Episode 2

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Published on:

22nd Jul 2025

Ep 02 - The Bet Conclusion

In this episode, the hosts break down the results of the bet over Kentucky craft beer. How many judges were in court on a Tuesday at 1:30 p.m.?

Hugh breaks down the reasons that led to him leaving family law after twenty years while Christine questions whether or not the system was designed to operate this way.

Either way both attorneys agree it's past time for judicial accountability and discuss what led them to want to create Judge-y.

Transcript
Hugh:

and I knew it was bad, but.

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Give me a break.

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There were, there were floors

of the courthouses, plural,

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that were empty, just empty.

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And it was like, not even like well

lit, like it's just like middle of the

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day, like zombieland bodies around.

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You are listening to

The Judgemental Podcast.

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We're Hugh and Christine, the Minds

Behind Judgy, the revolutionary app

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that empowers you to judge the judges.

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It's pastime for judicial accountability

and transparency within the courts.

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Prepare for sharp insights, candid

critiques, and unshakable honesty from

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two lawyers determined to save the system.

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We need some justice.

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Justice, my fine justice.

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And I wanna ring, be in public.

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I wanna ring, be in public crowd.

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Yeah.

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Christine: All right.

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So

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Hugh: celebratory beer.

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Christine: Yes.

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Cheers.

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Hugh: I'm having one too.

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Christine: Yeah, you

shouldn't be allowed to,

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Hugh: shouldn't be allowed to.

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Christine: So we had a bet, um, we

picked a random day Tuesday at one

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30, and we had a bet there were 39

judges of how many would be there.

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And I said, I bet there's

not 12 in the courthouse.

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Right.

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Hugh: And you were right.

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There weren't even 12.

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Um, I forget how many, I said,

honestly, I'll have to go back and look.

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Um, I usually think of myself as a cynic.

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Yeah.

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Hugh: But I, and I knew it was bad, but.

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Give me a break.

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There were, there were floors

of the courthouses, plural,

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that were empty, just empty.

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And it was like, not even like well

lit, like it's just like middle of the

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day, like zombieland bodies around.

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Christine: It's, it's zombieland.

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It is the apocalypse.

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It is, it is COD level.

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I mean the, it really is.

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Hugh: It was like when you had to go

over there for something in COVID.

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Yeah, it was very much like that.

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Um, now.

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I think right off the bat we have to

acknowledge this is July 4th week.

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Mm-hmm.

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Hugh: We know that there

will be some vacations.

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It is a week that is a little bit

more likely to be a vacation week,

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just because you were automatically

gonna get one of those days.

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But we also looked at, um, a lot of the

judge's dockets to see if they had been

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canceled or if they were taking off.

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Who was on vacation and yeah,

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Christine: there were no family

court judges that were on vacation.

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Now I will say Division 10, Derwin

Webb said no docket for today.

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Okay, so we had three of 10 family court

judges and we are being very lenient.

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With one judge, because that

judge, we didn't actually see, but

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we did see an attorney walk out

and say that they had a hearing.

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So I think it's reasonable to deduct

that they were working Now, if they

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were wrapping up for one at one

30 for the day, I guess that's the

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life, um, that he was elected to.

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Hugh: I don't think there was

much, couldn't have been much of a

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hearing, a long hearing, uh, probably

something more perfunctory or a CMC

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type thing to, to be finished by

the time we ran into that attorney.

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But

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Christine: also that

attorney seems like in a.

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Jovial mood.

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Hugh: It didn't seem like,

uh, normally you come out of

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a heated hearing, it seemed.

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Uh,

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Christine: yeah.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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So it didn't seem like it was major

business going on in there, but, uh,

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Christine: you never, you hadn't been

to district court in a minute, right?

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Hugh: It had been, it had been

months since I walked through there.

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Maybe a year almost since

I walked through there.

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It's been.

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Probably two or three years since

I, I've practiced a case there.

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Christine: So the first thing you said

when we walked in, you're like, why

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are there so many sheriff's office?

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I'm like, they're always there

because the courtrooms aren't open.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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So inside, right where you come

through the metal detectors, now

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there's a larger area roped off with

a bunch of chairs and just a ton

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of sheriffs sitting around talking.

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And I, I don't mean to disparage them

by saying they're sitting around,

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but they're sitting in the chairs.

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They're having conversations.

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And it was almost a little intimidating

when you walk through the metal detector.

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There's that much law

enforcement like right there.

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And it didn't occur to me for one

second that those were the sheriffs,

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uh, the deputies that were in

the courtrooms and they're just,

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when they're not having court.

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They, there's nothing

for them to do at moment.

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Yeah.

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I'm a huge moment, huge speech of the

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Christine: Sheriff's office moment.

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They work really, really hard.

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Um, and I certainly like don't think they

have, they're as frustrated in my opinion,

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with the fact that there's no court.

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They know they couldn't

work like that, but,

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Hugh: but yeah, it didn't occur to me.

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I walked in, I was like, that's.

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Kind of odd.

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That seems like pretty heavy

on the enforcement side, right?

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Inside, like the metal detectors.

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And I didn't realize, oh, these are

just the people whose courtrooms are

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closed and they don't, they don't

have a courtroom to be in right now.

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I, yeah, that was, that was amazing.

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And it also, what was it, the second,

the, no, the whole first floor.

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Whole first floor.

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There's nothing was going

on floor for the Hall

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Christine: of Justice.

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And that's wicked old, like the

Hall of Justice needs a renovation.

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Not that it, it looked like

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Hugh: they didn't have like

two lights on in the place.

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Seriously, it was dark.

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I would've if, if I didn't know any

better and hadn't seen the place before,

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I would've walked in and thought, oh, did

I come on a day when they're not open?

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Christine: Yeah.

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Hugh: And I guess I'd be partially right.

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Christine: The first floor was

completely not a courtroom open.

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I don't think we had any

sort of, um, court staff.

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We may have run into one person from

the prosecutor's office and aside.

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Room.

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I can't remember if that was

on the first or second floor.

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Second floor.

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So total we had six.

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What did we have?

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Two on the second floor

and four on the or?

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No, three on the second and three

on the third, which is six outta 16.

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I'm not very good at math.

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What's that?

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Percentage?

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A little more than a third.

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Right?

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It's,

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Hugh: I mean, it's uh, it

was just shocking on me.

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It was really.

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Yeah, I mean I know when I worked over in

district court mostly I would try to get

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everything on the nine o'clock docket.

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I didn't do a whole lot on the

one, and I knew a lot of attorneys.

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Most the attorneys were there

on the nine o'clock docket.

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I didn't see that many ever

on the one o'clock docket.

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And a lot of that was, uh, generally it

was easier to get in and get out and get

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your stuff done at nine o'clock 'cause

attorneys were over there and they would

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get the attorneys in and out quickly.

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Yeah.

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And it seemed like a lot more pro se over

in district court on the afternoon docket.

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So I just assumed that it was

sort of a madhouse, sort of like

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the cattle call largely pro se

dockets over in family court.

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Christine: Well, that's

the other thing too.

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There really weren't even

any people in the courthouse.

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No.

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Like that.

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Hugh: It was just nothing was going on.

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Right.

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Like it was we, we could just.

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Walk around.

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Walk around unnoticed.

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Like we had a couple people

that, oh, can we help you?

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It was just odd that we were even there.

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Yeah.

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People were wondering why people are,

you know, why are you even here today?

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Christine: I don't even know if I ran into

an attorney that I recognize on that side.

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No.

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Of the courthouse.

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I don't, didn't think we did.

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Hugh: I didn't see an

attorney over on the court.

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Christine: I saw one.

