

to match schedules with attorneys.

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I mean, uh, to have a court have

a hearing date and both attorneys

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be available and your witnesses be

available, that is, that is difficult.

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But more and more I just found

that I would just have to tell

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the client it's probably gonna be

three to six months before we can

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get into court to resolve this.

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Well, we don't need much time

give us like 15, 20 minutes.

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Right.

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We can go in there and

it is just really simple.

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That's just not how it works.

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There is, the shortest hearing

that we're gonna get is 30 minutes.

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The next 30 minutes hearing in,

you know, two weeks ago when I was

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in motion hour was six months out.

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That's insane.

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Insane.

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I can't only imagine that we're

gonna get anything sooner than that.

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And some of the divisions,

like I said, it would be.

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It might be a month and a

half, it might be two months.

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And if you were scheduling it I always

found if you were scheduling it at a

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case management conference, which is

midweek not in the cattle call docket

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of a motion hour where you're competing

against everybody else for days.

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And so, well, a case

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Christine: management conference though,

I would say for listeners is what I would

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consider kind of like a pretrial it,

if you're, if you think of criminals.

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Yeah.

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It's just like

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Hugh: when I first started

practicing, they were called

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pretrials, even the family court.

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So yeah, I, I think they may have had

a midweek, you know, something cancel

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and at the, and I would regularly

get those at case management comes.

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We had somebody, something cancel.

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Uh, would this work week work for you?

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You might get in, you know, in the

next 3, 4, 6 weeks or three months.

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But by and large, if you are scheduling

a hearing, let alone a trial.

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I mean, a trial takes, if you need a

full day trial or even a half day trial,

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you're looking at many months out and

it just, you just have to sit and wait.

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Christine: Yeah.

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We just had, I just know when I follow

up on the docket, like I'll look at

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somebody's docket and then I'll go

back and see if a settlement happened.

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And I know Division seven had a full

day trial, but that was canceled.

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And I don't believe any

hearings were conducted.

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But I do think, like, let's, for

example, you know, let's let the

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TikTok judge have a break for today.

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But we have one judge that has

done, I believe, like a hundred

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podcast, a family court judge.

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Um, and we're sitting

here doing a podcast.

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How time consuming is this?

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Hugh: Oh, nothing at all.

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Just a few hours during the work week

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Christine: and then the editing.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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I mean, I don't know.

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I'll let you know how long, once I

find it, finish editing our first one.

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So it's, it's, it's time consuming.

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Beyond and your courtroom

is sitting empty.

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Christine: Yeah.

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It's time consuming.

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And then also, like, it's just obviously

right now, you and I, but this is Durwin

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Webb, um, and he had the perspective,

a matter of perspective with Judge

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Durwin Webb, which if you notice there

was a name change there, which I'm

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just, you know, being very speculative.

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But I think there probably was a complaint

for using the judge name on a podcast.

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Hugh: Oh.

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But I, I was, I didn't, I didn't

know anything about any of that.

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Yeah.

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You didn't know he had a podcast?

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I did not.

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Christine: Oh my gosh.

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Okay.

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It's like literally the most

boring thing you've ever seen in

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your life, but tons of episodes.

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And it is actually shot at Frazier Museum.

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Hugh: Oh, that's nice.

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It is

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Christine: gorgeous background,

and you can tell the editing

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has done very, very well.

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Which I also think is kind

of begs the question of,

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Hugh: that's a lot more time

consuming to do something on

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location and deal with Yeah.

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Christine: And also what's that cost?

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Well,

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Hugh: I mean that's,

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Christine: to rent the Fraser

Museum, I mean, maybe, but maybe, I

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Hugh: mean, if it makes money

or you're using your independent

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money, I mean, I don't.

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Christine: Well, I looked it up.

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I couldn't find an LLC and I actually

called Frazier Museum when I was

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interested in starting the podcast and

was like, Hey, I wanna start a podcast.

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You guys have this an option.

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And they were like, what

are you talking about?

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Um, which also kind of begs the

question to me, are these any

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of these judges getting favors

using their ju judge status?

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You know what I mean?

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Like, Hey, I'm a judge.

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Can I get access to this?

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And I, I, I have, I'm

just asking questions.

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I'm not saying anything for sure.

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Yeah.