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Oh, well,

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Hugh: we, we did.

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Now the courtrooms that

were open, I looked in.

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I did recognize people.

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Yeah.

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There were people that were

sitting inside the courtroom, but.

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Generally walking through.

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I mean,

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Christine: but this is

how district court is run.

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That's my understanding is that, uh,

there's gonna be six in the afternoon,

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six in the morning, so still you

only have 12 courts with 16 judges.

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Like obviously there's gonna be

juvenile court, which is gonna be

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confidential, and I understand that.

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Um, and it's my understanding

that we do have a.

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Juvenile court judge that does work,

um, and is doing a hell of a job.

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From my understanding.

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I've never seen it in real time

because of the confidentiality aspect.

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Sure.

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But it's just a population

of that many people.

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The backlog that they have in

Jefferson County, you could make

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a traffic ticket last four years.

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You know, there is zero excuse

for the courtroom not to be

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hustling and bustling between the

hours of at least 10 and three.

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On a weekday.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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I mean it was, it was shocking to me,

but I don't know those dockets as well.

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I know that

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I don't remember, you know, in my time

working on probate and things like

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that, I don't remember the dockets

being anything that I needed to get

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done, being delayed for months and

months and months, the way that things

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are regularly over in Circuit Court,

and especially over in family court.

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Yeah.

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So I don't know.

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To me, it was just sort of shocking

to be over there and it looked

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like nothing was going on and

the place was pretty much closed.

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I don't know how that ties in, how

backed up the dockets and everything

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are that I, I just, I didn't

touch that very much in the last

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couple years of, of my litigation.

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The family courts I know are backed up.

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Yeah.

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I know how long it takes to get rulings

out of so many of the divisions.

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I know that.

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There are school choice issues that

are, you know, people are waiting on

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pins and needles to figure out Sure.

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Where they need to enroll their,

their child before deadlines.

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We have all kinds of things that

needed to be decided yesterday that are

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going to be sitting for more months.

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So that's the part, you know, because it

was, it was, uh, part of my regular daily

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practice that really shocked me the most.

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It was that the family

court, there were three.

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Three seemed.

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Completely dead, other than,

I mean, we had one floor that

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we had just nobody was on it.

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Mm-hmm.

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Now, there was a court going, there was

court going on in one of the divisions.

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Yeah.

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And, uh, I think there was a hearing

going on, but otherwise you wouldn't

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even know that that was open.

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It was just a, a ghost town on that floor.

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And for the most part, the circuit

court building was like that.

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We saw one attorney with

their client sitting out.

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Mm-hmm.

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We saw on one floor.

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Uh, two, it would look like pro

se litigants or witnesses waiting

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to be called into a hearing.

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Oh, that was, um,

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Christine: he was an attorney.

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He's a great guy.

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I'm not gonna say his

name on this podcast.

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It was talking to those two

females for circuit court.

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Hugh: Oh, no, no, no.

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That's, I I had forgotten that

there were two people that were

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just sitting in the chairs.

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Right.

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Um, and then there was outside one of

the circuit court courtrooms, there was

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a whole pool of juries waiting to get

called in, I mean, of, of jurors, uh,

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waiting to get called in, um, presumably

for a jury trial that was going on.

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Other than that, there was

nothing going on on that floor.

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And it's, it was, I think by the

time we were over there, what, 1 45?

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Yeah.

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On Tuesday.

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I, I just, yeah, I, I'm cynical,

but I really expected, I

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expected something different.

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I, I did not know that there

were that few people at work.

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Christine: Yeah.

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And there were, at that moment,

two or three circuit court judges.

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On the bench, which is, well, I guess

one, there is a, was a jury trial going

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on, but still that is an astronomical

amount of money that taxpayers are paying.

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You know, I really think if you go to

the counties, you're gonna see that

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the courtrooms are gonna be open.

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And I don't think people realize too,

that haven't been to Jefferson County.

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That when the courtroom, their

courtrooms are literally locked.

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Like if you think you're supposed

to be there that day and or you have

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something, you got subpoenaed for the

wrong day, or you have a question,

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um, you can't even talk to a staff

member like the door is locked.

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Like you don't get access to division

seven, you don't get access to Division

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10, whatever the division may be.

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Um, but neither of those

people were there today.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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And I, and I fully recognize that some

of the judges could have been there,

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they could have had something that

settled the last minute and they're

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sitting in the back and they decide.

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Well, I'm gonna take

make use of this time.

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I'm gonna write orders.

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I get that.

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But knowing every motion hour

that I would go to and ask for a

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hearing, how many months down the

road to get that hearing, sometimes.

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Um, I mean, I would imagine that family

court practitioners here in Jefferson

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County are almost to the point where

they're scheduling things next year.

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Yeah.

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And some

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Hugh: of the divisions will probably

be scheduling in:

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that I imagine their clients and

the client's kids feel are urgent.

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Yep.

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But they're not gonna be able to get

in front of the judges until next year.

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So I understand that you can't, you're

not gonna be in court all the time.

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But this is in most of the

divisions, regular circuit docket

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time where you could be having

hearings and moving through and

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getting some of those cases done and

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Christine: hearing what the litigants or

what the constituents of Louisville need.

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And also, so I think Tuesday is also

important just in this whole narrative.

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I never knew any judge to pick

Tuesday as a writing day when

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I was in private practice.

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I never wanted to write on a Tuesday

because motion hours are so intense.

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Really, I would be much more in litigation

mode Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.

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Sure.

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You know, and then I, Thursday

to me was a big writing day,

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because Friday you really can.

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I like to get stuff resolved on a Friday.

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Everybody's in a good mood.

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You can get call opposing counsel,

you know, talk to your client.

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Mediations are great on um,

Fridays, but a Tuesday between one

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30 and two, I think it's shocking.

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And also let's like just take a step

back if they are in the back writing.

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There is zero reason that their courtroom

should be locked to the general public.

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Like, because there are two

safeguards for somebody being able

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to get back into chambers, it would

be an impossible thing to happen.

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But the courtrooms taxpayer find a

courtroom should be open during working

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hours for people to go sit in observe.

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Hugh: Well, I'm just thinking, uh,

you know, the number of times, uh,

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in my litigation practice where

I needed a judge for something.

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Yeah.

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And.

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I mean, it used to be, it used

to be a lot easier to find.

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Um, it used to be able to get, you know,

go buzz in and get to the back in chambers

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after COVID, understandably, that the

protocol changed for it, but then became,

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um, there's just a lot of gatekeeping now.

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And then with the courtrooms locked.

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They're closed off to the public.

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Christine: Yeah.

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I don't even know what you would

do if you had an emergency.

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I can't think of what floor we were

on where there wasn't a single judge.

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But so for, for reference, um, when

you needed somebody in the back, like

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you go to the corner and you'll hit

Buzz to get to four different judges.

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But I wonder if we would've

done that, if there would've

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even been anyone that answered

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Hugh: fifth floor on, on the,

uh, at seventh of Jefferson

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at the, um, judicial center.

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So

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Christine: that would

be, and the first seven

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Hugh: Oh, it was, uh.

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Well, the ninth and the seventh

floor, no, sorry, the fifth and

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the ninth, we didn't find anybody.

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And then the first floor

over at the Hall of Justice,

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Christine: nobody,

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Hugh: not a single person.

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So it also, you know, if as a practitioner

there are regular times where I would

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have to get, have to get permission,

um, to look at a family court file.

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Oh yeah.

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And a lot of them are confidential.

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They're a juvenile docket and.

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You need to get someone to

sign to let you into that file.

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And those kind of orders

are pretty perfunctory.

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You just have to find a

judge to sign them, but it.