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Hugh: But also, I mean,

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saying, hi, I'm judged so

and so, do you have space?

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Like if somebody says, oh, it's a

judge, maybe we would let them do that.

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They're not gonna trash the place.

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They're gonna be, you know, better.

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And, and the ordinary reasons

for us not renting the place

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out maybe would be different.

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I don't know.

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I'm

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Christine: gonna have to

consult the federal statue on

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public corruption on that one.

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I don't know.

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That makes me nervous.

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I certainly wouldn't

advise that a judge do it.

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And of course, I'm not making

any sort of allegation.

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I agree.

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I'm just saying what I've seen.

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Hugh: I agree.

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No, I, I agree with that.

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I'm just, yeah, I mean, I

would imagine that it's a title

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that opens doors, whether you.

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Actively seek it or not.

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Yeah.

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Christine: Well, and people

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Hugh: know who you are.

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Christine: That division is one.

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And, and to give the benefit to

Derwin Webb, that is a division

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that I can say with pretty much

a hundred percent certainty.

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You, there is demeanor from the bench.

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You are not gonna be chastised, you are

not gonna be spoken to in a way that is

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just like soul crushing, whether litigant,

pro se attorney, there is definitely a

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decorum from the bench in that court.

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It,

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Hugh: yeah.

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And it's, I mean, I would say more so

than most any place I've ever practiced.

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In fact, I've had some cases Yeah.

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That were just crazy and you left

exhausted and they were fun to practice.

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Mm-hmm.

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But you just, what is gonna happen today?

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I have no idea what's gonna happen in

that courtroom, but the one thing you did

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know was you just never expect anything

out of the ordinary from the bench.

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And you knew that everything would be

the decorum would be maintained by all

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parties, a hundred, all the parties.

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You would make sure

everybody acted correctly.

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He would do it.

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In a very authoritative way by,

but still very professional.

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A hundred percent.

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And, uh, yeah, it was always just a

pleasure to try cases in that courtroom.

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Now, now

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Christine: pleasure is a, like a, a

different word for me just because of the

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rules of evidence and things like that.

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Yeah.

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But knowing your client wasn't gonna

sob and like on the way out was

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definitely something you could guarantee.

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Hugh: Oh yeah.

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No, no.

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That I am, the client experience intent

was that, you know, I may not win.

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The judge listened.

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Mm-hmm.

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You could tell he paid attention.

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He wasn't looking at his

computer screen or his phone.

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And if, well, in my experience and

if an objection was made or you were

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arguing some finer point of law, I loved

the fact that he was curious enough to

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wanna know more about it, ask, you know,

and ask you to explain and to tell you

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where you got that from and hear it out.

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And then if it was complex enough

and he wanted to go read about it

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before he ruled on it, he would.

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He would take that under that issue

under submission and move on to

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the next thing so we could properly

take the time to look at it instead

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of a knee jerk reaction about it.

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There was actually a curiosity there.

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Yeah.

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To get it right.

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I.

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Christine: And so yeah, now we said all

the positive things, but now talking about

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the, the podcast, I will say, and I'll say

this pretty confidently, and especially

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from the people that I've talked to that

are pro se as well, his division takes

395

:

the longest to get an order in Louisville.

396

:

I mean, you're talking in Louisville?

397

:

Yeah, in Louisville for sure.

398

:

Um, I mean, it's not

399

:

Hugh: even close to, to the

longest if you're looking the

400

:

Louisville region, but Yeah.

401

:

But in Jefferson County, yeah.

402

:

Christine: And so he takes the

absolute longest to write orders.

403

:

You know, I have people that have

reached out to me that I've verified,

404

:

you know, that you're talking about if

you're being denied access to your child,

405

:

and even if you win and get access to

your child, but if you're waiting six

406

:

months, nine months, 12 months, yeah.

407

:

To get that, you know, that is,

there's no way, shape, or form.

408

:

I don't care what, there's no way that

that outcome is in the best interest

409

:

of a child, which is supposed to be the

goal and the standard for family court.

410

:

Hugh: Yeah, no, that, that

was, it was very frustrating.

411

:

We had.

412

:

I've had cases that had

safety issues mm-hmm.

413

:

That had big decisions.

414

:

Yep.

415

:

After, after hearings that, and I'll

be honest, there were, there were

416

:

hearings that had some safety issues.

417

:

I, I had a case that got transferred

out of his division just because

418

:

of the amount of work it would be.

419

:

I think he got another huge case

that would be very time consuming and

420

:

they reallocated hours just so that

one judge didn't end up with cases.

421

:

We, we were, we, our case management

conference were a day, day and

422

:

a half each, and we would have

them often, so we probably needed

423

:

14, 15 days of trial in the case.

424

:

And he got us in within two weeks for the

emergency hearing and heard everything.

425

:

And it was like he was

taking it very seriously.

426

:

And I, I felt very good about that.

427

:

But then the order didn't come for a

long time and there was this sort of

428

:

status quo that was going on with both

parents having access to the child.

429

:

That was, at least from our

perspective, our client's perspective.

430

:

Dangerous.

431

:

Yeah.

432

:

And by the time.

433

:

The order came out and it was really

only after it got transferred and

434

:

the, and the new judge reached out

to Judge Webb to say, we're, you

435

:

know, we can't move forward with

certain things until you rule on this.

436

:

By the time it came out, the status

quo had been going on long enough that

437

:

the friend of the court, or I guess

the guardian ad lit him on the case.

438

:

Had just sort of said, well,

it can't be that dangerous.

439

:

But who knows would've happened

during that time if all of the things

440

:

that we proved at that hearing.

441

:

Yeah.

442

:

Were, you know, had actually had

actually, you know, our worst, the

443

:

worst case scenarios had come to

light just because we were waiting and

444

:

there were no protections in place.

445

:

Christine: And then you have time, um,

to go record a port, uh, podcast and

446

:

you have a time to go visit and take

pictures at school with children, you

447

:

know, and, and on a regular basis.

448

:

And I do, I taught at a Title one school.

449

:

Loved it.

450

:

Love the kids.

451

:

If you wanna have hope for this

country, you need to go do that.

452

:

Um, hardest job I ever had.

453

:

But that being, and it's great for judges

to go meet, but when I was in Asia,

454

:

and I know you've been to Asia several

years ago, I, I distinctly remember.

455

:

In Cambodia, and this was probably a

year, year and a half ago, seeing all

456

:

of the pictures on each street corner

of like the politicians, the kings,

457

:

all of that surrounded by children.

458

:

And it really struck me because I

thought about a lot of the propaganda,

459

:

or I'll use the word propaganda that

our judges do, where they're taking

460

:

pictures at elementary schools and

middle schools and in the middle of

461

:

the day, which is also their workday.

462

:

And just the notion that, that is

so disarming to the general public,

463

:

oh, hey, they care about kids.

464

:

And I'm not saying that they don't,

465

:

Hugh: I was about to say, I, it would

be hard to, hard to want to be in

466

:

that position, in that job without

caring, not caring about kids.

467

:

I would think,

468

:

Christine: well, what's, I

mean, what's more important?

469

:

You know, you got a kid that's serious,

in serious, you know, risk and you can't

470

:

issue an order to protect that child.

471

:

But you can go have a photo

op at a Title one school.

472

:

Well,

473

:

Hugh: I, I'm not saying

that that's incorrect.

474

:

What I, what I, what I

think though is that.

475

:

The, the court process, it, it

just becomes like a machine.

476

:

And the cases are like pieces of a

machine and they're less actual real kids.

477

:

I mean, I, and that's

speculation, but it has to happen.

478

:

I, right.

479

:

If you're, if you're sitting up there

and there are tens of thousands of new

480

:

cases coming in, those individual facts,

scenarios and cases stop looking like

481

:

individual fact scenarios and cases.

482

:

And if you're sitting in one hearing

and you know, you got five more

483

:

directly after you're sort of mentally

about halfway through one, you're

484

:

mentally preparing for the other.

485

:

And I think that's just natural.

486

:

I think it's a, a problem with, with the

system and, and I will always say that

487

:

family court is a court of last resort.

488

:

It is the last place you should be

actually making decisions for your family.

489

:

And it should only be for emergencies

and people who just cannot be reasonable

490

:

with each other to get things done,

491

:

Christine: or victims of people

that can't be reasonable.

492

:

But yeah, I know exactly.

493

:

Oh, victims.