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Um, the latter, the, the last couple years

I've found it very hard to find someone,

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and you often run the risk if you find a

judge that's not the presiding judge on

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the case and you get them to sign it, then

all of a sudden you're at odds with the

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judge that's presiding over the case when

they see that other judges are signing

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orders that let you into their case.

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Christine: Okay, so

let's back up with that.

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That's like a civil war right there.

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Mm-hmm.

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So if I've got a case in front of two,

can't find two, or I go to three to

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get them to sign an order, I mean,

that is something that the judges.

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Hate.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, and frankly, it's in my

experience, they sort of quit doing it.

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I mean, they would just be like, no,

you've gotta find this other person.

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Or get them on the phone.

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But there are real life consequences of

not being able to get access to a judge.

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Also like to some degree, to me, it's

just silly to even have this conversation

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in the notion we have 39 judges that are

paid between a buck 30 and $160,000 a

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year, and there was less than a third.

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If my math is right, and I'm a lawyer, so

I don't trust it, but less than a third

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of the judges you could get access to.

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As a constituent to either observe, go

to court, have an open co courtroom.

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Nuts.

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Hugh: Yeah,

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Christine: nuts.

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Hugh: It was, it was,

it was shocking to me.

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I'm, I, I hate to lose that, uh, but

I will admit that I was, I was wrong.

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You, you nailed it almost to the number,

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Christine: and we talk a lot

about how you're three months

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out of practicing full-time.

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Mm-hmm.

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I'm almost two, two and

a half years I think.

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And so I think the further away I

get from the practice of it, the day

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ins, the day outs, I sort of realize

how messed up the whole system is.

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Um, but I did get this great beer,

but I forgot how spicy these are.

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I mean, it's wicked good, but like

also my mic is different than your mic.

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Like we gotta figure this out so I

can drink and talk at the same time.

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Well.

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Goals.

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It sounds like a skill issue.

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Christine: Yeah, I know.

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Um, so let's talk about, what did we

talk about last time that was so fa Oh,

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of course we're gonna pick a different

time to go down to the courthouse.

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We won't give them an update, but

it will be, I think the parameters

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need to be, be before four o'clock.

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I think we need to give him grace on that.

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We'll never do anything before nine

and we'll never do anything before.

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Yeah, after four.

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After four,

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Hugh: yeah.

397

:

True.

398

:

Also, we need a better, we need a way

to figure out who's actually present.

399

:

But there's not a, the way that the

gatekeeping is set up, it's, it's hard

400

:

to, it's hard to tell whether a judge

is there because they have good staff.

401

:

The staff, the staff does a good job of

guarding them and protecting their time.

402

:

And I get that.

403

:

I, I would want the exact same thing.

404

:

Well, let's think about it though, the

405

:

Christine: opposite way though.

406

:

It's their, they work for us.

407

:

They're on our dime.

408

:

Yeah.

409

:

I'm paying their salary.

410

:

You're paying their salary.

411

:

A kid that's slipping burgers

at McDonald's over the summer

412

:

is paying their salary.

413

:

Hugh: I get it.

414

:

But they, they know, I mean, the, the

staff knows whose team they're on and

415

:

all, and if, if, if their judges, uh, you

know, their judge has a pile of, of files

416

:

on the desk and they need to get through

it, and they're working through it, and

417

:

they do a little gatekeeping to protect

the judge's time so they can write orders.

418

:

I get that too.

419

:

It just, I, what I'm saying is.

420

:

It can make it hard for us to know

whether, whether people are actually

421

:

at the courthouse or not, regardless of

whether the courtrooms are open or not.

422

:

Christine: I tell you what,

we should send them a sign.

423

:

We should have 'em be.

424

:

They could put it on the front flip if

you're in the office, flip if you're out

425

:

of the office under Scouts honor, I'm

happy to donate that to all of them and

426

:

I'll send 'em an email saying That's true.

427

:

Y'all, we wanna know when

you're at the courthouse.

428

:

Um, I think one of the biggest

things that would be beneficial

429

:

would be for them to do time sheets.

430

:

I wanna know how much you're working.

431

:

I wanna know when you're getting in

the building, when you're leaving,

432

:

because Lord knows, we know there.

433

:

There is this whole rumor out there

that, or Misbelief, and this is how

434

:

it used to be, and this is how it was,

is in other counties, but that they're

435

:

doing a whole lot at work after hours.

436

:

I mean, in Louisville they have an

on-call system where staff attorneys

437

:

are doing stuff, um, and Oh yeah.

438

:

You know that they are not sitting at home

getting their dinner interrupted for a

439

:

phone call like they do in the counties,

or like they did back in the day.

440

:

At least in my experience.

441

:

Hugh: Yeah.

442

:

I, I, I don't know.

443

:

I just.

444

:

Yeah, we could even make, we

can make nice fancy signs that

445

:

look nice outside the courtroom.

446

:

Yeah.

447

:

Yeah.

448

:

It would just, it would

just be interesting to know.

449

:

I, I'm fascinated by this now.

450

:

You raised it the last time.

451

:

Uh, we were on camera and I thought it

would be an interesting exercise, but

452

:

I, I really was shocked today to that.

453

:

It felt like we were, I mean,

it felt like summer vacation.

454

:

Mm-hmm.

455

:

I mean, it felt like when, you

know, I bet it would be a similar

456

:

experience if I went to one of my

kids' schools right now, I'd see two

457

:

or three people there, here and there.

458

:

But it would be obvious that it

was closed and nothing was, no

459

:

business was being done there.

460

:

That's how it felt to

the courthouse today.

461

:

So

462

:

Christine: I think I told you too,

when we were walking, I was like,

463

:

it's wrong because I was right.

464

:

But I feel bad.

465

:

Like I almost wanted to just go.

466

:

There have been so many times

in this last two years where I'm

467

:

just like, do something that will

allow me to stop feeling a moral

468

:

obligation to look into this.

469

:

Just do your job and so I can go back

to being an attorney and making a

470

:

great living and not feeling like,

you know, a moral obligation to say

471

:

this is what they are doing to people.

472

:

Hugh: Well that's, boy,

that's a, there are a lot of

473

:

topics just in that statement.

474

:

No doubt.

475

:

Christine: Wow.

476

:

Half, I mean, three sips of a beer in it.

477

:

It's been a unique journey and I

think it'll be interesting to see

478

:

where you land on it, like throughout

the space, because there was a time

479

:

when I wanted nothing to do with it.

480

:

When I left family law, I ran in

the exact opposite direction of it.

481

:

Didn't read cases, didn't talk about

it, didn't want to give any sort of

482

:

advice, um, and then felt compelled to

come back in after hearing some stuff.

483

:

And obviously after the

selfie recording and then.

484

:

Once I filed the JCC complaint,

I went back in that world.

485

:

I'm done talking about this,

the system is gonna fix itself.

486

:

And then that didn't happen.

487

:

And then you hear more stories.

488

:

But I also feel like from my public

defender days, or just people

489

:

in the community, you see that

it's happening not just at family

490

:

court, it's district and circuit.

491

:

Hugh: Yeah.

492

:

And well, I mean, one thing we've learned,

um, since launching, um, yeah, we, the,

493

:

the stuff that's coming in from the

entire country, I mean, it's, it sounds

494

:

like the exact same thing everywhere.

495

:

The, the.

496

:

Uh, and, and I didn't, I guess I didn't

realize it so much because in the,

497

:

basically for three months after I

stopped practicing, I stopped reading

498

:

opinions unless they were appeals that I

had pending or, you know, things where,

499

:

I mean, I, I definitely cared about the

cases I was involved with, with clients

500

:

that I cared about, but I stopped paying

attention to other people's cases and.