494

:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

495

:

No,

496

:

Hugh: you're right there.

497

:

There are.

498

:

There are a lot of dockets that

I did not practice very often

499

:

that I tend to sometimes forget

about, but there are, yes.

500

:

The, I, I consider those emergencies.

501

:

Yeah.

502

:

Yeah.

503

:

Like if someone's in danger, whether

it be kids, adults, anybody that's

504

:

being victimized or in danger, there

are provisions within our statutes that

505

:

require those cases to be in front of a

judge within a very specific timeframe.

506

:

And that's,

507

:

Christine: well, there's a new movement

and I think this is a great way to like

508

:

segue on and we'll come back to division

10, maybe at, maybe at a later date,

509

:

but there's a huge movement and we call

'em high conflict cases but within the

510

:

family court reform, you know, and I've

been dabbling in that for like a year

511

:

now, the notion that it's two people

that can't co-parent when in reality

512

:

it's one person that can't co-parent.

513

:

Sure.

514

:

Hugh: No, I agree with that.

515

:

Christine: And I think, I agree.

516

:

There is a fundamental, we have this

saying and it's terrible and oh my

517

:

gosh, don't, don't get mad at me.

518

:

But when I first started practicing, I

heard it and it was like, green bugs.

519

:

You know what I'm talking about?

520

:

You remember that?

521

:

I have

522

:

Hugh: heard this, but I don't remember.

523

:

Christine: It's like green bugs.

524

:

Like attract green bugs.

525

:

Green bugs, like green bugs.

526

:

Oh yeah.

527

:

And it was like, if you've got

a crazy person on one side, the

528

:

other person might be crazy.

529

:

Um, or you've got a difficult

person on one side, the other

530

:

person might be difficult.

531

:

And I do think after practicing and

then being out of it, oftentimes when

532

:

you're going to, like, I, I know you told

your, I mean, I told my clients, you do

533

:

not want this person making a decision

about what color you do your hair, let

534

:

alone your kids for crying out loud.

535

:

Hugh: Um, especially given, okay,

imagine we have a half day trial.

536

:

Well, each side gets half of that.

537

:

The attorney's gonna be

speaking 80% of the time.

538

:

You are gonna be giving

some of the answers.

539

:

But I gotta get some testimony from other

people and then we've got some documents.

540

:

That is the only thing the judge

is ever gonna know about your life.

541

:

Right.

542

:

And you're asking him or her to make.

543

:

Que uh, decisions on the most important

aspects of your life, your children's

544

:

life, your fu, your financial future,

all of that's gonna be decided based

545

:

on that small amount of evidence.

546

:

And that's if you're in a county

like Jefferson County where you have

547

:

10 divisions and they can devote a

half day trial to things, or like

548

:

in my case, a multi-day trial.

549

:

You know, you, you're gonna, I fully

expect I'm gonna be waiting a long

550

:

time for a long, multi-day trial.

551

:

We're taking up an entire division

for, for a period of time.

552

:

I get that.

553

:

But in a lot of counties, you're gonna

do your full trial in two hours or less.

554

:

Oh yeah.

555

:

Hugh: And you're dealing with custody,

parenting time, safety of children.

556

:

You're also dealing with retirement

accounts, maintenance, child support,

557

:

all the financial stuff, who keeps

what bank accounts, whether you're

558

:

gonna have to sell your house.

559

:

All of that is being taken care of in

a two hour period with the attorneys.

560

:

We love to talk and, and then the parties

that really matter just get to answer

561

:

questions and have to be reminded, oh,

you're only here to answer that question.

562

:

Don't talk about anything

else, just yes or no to this.

563

:

And give us the short, the

short version of everything.

564

:

'cause we're in a time crunch and your

whole life's gonna be decided on that.

565

:

Christine: Totally.

566

:

I mean, dude, this is crazy.

567

:

But you know, I tried a whole sa case

circuit court jury trial in one day.

568

:

I mean, voir dire trial, sentencing.

569

:

Oh, all of it.

570

:

When in the counties, when

I was a public defender.

571

:

Um, that

572

:

Hugh: happened.

573

:

I mean, where I, I mean some of

the towns, uh, where I grew up or

574

:

where I lived when I was younger.

575

:

Yeah.