501

:

I took a break, sort of

a mental break from it.

502

:

Then stepping back in and hearing all that

people report, like, like tons of people

503

:

every single day, reaching out to us with

stories about what happened and, and this

504

:

happened and that happened from attorneys,

from, from litigants, from people that

505

:

are, um, you know, might be a casa worker

or some, something similar in another

506

:

state that they just see happening in

the courtroom where they regularly work.

507

:

It, it brings me back to a couple

of cases that led me to practice

508

:

less in court and to more, I mean,

I, I knew that in my practice I

509

:

needed to delegate more run teams.

510

:

We were expanding out into other

states and, um, needed to be a

511

:

business person and help grow.

512

:

But I also didn't realize that there were

a couple court experiences where I saw.

513

:

Families and kids being torn apart by,

uh, improper procedure and, and judges

514

:

who were just in a bad mood or didn't like

what somebody filed and would threaten

515

:

to take a child away that moment with,

with no warning that they would have to

516

:

switch homes just because they were angry.

517

:

That I was avoiding.

518

:

I mean, I, I was just pulling back

from my own personal involvement in the

519

:

cases in my own court work because, um.

520

:

It was so frustrating.

521

:

It was intensely stressful, but also

it, it felt like more and more my

522

:

experiences over in the family court

523

:

made me look down upon the

profession a little bit.

524

:

Oh yeah.

525

:

Like it was something that I, I really,

as an attorney, you, you realize the

526

:

role you play in people's lives, the

role you play in, in, in the law, in.

527

:

I mean, you're part of this big system

and there's this whole grand idea that,

528

:

you know, basically, especially people

in litigation have to believe in order

529

:

to endure the stress and keep going

and have a positive mental attitude.

530

:

But it was undermined, you

know, 50% of the time I was

531

:

over there actually in court.

532

:

That if I work hard, if I prepare,

if I learn the rules better than

533

:

anybody else, then I'll succeed.

534

:

Mm-hmm.

535

:

Where none of that matters.

536

:

And it was just sort of a roll

of the dice and, and what mood,

537

:

you know, certain people were in.

538

:

Or, you know, what a court appointed

person says, you know, even though

539

:

they've, they've never talked to anyone

in the case, what they decide to make

540

:

up that day, it really made a huge

difference in, in my willingness to

541

:

continue just day-to-day litigation.

542

:

And I was more than happy to hand off

most everything outside of some, you know,

543

:

larger, ongoing cases to, to other people.

544

:

I, I didn't reflect on

that well enough until.

545

:

Some of the stuff, I started

revisiting those cases.

546

:

Mm-hmm.

547

:

When we started talking, we started

reading through, um, things that

548

:

people submitted to us and it,

it started just to ring true that

549

:

oh yeah, this is set pattern.

550

:

Big, big difference in my own personal

journey to, to sort of pull back

551

:

and, and not be litigating any.

552

:

More.

553

:

Christine: Well, and we, a lot of

the comments that I've gotten from

554

:

people is they really believe that

the attorneys are in on the scheme.

555

:

Um, and I think it's hard to explain,

and by no means are we the victims, um,

556

:

in the same regard that litigants are,

that it's involving their children, their

557

:

marriage, their life's, their finances.

558

:

Hugh: That's a really, really good point.

559

:

Christine: Yeah.

560

:

I mean.

561

:

That being said,

562

:

Hugh: because we're getting paid.

563

:

Yeah, yeah.

564

:

No matter how the outcome is.

565

:

Yes.

566

:

You know, what the, what the

outcome is and how it happens.

567

:

Christine: So, or we're volunteering our

time and not getting paid and, you know,

568

:

lose, but it, it's, it, it's a mess.

569

:

And there's so many attorneys

that like I talk to that are just.

570

:

Broken, but they have got the

mindset that, okay, listen,

571

:

this is what we're gonna do.

572

:

We're just gonna get everything

resolved outside of court.

573

:

Mm-hmm.

574

:

So they go that through that

pattern for six to eight months.

575

:

Oh yeah.

576

:

And then there's something that has

to go to court and they're like, you

577

:

won't believe the ruling I just got.

578

:

You can tell that the judge

didn't look at anything.

579

:

Oh yeah.

580

:

And so then it's the mental

health spiral of the attorney

581

:

realizing this isn't working.

582

:

And you have attorneys.

583

:

When I left I was 37.

584

:

Um, but you have attorneys that are

55, 60, they're so close to retirement.

585

:

Um, and it's really difficult to be

in a system and see it as just an

586

:

objective outsider, you know what I mean?

587

:

Yeah.

588

:

Which is why when I went into the

school system, that's what changed me

589

:

talking about this in the way I did.

590

:

'cause I was in the school

system like, y'all, this is nuts.

591

:

That ain't no way.

592

:

This is how it's supposed to go if

we're talking about educating kids.

593

:

And everyone was like, well,

this is how we've always done it.

594

:

And I was like.

595

:

This is how my clients

feel in family work.

596

:

I was about

597

:

Hugh: to say, how many times

have you heard when you've said,

598

:

well that doesn't make any sense.

599

:

Why would we do it that way?

600

:

That's just the way that it works here.

601

:

Yeah.

602

:

Like when you're talking about,

especially some of the dependency,

603

:

neglect and abuse dockets, or if you

have a guardian ad litem who is just

604

:

an attorney representing a child.

605

:

Mm-hmm.

606

:

Starts dictating things like a

judge, making recommendations and

607

:

telling you the way it has to be,

and you're thinking you don't.

608

:

Get, how do you get to do that?

609

:

Who are you?

610

:

Well, that's just the way

that it, that it works.

611

:

And the judge is gonna

say to do what I mm-hmm.

612

:

I tell you to do.

613

:

And you're thinking,

but you're not a judge.

614

:

You don't have any authority in the case.

615

:

Yeah.

616

:

Hugh: And then you start

realizing that the system is

617

:

just turned into this machine.

618

:

And I, I start looking at

it from the point of view.

619

:

I a litigant that's coming

into that and realizing.

620

:

You're just at everyone's mercy

and it's hard not to see the

621

:

attorneys as part of that.

622

:

And some of them might be if

you just sort of accept that

623

:

there are ways to navigate it.

624

:

You can say to a client, and I'm

sure that you, you experienced this

625

:

too, and, and for years I did that.

626

:

Number one, we're gonna stay

out of court if we go to court.

627

:

Yeah, for sure.

628

:

You're rolling the dice, you don't

know what's gonna happen, X, y, and z.

629

:

Uh, especially if you, if you're at a

stage in the case where you know who

630

:

your judge is going to be, you could.

631

:

Tell stories from past cases that were

similar, but to, to explain why you,

632

:

you don't want to go to court, but also

set them up for, okay, this person was

633

:

appointed to represent your children.

634

:

Here's how they're gonna operate.

635

:

They're going to tell you what to do.

636

:

Well, why do I have to listen to them?

637

:

And I have to the judge.

638

:

Yes, I understand that, but

that's the way that it works.

639

:

And the judge is gonna do whatever

this person says, and it's just you.

640

:

You can warn clients about it.

641

:

And you can navigate it and you

can make the best decisions and

642

:

give the best representation, but

it's hard not to when you're saying

643

:

There's nothing I can do about it.

644

:

Yeah.

645

:

Hugh: That's the way that it is.

646

:

Here's why you need to follow the

direction, even if they're wrong,

647

:

because the judge will sign off on

it, and if you don't, then you have

648

:

no chance in front of the judge.

649

:

After a while, you're just like.

650

:

You know, navigating, this

isn't really what I want to do.

651

:

I want to change.

652

:

I want to see this work the

way that it's supposed to work.

653

:

Christine: Well, acquiescing to

authority without the ability to

654

:

question it has literally led to every

tragedy that's ever happened in this

655

:

country, in this nation, in this world.

656

:

From the history, from the beginning

of the beginning of the beginning.

657

:

And I do think the court system is

gonna be the next one where we really.

658

:

See how problematic it has

become over the last 30 years in

659

:

particular after the pandemic.

660

:

I think there was a realization

of the ability to work part-time

661

:

when work remote, and I think they

leaned into that, um, in a way

662

:

that I can't even fully articulate.

663

:

Hugh: Yeah, and, and, and don't

get me wrong, I love virtual court.

664

:

I preferred it because.

665

:

Especially toward the, the

end of my litigation career,

666

:

I did document heavy cases.

667

:

I did mostly financial stuff, and if

you want someone to turn to the page

668

:

and actually look through stuff, it's so

much easier to put it up on the screen

669

:

and highlight it to where everyone

that's looking at the same screen will

670

:

be reading it and to keep people's

attention and to make sure that's in the

671

:

record that gets recorded in the record.

672

:

Whereas if I did that in person and then

later had to write an appeal about it.

673

:

Good luck finding an intact binder.

674

:

Like I, I was very good at keeping

them, but you'd have to keep a

675

:

physical binder, you'd have to dig

through it, whereas virtually it's

676

:

all right there on the record and you

can review every single bit of it.

677

:

And frankly, I, I enjoyed, I, I had

a space, um, I would take over a

678

:

conference room and sort of just build

a space with all the space I need

679

:

for everything I'd, and I'd put the.

680

:

Um, computer or whatever.

681

:

I had a, either a standing desk or a, uh,

laptop that would be up so I could stand

682

:

and feel like I was at the courtroom.

683

:

Yeah.

684

:

I like to stand when I talk and

I could just be very comfortable

685

:

talking in front of the camera.

686

:

So, so I enjoyed it.

687

:

Um, and I don't mean to, to say

everything should go back to in person

688

:

because to a certain extent, um,

especially when you have witnesses

689

:

from out of town, you get a big case

and you have people from out of town.

690

:

Having people be able to appear

and the judges being very

691

:

gracious and or opposing counsel

especially, can we go out of order?

692

:

My guy can it off from one to one 30.

693

:

Can we do his testimony and take

a break and do it right at that

694

:

time so they can be available?

695

:

I never had anybody give me any

trouble about that, and it was only

696

:

possible through the remote stuff, but.

697

:

You are absolutely right.

698

:

I started experiencing the same thing

during COVID and then after to where

699

:

hearings would get rescheduled and

there would be no real explanation

700

:

and neither litigant knew why.

701

:

Yeah.

702

:

Like all of this in court was just

canceled or there, there's large parts of

703

:

dockets that just weren't available, and

they weren't district court docket days.

704

:

They just.

705

:

There was no, they weren't there.

706

:

It was inexplicable.

707

:

And then like today, how many of

the courts did we go to that had a

708

:

docket posted for the week that showed

709

:

Christine: they

710

:

Hugh: were there, what

was gonna be, yeah, there.

711

:

I didn't see that on most of

the courts like it used to be

712

:

they, outside the court, you

would see the docket for the day.

713

:

You would see the docket for the week.

714

:

Couldn't even tell.

715

:

Christine: Oh, so you used to,

they would have a breakdown,

716

:

like uh, 15 minutes for this?

717

:

15 minutes for that.

718

:

15 minutes for that.

719

:

You know, they don't really, A weekly

720

:

Hugh: calendar?

721

:

Christine: Yeah, they had the weekly

calendar and they all had a weekly

722

:

calendar for family court that said

they would be there at this time,

723

:

I believe, except for division 10.

724

:

Hugh: Well, they weren't

posted at the courthouse.

725

:

I mean, they maybe, maybe on the website.

726

:

Yeah.

727

:

You know, we were looking

when I was over there.

728

:

It was, it was hard without going

to the website to look at that.

729

:

But you're right.

730

:

I mean, we reviewed all that stuff

for going over there, looking to

731

:

see if court was canceled today, if.

732

:

If there was no docket today, so we could

understand why someone wouldn't be there.

733

:

Christine: And just for clarification

too, if they were doing a quote unquote

734

:

re remote remote hearing, um, the

doors would've been unlocked because

735

:

we did walk into a circuit hearing

that it had remote litigants on there.

736

:

Yeah, no, that's right.

737

:

If the court's open, it's open.

738

:

They're not gonna have

the courtroom locked, so.

739

:

No, that's right.

740

:

They weren't conducting

a hearing even remotely.

741

:

Oh.

742

:

It's

743

:

Hugh: one of the weirdest things you

could ever, if you walk in, I've walked

744

:

in before looking for a judge's signature.

745

:

I saw them on the bench.

746

:

Thought that they weren't on the record.

747

:

I didn't see the light.

748

:

'cause they had something sitting kind

of up in the way and didn't realize they

749

:

were in the middle of a remote hearing.

750

:

And I walk in and they just, they're

screened so they can see the people

751

:

on the screens, but there was no one

else in the courtroom and it was.

752

:

Yeah, it was a functioning hearing.

753

:

It just, it felt so strange

'cause you had a judge and then

754

:

a bunch of people on TV screens.

755

:

But it works

756

:

Christine: well.

757

:

There are things that I

can just, in my opinion,

758

:

Hugh: it works.

759

:

Christine: There are things that can

be remote, but there are things that

760

:

cannot, there are things that you cannot

tell, um, by the demeanor of a person.

761

:

I'm not talking necessarily about

like financial stuff, where a

762

:

lot of that in circuit court

could be done too by submission.

763

:

Maybe not family court, but there

are certain things or deposition has

764

:

often happened that are submitted

to the court, um, and then adopted.

765

:

I, I struggle with the notion of not

being, giving people kids, giving

766

:

domestic violence orders, giving any

sort of those things on a remote screen.

767

:

I mean, I just, and just to back up a

little bit, during COVID I, they could

768

:

have made a system that was better.

769

:

They could have made some sort of order

that's like, Hey, we're gonna do this.

770

:

We have 10 judges that all have

different rules or different

771

:

preferences for things, but clearly

this remote hearing aspect has worked

772

:

in, into them getting a part-time gig.

773

:

Well,

774

:

Hugh: yeah, I don't know.

775

:

I, I have a different view on it.

776

:

I, I, um, if you're representing

victims of domestic violence, I

777

:

can't think of, I can't, I can't tell

you how many times I've sat in and.

778

:

Being in the courtroom with the

accuser, I mean with the, with

779

:

the accused, with the respondent.

780

:

Especially in a case where someone has

just suffered a long relationship of

781

:

abuse, not able to testify properly,

just that's evidence paralyzed if

782

:

Christine: perfect.

783

:

You're, you're giving my point.

784

:

You've proven my point.

785

:

Hugh: I, I agree.

786

:

But at the same time, um.

787

:

Well, you're right.

788

:

I, I've, you know, my, my

opinion is colored as from

789

:

my experience as a litigator.

790

:

Yeah.

791

:

Hugh: So I, I get it, but I,

I, um, I could go through that

792

:

testimony much easier sitting

793

:

Christine: no doubt.

794

:

Easier in a,

795

:

Hugh: yeah.

796

:

Easier.

797

:

But, but also you

mentioned de depositions.

798

:

I mean, how easy it was for me to

just pop up a video of someone at a

799

:

deposition to contradict their statement.

800

:

Whereas if you're

sitting in the courtroom.