576

:

The smaller towns in the South,

that's, that was just how it was done.

577

:

Christine: Yeah.

578

:

I remember like the first time I

got a hearing date for something in,

579

:

you know, or one of the first times

when I first came into family law in

580

:

Louisville and I was like, two hours,

we don't need two hours for this.

581

:

I can do this in 15 minutes.

582

:

You know what I mean?

583

:

Like, and the other side

it was, uh, d Craig Osco.

584

:

Did you ever case with her?

585

:

Oh yeah.

586

:

Yeah, I will, oh my word.

587

:

She put her finger in my face

one time, um, during mediation.

588

:

It was so bizarre.

589

:

And I remember being

like, uh, I didn't know.

590

:

I almost wanted to giggle.

591

:

And obviously I respect my, you know,

elders, but it was so shocking to me.

592

:

'cause you, you have a yeah, sa pretrial

about, with a prosecutor where like

593

:

something real bad has happened.

594

:

Like, and there was, you know, you didn't

get spoken to like that from a prosecutor.

595

:

We're doing our job.

596

:

And this was, Dee was so mad about,

I, it was something like so arbitrary.

597

:

I remember being like, well,

uh, you know what I mean?

598

:

I ain't in Kansas anymore.

599

:

Hugh: Was there client there?

600

:

Yeah.

601

:

Christine: Okay.

602

:

No, no, he not in front of the client.

603

:

'cause if it had been done in

front of my client, I don't know.

604

:

Like I do remember being like

just looking at the wall.

605

:

'cause I did, you know, I

can be reactionary and you.

606

:

Don't, like, that's an aggressive

stance to take with somebody.

607

:

It is.

608

:

And I just remember being like, I, I don't

actually know what to do other than like,

609

:

and I told you this story off the record,

like, I won't, not about this one, but

610

:

another judge that one time was like,

I remember I was up there and you just

611

:

were like, you backed up to the podium

and I was worried that I'd offended you.

612

:

And I was like, honestly, you were just

screaming and embarrassed yourself.

613

:

Like, and I didn't know what to do

other than to just be like, oh, another

614

:

Hugh: attorney you mean?

615

:

No, this

616

:

Christine: was a judge.

617

:

Oh, this was one of the judges

that, um, a female judge.

618

:

But I just remember, I digress.

619

:

But being so, it's so shocking to me

when people lose their control like that

620

:

about something so minimal that it, it's,

it makes me feel embarrassed for them.

621

:

There's some people

622

:

Hugh: that practice that way, and I'm,

I'm not saying Dee was one of them

623

:

because I, I got to know her pretty well.

624

:

One of the things that surprised

me coming from a non-family law

625

:

background was the showmanship.

626

:

Yeah.

627

:

Yeah.

628

:

Like I, I saw plenty of posturing.

629

:

In politics and lobbying

and that kind of stuff.

630

:

But the showmanship, especially

if a client was in a room, and

631

:

then how the demeanor could change

immediately when it's just the

632

:

attorneys like in the room with a

mediator and everyone's totally cool.

633

:

Yeah.

634

:

And it's a show, and then once you figure

it out, you react differently to things.

635

:

Mm-hmm.

636

:

Then there are the people that only

practice by getting angry and they

637

:

figure that a certain percentage of the

time they're gonna win just by being

638

:

the loudest person in the room and they

don't have to prepare all that much.

639

:

And then there are those, and I always

found, uh, my, my former business partner

640

:

was phenomenal at never getting riled

up and would make people melt down by

641

:

just not taking the bait and like smugly

smiling and then just waiting for them to

642

:

finish and then talking about something

totally different and not reacting.

643

:

And it worked so well and I've,

I've never been great at that.

644

:

I'm terrible at it, but I've realized

exactly there are certain types of people

645

:

that that's how you deal with them.

646

:

And boy it works.

647

:

I've had judges tell me after I've just

stayed calm and let people rant and rave

648

:

and then just gone about getting my proof

on and sat down calmly afterwards that

649

:

they just really enjoyed watching that,

that there was, you know, no, yeah, no.

650

:

A good way to handle it.

651

:

I know.

652

:

For being

653

:

Christine: crash out, Christine, no doubt.