801

:

To get it to play you.

802

:

I mean, that's like 10 minutes lost to

get the, the I, the everything working.

803

:

You've lost your moment to contradict

them, and by the time you get it to

804

:

play in the courtroom, because the

AV stuff is so bad, no one remembers

805

:

what the question was anymore.

806

:

Whereas I can have it queued up just

waiting for them to answer the question

807

:

and say something in the, in the

affirmative or in the negative, and

808

:

just be like, oh, well that's not what

you said three days ago, and I could

809

:

play it very quickly on the video.

810

:

There were just.

811

:

There's some things that lended

itself very well to, but are you

812

:

Christine: ready for me to get weird?

813

:

Hugh: So weirder,

814

:

Christine: if that's the case.

815

:

No, seriously.

816

:

Think about this though.

817

:

We've got our courthouse probably a

hundred million dollars, I'd say at least.

818

:

I mean, it's a gorgeous,

the judicial center.

819

:

Yeah.

820

:

Gorgeous.

821

:

Nice

822

:

building.

823

:

Christine: But so why don't

we just, um, and I think the

824

:

TikTok judge would love this.

825

:

Well, Byron Olay.

826

:

But why don't we just get an

industrial complex in Shepherdsville,

827

:

Kentucky, um, and let them go sit in

cubicles and just hear cases all day.

828

:

And then we can take that

a hundred million property.

829

:

We can make that into very legitimate

things that will help the community.

830

:

Hugh: You mean it could sit empty like the

other, all the other buildings downtown?

831

:

Christine: No.

832

:

We'll make it into something.

833

:

We'll make it into housing.

834

:

Hell, we'll make it a

hotel with a roof deck bar.

835

:

Well, I mean, imagine down there, but

it is a waste of hundreds of millions.

836

:

At least tens of millions of dollars.

837

:

But they don't need to be sitting in

these fancy courthouses that is, yeah.

838

:

What do you call

839

:

Hugh: that thing?

840

:

A hundred million.

841

:

It's not that beautiful, but it's

a Oh, you'll make another bet.

842

:

It's, it's a, oh, yes.

843

:

Actually,

844

:

Christine: I guarantee you I've got all

845

:

Hugh: the beer in the

world to bet I'm good.

846

:

Christine: I guarantee you that the

A OC paid more than a hundred million

847

:

dollars for the judicial complex.

848

:

Hugh: It is a government, yep.

849

:

Paying for a contract.

850

:

Christine: But we'll bet a beer.

851

:

I say over a hundred.

852

:

Hey, listen, I'm, I'm, I'm wrong.

853

:

I

854

:

Hugh: will take that.

855

:

I'm happy.

856

:

I mean, I'm, I'm happy

to admit that I'm wrong.

857

:

I'm not happy that I was wrong

today, but I think I'll win this one

858

:

Christine: and I'm not

happy that I was right.

859

:

I think there's a lot of conversations.

860

:

You know, we talk about how, like, you

know, I'm crazy Christine, ha ha ha.

861

:

In a funny way.

862

:

Um, and I think two things

can be true at the same time.

863

:

I'm crazy.

864

:

And these judges, uh, aren't

doing their job adequately.

865

:

But that being said, I did

almost after we left, I thought,

866

:

Christian, that was a little crazy

for you to say 12 or less people.

867

:

Like, I was like, you

should have bet more.

868

:

So I'm, my feelings are hurt.

869

:

I felt

870

:

Hugh: like when we left the

studio last time after recording,

871

:

I had a pretty good shot.

872

:

I had a pretty good shot,

but I was way wrong.

873

:

I mean it, it was because it was

a Tuesday and it was an afternoon.

874

:

Yeah, it wasn't long after lunch.

875

:

So this is.

876

:

I can unders, I mean, none

of 'em were still at lunch.

877

:

At I I never would have, even

when my office was downtown, I was

878

:

two blocks from the courthouse.

879

:

If it was after three o'clock, unless

it was an emergency for my client

880

:

and somebody was in danger, I would

never bother to go over after three.

881

:

'cause I would just would

never expect to find a judge.

882

:

Christine: Yeah.

883

:

Hugh: Um, but one 30 on a Tuesday.

884

:

On a

885

:

Christine: Tuesday, and I

cannot trust the importance.

886

:

I know I already said this, but

y'all, Mondays and Tuesdays are the

887

:

days that they should be working.

888

:

I mean.

889

:

Nine 30 to three o'clock, nine 30.

890

:

I mean, generally genuine,

you know, like Wow.

891

:

Aim high.

892

:

I know.

893

:

But it's like those are the two days

that I do feel like I have the most

894

:

optimism that the elected judiciary

of Louisville is actually working.

895

:

Hugh: I mean, and I get that.

896

:

I mean, there's the multiple

of, of those judges had district

897

:

court dockets on Tuesday.

898

:

I mean, they happen on Tuesday, and if you

get through them all by lunch, explain it.

899

:

What do you mean?

900

:

Christine: You're, so you're

saying district court where we, oh,

901

:

Hugh: sorry, sorry, sorry.

902

:

So, um, in the family court system

here, um, it's, it can work different

903

:

in different counties, but our, our

judges, especially in Jefferson County.

904

:

Have certain dockets that are

in, uh, district court, in

905

:

non-family court jurisdiction.

906

:

So I, I refer to 'em as district dockets.

907

:

We're talking about paternity, we're

talking about domestic violence.

908

:

We're talking about, uh, dependency,

neglect, and abuse that are

909

:

heard concurrent jurisdiction.

910

:

They're heard in family

court in Jefferson County.

911

:

If you're not chief judge, you have

those three dockets every single week.

912

:

So some of your days are taken

up and they may last all day,

913

:

they may not last all day.

914

:

You may get through your

docket in the morning.

915

:

You may go to the back and write orders.

916

:

Um, well this

917

:

Christine: is one thing the

legislator could clean up.

918

:

So like back when I first started

practicing, I was in counties that

919

:

didn't have family court, but with

the inception of family court.

920

:

Prior to that, our constitution gave

what we call concurrent jurisdiction.

921

:

Mm-hmm.

922

:

Of family court matters

to district and circuit.

923

:

Yep.

924

:

And so if you filed a paternity

action or h uh, like a child support

925

:

action dependency, neglection

abuse, that would go to the

926

:

district judge in that jurisdiction.

927

:

Yep.

928

:

If you filed a circuit court action,

which would be a divorce or a circuit,

929

:

uh, custody action that would go.

930

:

To the circuit judge, which

allowed for form shopping.

931

:

But our family court judges, anywhere

there is a family court, they still

932

:

hold these different dockets and I

do think our legislator could clean

933

:

that up and that would go a long

way into getting some efficiency.

934

:

Hugh: Oh, sure.

935

:

You mean clear it up and keep it with

district court for some of the docket?

936

:

I

937

:

Christine: would just say if there's a

family court, then they don't need to

938

:

be, they don't need to be determined or

allocated as a district court docket.

939

:

Like there's no reasoning for that.

940

:

The only person that benefits, quite

frankly is, uh, the county attorney.

941

:

Hugh: Yeah, no, I, I get that.

942

:

Uh.

943

:

I mean, I've always had mixed

feelings about it because all of

944

:

those things have the potential to

lead to circuit court family actions.

945

:

So you have the idea that you

have one family, one judge.

946

:

So if it starts off as just domestic

violence or a paternity action, child

947

:

support action, it could be that it leads

to a bigger family court custody action.

948

:

Mm-hmm.

949

:

Or dependency, neglect and abuse

can become a custody action

950

:

later, or a domestic violence

hearing could later play a role.

951

:

In a divorce that may not happen for

several years after the, after the

952

:

domestic domestic violence, um, you know,

district court docket and having the same

953

:

judge over, that makes a lot of sense.

954

:

One judge that understands

everything that's going on and

955

:

sees all of these things, in

956

:

Christine: theory, not in

practice, in my opinion.

957

:

Hugh: Well, yes, in theory

it makes a lot of sense.

958

:

Um, and I've practiced before judges

who I take that very seriously

959

:

and remember, you know, they.

960

:

The good old age.

961

:

Yeah.

962

:

Especially when small.

963

:

Well, no, I'm just talking about

in, in smaller towns where they know

964

:

everybody, they will remember, you

know, okay, you were here on a domestic

965

:

violence doc, you know how mm-hmm.

966

:

How are things going, you know, and

that'll be on the divorce docket later.

967

:

So it, it seems important for the, the

judges to know, but I also understand

968

:

that those three dockets take up a

lot of time for the not family court.

969

:

Court judges.

970

:

Not didn't.

971

:

That's, that's what was shocking to me.

972

:

So in my head, I'm always thinking.

973

:

Okay.

974

:

Legitimately they have, judges have motion

hours on Monday, they have these three.

975

:

If they're not the chief judge, they

have these three other dockets, and

976

:

then the rest of the week that's left

over is what they have to deal with.

977

:

All of the circuit, family,

divorce and custody actions.

978

:

Mm-hmm.

979

:

Adoptions, those kinds of things.

980

:

Um, and.

981

:

To a certain extent.

982

:

When I was practicing, I understood

why it took so long to get a hearing

983

:

before the judges, because they may

have three days out of their week

984

:

that are taken up on these dockets,

and that's just part of their job.

985

:

Mm-hmm.

986

:

But they're not getting any

other work done on those days.

987

:

But then you go over to the

court and you realize that.

988

:

I'm sure that people were in

court yesterday at motion hour.

989

:

Mm-hmm.

990

:

Who had, would have killed for day

to have some time with a judge today.

991

:

And they have things that greatly affect

the safety or the mental health of a

992

:

child or great financial potential harm.

993

:

Mm-hmm.

994

:

For waiting when, when, let's say,

uh, the parties can't decide who's

995

:

going to, um, control a certain

financial account, and then you have.

996

:

Certain political things happen that

might cause uncertainty, that could

997

:

cause a great loss or gain or the market.

998

:

Yeah.

999

:

In a financial asset.

:

00:41:16,343 --> 00:41:20,243

And then you, you're gonna have to wait

six or seven months and it's chaos.

:

00:41:20,243 --> 00:41:23,003

You don't know who's going to

be maintaining that or maybe

:

00:41:23,003 --> 00:41:24,353

nobody gets to make a decision.

:

00:41:24,353 --> 00:41:25,103

It just sits.

:

00:41:25,103 --> 00:41:25,313

Mm-hmm.

:

00:41:25,313 --> 00:41:26,483

And, and continues to lose money.

:

00:41:26,483 --> 00:41:27,653

I've seen it many times.

:

00:41:27,653 --> 00:41:30,548

Those people would love to have

been over there to hearing today.

:

00:41:30,548 --> 00:41:30,828

Yeah.

:

00:41:30,858 --> 00:41:33,263

With all in any one of

these closed courtrooms.

:

00:41:33,268 --> 00:41:33,308

Yeah.

:

00:41:33,808 --> 00:41:37,528

And I know that there were attorneys

yesterday who were probably being told end

:

00:41:37,528 --> 00:41:42,808

of the year, maybe early next year for a

hearing on even minor matters in a case.

:

00:41:43,493 --> 00:41:48,503

So it makes absolutely no sense why the

doors are locked and the lights are off

:

00:41:48,743 --> 00:41:51,293

at one 30 in the afternoon on a Tuesday.

:

00:41:51,353 --> 00:41:52,043

Christine: It is nuts.

:

00:41:52,283 --> 00:41:55,853

I did get a message, um, from someone

that I've been talking to and you

:

00:41:55,853 --> 00:41:57,803

know, y'all, I've got sources.

:

00:41:58,043 --> 00:42:01,493

I mean, you name it, I've got sources, um,

after doing this for as long as I have,

:

00:42:01,823 --> 00:42:03,503

but somebody said, thank you so much.

:

00:42:03,503 --> 00:42:06,053

I was in motion hour

yesterday and the judge.

:

00:42:06,383 --> 00:42:07,673

Actually seemed prepared.

:

00:42:07,673 --> 00:42:09,683

Now I don't know what division that was.

:

00:42:10,013 --> 00:42:13,823

Um, but I think the point of this

is I think that us going to the

:

00:42:13,823 --> 00:42:17,843

courthouses or they, that might

make them start coming to court.

:

00:42:17,873 --> 00:42:18,893

'cause we're gonna start doing this.

:

00:42:18,893 --> 00:42:21,023

At least I'm gonna

start doing this weekly.

:

00:42:21,293 --> 00:42:25,493

I mean it, the look on your face when

we did it, you, you were shocked.

:

00:42:25,493 --> 00:42:26,608

I could tell I was outta breath.

:

00:42:26,723 --> 00:42:27,533

Hugh: I'm still shocked.

:

00:42:27,563 --> 00:42:30,083

I, um, I'm still shocked.

:

00:42:30,203 --> 00:42:34,103

I, it was, it was, it was

just really disappointing.

:

00:42:34,103 --> 00:42:34,193

Mm-hmm.

:

00:42:34,433 --> 00:42:35,783

Just because I remember.

:

00:42:36,308 --> 00:42:39,728

Monday, the end of Monday

was one of the worst times.

:

00:42:39,728 --> 00:42:42,668

'cause you're done with motion

hour and it is time to talk to

:

00:42:42,668 --> 00:42:45,518

your clients about generally.

:

00:42:45,668 --> 00:42:48,458

I mean, every now and then it would

be you lost on a motion or something.

:

00:42:48,458 --> 00:42:50,468

You had to, you had to say what

the judge ruled or whatever.

:

00:42:50,468 --> 00:42:53,738

You had to get bad news, but

generally it was just explaining

:

00:42:53,738 --> 00:42:55,208

how ineffective the system was.

:

00:42:55,208 --> 00:42:55,298

Mm-hmm.

:

00:42:55,568 --> 00:42:55,898

Yes.

:

00:42:55,898 --> 00:42:56,828

I brought the motion today.

:

00:42:56,828 --> 00:42:57,278

Yep.

:

00:42:57,428 --> 00:42:58,533

You got a hearing in December.

:

00:42:59,678 --> 00:43:00,368

But what, what happens?

:

00:43:00,368 --> 00:43:01,448

It's all gonna be gone by December.

:

00:43:01,448 --> 00:43:01,958

Yep.

:

00:43:02,018 --> 00:43:04,088

That's the best that

could, that could be done.

:

00:43:04,088 --> 00:43:06,818

The judges, everything's just so

backed up and nothing can actually

:

00:43:06,818 --> 00:43:07,808

get done in the courthouse.

:

00:43:07,808 --> 00:43:10,718

And, you know, making excuses for

the system and all that to get over

:

00:43:10,718 --> 00:43:15,398

there and see, uh, that probably

actually isn't the case at all.

:

00:43:15,398 --> 00:43:16,958

Just nobody's actually working.

:

00:43:16,958 --> 00:43:17,648

That was, maybe they're in the

:

00:43:17,648 --> 00:43:19,358

Christine: back recording

tiktoks, who knows?

:

00:43:19,478 --> 00:43:19,988

Hugh: I don't know.