654

:

Hugh: Oh, I can be, and yeah,

655

:

Christine: but I've never put my

finger in somebody's face unless

656

:

I was expecting it to escalate.

657

:

That bother me.

658

:

Yeah.

659

:

Yeah.

660

:

And I

661

:

Hugh: found that, uh, I

don't know when that was.

662

:

I, I

663

:

Christine: 2014.

664

:

Hugh: Okay.

665

:

So, yeah, I, I remember practicing

with her as she moved a lot more toward

666

:

mediation, uh, before she retired.

667

:

And it just, you know, people, I

guess they, they mellow and practiced

668

:

differently, but I, I had more

cases then, and I came in expecting.

669

:

Yeah.

670

:

There were some, some older attorneys

also that I'm, I'm thinking of that.

671

:

When you got a case with them.

672

:

Oh boy.

673

:

Yeah.

674

:

You prepare your client and they're

gonna be very aggressive and they'll

675

:

be in your face and they're gonna just,

at this deposition, they'll dig into

676

:

anything and everything to wear you down.

677

:

And then they'll get

to the important stuff.

678

:

And then you, you, you get in

there and they're just laid back

679

:

and you realize that Oh yeah.

680

:

Just people, yeah, people do tend to

mellow and it's just like, oh, this is

681

:

very different than it was like five

years ago when I had to sit through a

682

:

deposition that you were conducting.

683

:

Christine: Well, I think too, I

was like, I came back in:

684

:

She didn't know me.

685

:

I don't think she would've talked

to somebody that was like one

686

:

of the regular practitioners.

687

:

Like I think she just

thought, who is this girl?

688

:

You know what I'm saying?

689

:

Like, I was brand new and I

got that a lot from the bench.

690

:

But I got a funny story about Dee,

she called when I was pr uh, teaching

691

:

and she was so desperate to come to

speak to the kids as far as like for

692

:

a media appearance as far as like for

a woman's group that she was in, just

693

:

about how important it is to vote.

694

:

And I did ask her, I was like,

are you gonna tell the kids that

695

:

they should or shouldn't put

their finger in someone's face?

696

:

When they're an attorney.

697

:

Um, what did

698

:

Hugh: she say?

699

:

Christine: She, I mean she just said,

oh, how are you, you know, the typical

700

:

like da da da and then somebody else

from the organization react came.

701

:

How react.

702

:

Well, and you realize too, like

there's so many people, you know,

703

:

from how I was raised, it's like

you can't, the person that could be

704

:

the low man on the totem pole could

be the smartest person in the room.

705

:

Oftentimes they are the

smartest person in the room.

706

:

Um, and so you gotta be careful

at the battles you pick with

707

:

people that you don't know just

for the sake of picking them.

708

:

Oh, sure.

709

:

You know what I mean?

710

:

Hugh: Oh, I, I agree completely.

711

:

I agree completely.

712

:

Because one of, one of the things about

family law this very different than a jury

713

:

trial is if you're trying to, you have a

style that is, I'm always gonna be angry.

714

:

Yeah, yeah.

715

:

And try to make the impact, or I'm the

one that is always going to be where

716

:

we're gonna somehow be the victim.

717

:

And you know, it's gonna be like every

little thing is an affront to this or

718

:

to that, and make it something bigger.

719

:

That's a style that could work

if you're in front of a jury the

720

:

first time and only one time.

721

:

Right.

722

:

But if you're in front of the same judges

year after year and they see you and

723

:

you do that every single time, it has no

effect whatsoever, other than your client

724

:

might think, oh, that was brilliant.

725

:

It looks great.

726

:

Yeah.

727

:

But the, the, it's almost like you

have a playbook and the judge presiding

728

:

over it, or opposing counsel if

they've tried cases with you before

729

:

they know exactly what's coming.

730

:

Yep.

731

:

Almost word for word.

732

:

Oh, this is gonna happen.

733

:

And, and sometimes you just,

you get it out of the way.

734

:

You plant something just to get them

going off on a tangent because you

735

:

know that they can do it and that

you, you use it to steer the trial.

736

:

I've just never found that,

that kind of practice to be

737

:

Christine: effective, to

738

:

Hugh: be effective long term.

739

:

But boy, I remember people trying

to rattle me when I came in and I

740

:

was young kid coming in there acting

like I knew what I was doing and ugh.