:

00:43:19,988 --> 00:43:22,658

It was a gut punch and I don't

know what was going on in the back.

:

00:43:22,763 --> 00:43:23,978

I, I, and I don't.

:

00:43:25,298 --> 00:43:28,028

My purpose in it is just for

the system to work better.

:

00:43:28,058 --> 00:43:29,888

I've seen how it affects people.

:

00:43:29,888 --> 00:43:32,738

I've seen how it negatively affect

clients and their families and

:

00:43:32,738 --> 00:43:34,388

kids, and I want it to work better.

:

00:43:34,448 --> 00:43:38,228

Same so I, you know, and there were

judges over there holding hearings.

:

00:43:38,348 --> 00:43:38,438

Mm-hmm.

:

00:43:38,678 --> 00:43:39,578

There were judges that

were working very hard.

:

00:43:39,578 --> 00:43:42,128

This certainly doesn't apply to

everybody, but it was just shocking

:

00:43:42,128 --> 00:43:47,078

how few there were in the courthouse

and how the divisions were closed.

:

00:43:47,078 --> 00:43:47,798

Locked, yeah.

:

00:43:47,803 --> 00:43:48,273

Lights off.

:

00:43:49,058 --> 00:43:52,778

On entire floors, there was

not even a light on, uh,

:

00:43:52,778 --> 00:43:53,618

outside, outside in the lobby.

:

00:43:53,618 --> 00:43:54,908

There were, but nowhere else.

:

00:43:55,028 --> 00:43:57,608

Christine: And I think it's funny,

the funny aspect of it, because

:

00:43:57,608 --> 00:44:01,208

I think these judges are starting

to take notice and I think they're

:

00:44:01,208 --> 00:44:02,828

starting to be like, is this serious?

:

00:44:02,828 --> 00:44:06,068

But we were recording in front

of the courthouse, um, just

:

00:44:06,218 --> 00:44:07,538

reporting on what we saw.

:

00:44:07,538 --> 00:44:10,748

And like the public defender's office

came out and were like watching us

:

00:44:10,748 --> 00:44:13,508

and they're so, and then I had a guy

come up to me who was like, Hey, I

:

00:44:13,508 --> 00:44:16,298

follow your tiktoks, so you know.

:

00:44:16,898 --> 00:44:21,158

There are people that are very, very,

very interested in this, and this is very

:

00:44:21,158 --> 00:44:24,698

grassroots and it really is the beginning.

:

00:44:24,698 --> 00:44:27,698

I mean, this is like the beginning of

July, I'd say We partnered up, has it

:

00:44:27,698 --> 00:44:29,048

even been two weeks, three weeks maybe?

:

00:44:29,708 --> 00:44:30,218

I don't even know.

:

00:44:30,218 --> 00:44:31,328

It's been like a whirlwind.

:

00:44:31,418 --> 00:44:33,218

Hugh: Yeah, it's been, it's

been a short period of time,

:

00:44:33,338 --> 00:44:37,478

Christine: but I'd say that since,

um, we launched Judgy, which we

:

00:44:37,478 --> 00:44:38,828

are still looking for stories.

:

00:44:38,828 --> 00:44:41,498

We wanna hear your stories,

but since that time.

:

00:44:41,638 --> 00:44:48,088

Tens of thousands of messages, whether

it be emails, calls, dms, reaching out,

:

00:44:48,088 --> 00:44:50,128

touching, you know, those sorts of things.

:

00:44:50,398 --> 00:44:53,608

It's just really hard to quantify

how many people have been affected.

:

00:44:53,608 --> 00:44:56,518

And I'm gonna be brutally honest, we

don't know what to do with all of it.

:

00:44:56,518 --> 00:44:57,028

It's been too

:

00:44:57,028 --> 00:44:57,178

Hugh: much.

:

00:44:57,238 --> 00:44:57,298

Yeah.

:

00:44:57,298 --> 00:45:00,403

We haven't been able to reach out

to a, a small percentage mm-hmm.

:

00:45:00,483 --> 00:45:01,198

Of people so far.

:

00:45:01,198 --> 00:45:05,578

I was really, I knew, I mean, I knew there

was, there was something going on here.

:

00:45:05,578 --> 00:45:05,668

Mm-hmm.

:

00:45:05,908 --> 00:45:07,798

And, and the number of people that are.

:

00:45:09,023 --> 00:45:13,523

Making content about it and talking about

some of the injustices, you know, made

:

00:45:13,523 --> 00:45:18,683

me know that this was, we were tapping

into something that, that there was a

:

00:45:18,683 --> 00:45:21,983

lot of, um, there were a lot of stories,

so there's a lot of emotion going on.

:

00:45:22,043 --> 00:45:27,653

I had absolutely no idea that the first

day that we launched our inboxes were

:

00:45:27,653 --> 00:45:29,363

flooded and the phones were just ringing

:

00:45:29,363 --> 00:45:30,263

Christine: hundreds the first day.

:

00:45:30,293 --> 00:45:31,733

Hugh: Like, if.

:

00:45:32,648 --> 00:45:36,158

It, you know, if somebody wanted to

take an angle like this as a law firm,

:

00:45:36,158 --> 00:45:38,258

they could generate so many clients.

:

00:45:38,258 --> 00:45:42,248

And, and I find that, um, you know, one

of the things we've had to say is we,

:

00:45:42,248 --> 00:45:44,198

we are not giving legal advice on this.

:

00:45:44,198 --> 00:45:45,968

We're trying to tell stories.

:

00:45:45,968 --> 00:45:48,938

We're trying to shine

light on something, but.

:

00:45:49,673 --> 00:45:52,133

It's really, really shocking.

:

00:45:52,253 --> 00:45:52,883

And just so everyone

:

00:45:52,883 --> 00:45:55,433

Christine: knows too, we've

done no promotional post.

:

00:45:55,793 --> 00:45:59,543

I mean the billboard went up, but I have

not done any sort of advertising online.

:

00:45:59,543 --> 00:46:03,503

Yeah, I mean really when I say grassroots

and I do think we gotta amp stuff up and

:

00:46:03,503 --> 00:46:07,643

if you would like to volunteer in any

capacity, it's Miller time Louisville DM

:

00:46:07,643 --> 00:46:09,443

me, or judging the judges on Instagram.

:

00:46:09,443 --> 00:46:10,673

That's the best way to reach me.

:

00:46:11,033 --> 00:46:11,663

Um.

:

00:46:12,398 --> 00:46:15,908

Independently if you wanna sign

or you want some drop cards,

:

00:46:15,908 --> 00:46:17,498

but we're gonna keep going.

:

00:46:17,498 --> 00:46:18,908

I had a thought, but I lost it.

:

00:46:18,908 --> 00:46:21,428

I think I've had half of a

country boy, and I'm like, woo.

:

00:46:21,788 --> 00:46:21,998

Hugh: Yeah.

:

00:46:22,178 --> 00:46:23,528

Well, you're promoted country boy.

:

00:46:23,528 --> 00:46:27,578

I'm, I'm drinking the Apollo IPA

from a, uh, apocalypse Brewing and

:

00:46:27,578 --> 00:46:30,038

it's, it is quite tasty as well, so

:

00:46:30,338 --> 00:46:31,838

Christine: I really did

forget how good these are.

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About the Podcast

The JudgeMental Podcast
From the Creators of Judge-y
The JudgeMental Podcast features two attorneys, Hugh and Christine, who bring over three decades of combined litigation experience to the mic. Now venturing into a bold new initiative—"Judge-y", a website and soon-to-be app—they aim to give lawyers and litigants a platform to evaluate judges and promote accountability within the judiciary.

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Hugh Barrow