741

:

Oh man.

742

:

And it just, but yeah, I, I

also remember those same people

743

:

that gave me a lot of hell.

744

:

And messed with me when I, when I was

younger, if I came out and I did a

745

:

good job at a hearing, they were, it

was like sort of your rite of passage.

746

:

Yeah.

747

:

Everybody was cool with

you and you were, you know.

748

:

Christine: Well, yeah.

749

:

That was the weird thing for

me though, was I was like,

750

:

y'all, I've already done this.

751

:

I went to Eastern, I went from

Boston to Eastern Kentucky.

752

:

Can you imagine?

753

:

25 years old, like, oh my gosh, I'm

here to like, you know, I mean, just

754

:

arrogant, ego, all the things they

put me in their place, but I was

755

:

just like, I've already paid my dues.

756

:

You know what I mean?

757

:

Like Yeah.

758

:

But if

759

:

Hugh: you haven't paid

your dues there, yeah.

760

:

I mean, it is different.

761

:

You get, oh hell.

762

:

I mean, I, I know you had to have

experienced it years into your career.

763

:

You go out to some other county

and you get you, you know, unless

764

:

you look like an old, an old

withered, uh, grizzled attorney.

765

:

As long as you look somewhat youthful,

people are gonna try to rattle you

766

:

and, and see, see what you're made of.

767

:

Well, I feel you're new commodity.

768

:

Christine: No, I feel

at home in the counties.

769

:

That's how, well, you know, I

was raised like, like, not like

770

:

actual, but like legally raised

by that old school homecooked.

771

:

So I understand the notion

of like, Hey, go introduce

772

:

yourself to the police officer.

773

:

Hey, introduce yourself to the sheriff.

774

:

Yeah.

775

:

Hey, go to the clerk.

776

:

Like, hey.

777

:

And then if they start to say something,

obviously I got an accent too, which

778

:

does help, but I'll just be like,

779

:

Hugh: oh, it's huge.

780

:

Christine: I will say something.

781

:

You know, I'll be like, y'all,

if you're trying to home cook me.

782

:

I used to practice in Eastern

Kentucky and I got a, you know,

783

:

prosecutor's cell phone you can

have, they'll show you how it's done.

784

:

We'll

785

:

Hugh: just go work the room

and talk to the other attorney.

786

:

If the opposing counsel's in the

courtroom, go introduce yourself and.

787

:

Yeah.

788

:

I mean, it makes, it

makes a big difference.

789

:

But I, Jefferson County is a foreign

790

:

Christine: to me, the way it's handled.

791

:

They, Louisville thinks it's the most

important thing to ever live, and we've

792

:

got, it's a nearly $6 billion judicial

budget and it is the most inefficient

793

:

part of the judiciary in the whole,

in the commonwealth of Kentucky.

794

:

In my opinion.

795

:

Hugh: I could point out tons of

problems with decisions being

796

:

made without a hearing that

should be made without a hearing.

797

:

But I, I always found that in Jefferson

County, that happened far less than

798

:

anywhere else in so many places.

799

:

It was just, alright, we're all here.

800

:

Let's just hash it out

right here at motion hour.

801

:

Or, here's what I think should happen.

802

:

Why don't you guys go do this?

803

:

We don't need to have a hearing on this.

804

:

And you're thinking that's

not the way it works.

805

:

Might make a lot of sense

for practical reasons.

806

:

It might save a lot of people, a lot

of money if they can't afford for

807

:

their attorneys to go have a hearing.

808

:

I get why it happens and it happens very

organically in a lot of courtrooms where.

809

:

Clearly the judge is

familiar with both parties.

810

:

They've been in front of

the judge a million times.

811

:

Mm-hmm.

812

:

They brought this other issue,

but it's still a court of law.

813

:

It still requires a hearing with people

sworn in before you can make a decision.

814

:

Totally.

815

:

I just, I saw that far less in

Jefferson County, and in fact I

816

:

became, you know, it was a little bit

817

:

when I, you got so used to it happening

outside of Jefferson County that you

818

:

almost didn't get upset about it when

it happened, but when I would see

819

:

it happen here in Jefferson County,

I would get really upset about it.

820

:

'cause Oh, that doesn't happen here.

821

:

We get hearings, we actually sit down

and, and if I need a two hour hearing, I

822

:

can have a two hour hearing on one issue,

which you can't get most other places.

823

:

Oh,

824

:

Christine: you're gonna be shocked.

825

:

Some of the video I've gotten

recently where judges are, aren't

826

:

swearing people in here in Jefferson.

827

:

Hugh: Oh, I listen, I wouldn't be shocked.

828

:

I remember,

829

:

Christine: sorry, go on.

830

:

I interrupt.

831

:

Oh, no,

832

:

Hugh: I just, I remember

walking out of a hearing.

833

:

My former, law partner walked out of a

hearing on a different floor and we met

834

:

and we were gonna go back to the office.

835

:

And I, I said, how's it going?

836

:

Well, we started without swearing anyone

in and go straight into testimony.

837

:

I was like, Hazel, how about you?

838

:

And I'm like, same exact

thing happened with me.

839

:

Had to stop and go back through everything

because we all realized that we had never

840

:

really start, no, mine was, uh, maybe

didn't go on the record and started the

841

:

hearing without going on the record.

842

:

Never had the record running, had to

start over, and the other, and his

843

:

was, no one got sworn in, so they

had to start over and go through it.

844

:

Christine: Yeah.

845

:

I mean, because what is the

definition of testimony?

846

:

Sworn statement.

847

:

Yeah.

848

:

A statement that is not

sworn is not testimony,

849

:

Hugh: and it's not an affidavit

that can't be cross examined.

850

:

Christine: So it's just, and this,

this kind of, and I mean this is

851

:

so basic that it is, it's shocking

to even have the conversation.

852

:

Um, the level of, I mean, is there

a word other than incompetence?

853

:

Uh, I don't know.

854

:

I

855

:

Hugh: don't know.

856

:

I mean, I, I mean,

857

:

Christine: make a checklist, you

know, swear parties in, check.

858

:

Hugh: Yeah.

859

:

Christine: Turn cameras on.

860

:

Check.

861

:

Hugh: Is it the result of a system

where you just have too many things

862

:

going on and you're processing it

like a fam uh, a factory and it

863

:

just, things fall between the cracks?

864

:

Christine: Okay.

865

:

Well, what happens when a

factory falls between the tracks?

866

:

Or like, what happens?

867

:

Like there's a massive lawsuit

because somebody gets hurt or like,

868

:

Hugh: oh, I, I, I'm not,

I'm not justifying it.

869

:

I'm just trying to think of, you know,

there, there are explanations other,

870

:

I mean, because I've, I see it happen.

871

:

I mean, frankly, I've seen

it happen in the judges.

872

:

I like to practice in front of most

people that I know are intelligent

873

:

people that I have known personally,

that are fascinating, smart people that

874

:

just in any other aspect of their life

aren't doing those kinds of things.

875

:

So it,

876

:

Christine: you know, I mean, we could

make 'em a checklist and send it to 'em.

877

:

I don't think that would be ex parte.

878

:

Hugh: Well, you know, honestly,

I, I've practiced in front

879

:

of judges who had lists.

880

:

Of the, these are the only

objections you can make.

881

:

Here are the rule, there are the

proper objections when you make an

882

:

objection, state what your objection is.

883

:

And it was so clear that when

you did it, they weren't familiar

884

:

with any of those objections and

didn't understand how they worked.

885

:

Even though they had them put, you

know, right there and, and, and

886

:

taped onto the, uh, litigation table.

887

:

So I don't know that that

would, that would help.

888

:

Christine: You can't make it up.

889

:

You really cannot make it up./

890

:

Next call.

891

:

We need some justice, justice, justice.

892

:

And I wanna ring bells in public.

893

:

I wanna ring bes in public nor crowd.

894

:

Yeah, but I To the fo Yeah.

895

:

I To the fo Yeah.

896

:

I to the fo fo teaser.

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About the Podcast

The JudgeMental Podcast
From the Creators of Judge-y
The JudgeMental Podcast features two attorneys, Hugh and Christine, who bring over three decades of combined litigation experience to the mic. Now venturing into a bold new initiative—"Judge-y", a website and soon-to-be app—they aim to give lawyers and litigants a platform to evaluate judges and promote accountability within the judiciary.

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Hugh Barrow