Episode 1

full
Published on:

16th Jul 2025

Podcast Ep 01 - The Bet

In this episode, the hosts take a critical look at the inner workings of the judicial system.  They shine a light on judicial transparency, misconduct, and the far-reaching impact of judicial decisions on litigants' lives.

One major concern raised is the potential conflict of interest between judges and the media. They recount troubling instances of judges allegedly leaking to the press in high-profile cases and explicitly question whether the current a retired judge, is a spokesperson who squashes negative stories to protect judges' reputations.

Their conversation further explores alarming patterns of judicial behavior, including decisions made outside formal proceedings (ex parte communications) and favoritism toward select attorneys such as Guardians Ad Litem (GALs) and Friends of the Court (FOCs). 

The hosts share personal experiences, including a disturbing case where a judge ordered financial payments without a filed motion or hearing, based solely on an off-the-record discussion with opposing counsel.

They highlight the lack of accountability for such misconduct, pointing out that formal complaints rarely result in public consequences—often allowing problematic behavior to persist unchecked. 

The episode concludes with a powerful call for judicial reform, advocating for everyone to speak out. 

Transcript
Christine:

Let's go to the courthouse.

2

:

So you was there and let's see how many

of the 37, 39 judges there are, right?

3

:

Wait.

4

:

13, 10.

5

:

16, right.

6

:

39.

7

:

Hugh: Yep.

8

:

Christine: How many do you think?

9

:

Let's make a bet.

10

:

You are listening to

The Judgemental Podcast.

11

:

We're Hugh and Christine, the Minds

Behind Judgy, the revolutionary app

12

:

that empowers you to judge the judges.

13

:

It's pastime for judicial accountability

and transparency within the courts.

14

:

Prepare for sharp insights, candid

critiques, and unshakable honesty from

15

:

two lawyers determined to save the system.

16

:

We need some justice.

17

:

Justice, my fine justice.

18

:

And I wanna ring, be in public.

19

:

I wanna ring, be in public crowd.

20

:

Yeah.

21

:

Christine: I think too, like our local

judges are the predominantly the sources.

22

:

Like I know for a fact that,

uh, like Joan Byer was a source

23

:

for Courier Journal 100%.

24

:

Hugh: Oh, she, she would lie about

not letting the li, letting the press

25

:

in a hearing, and she would, oh, I've

had her tell me that she was going

26

:

to let us come in at a specific time

because I had a high profile case.

27

:

And the court, the, the press was kind

of around the courtroom looking for us.

28

:

Come in this way.

29

:

Come in on this floor.

30

:

I'll, I'll, I'll even

let you in the back door.

31

:

We'll come in.

32

:

We'll get it done before the press, you

know, can, can pick up on it because I

33

:

know that this could affect your, your

client's reputation and like this stuff.

34

:

Okay, great.

35

:

I mean, you don't have

to do that as a judge.

36

:

Yeah.

37

:

It's supposed to be public if

the press is there, but great.

38

:

I'm gonna take advantage of that

as an advocate for my client.

39

:

Well, I get there and not only are

they in the courtroom, but they've

40

:

obviously had all the time in the world

to set up and she starts by making a

41

:

statement and totally different than

the way she would normally do it.

42

:

Yeah.

43

:

And she just set it up, the whole thing.

44

:

And, uh, I remember walking in and

just, I just realized I'd be like, yep.

45

:

This is she absolutely has

set this up to grandstand.

46

:

Yep.

47

:

And I think

48

:

Christine: that's the system.

49

:

Like, so then the news is like, well,

the judge is my source and then I can get

50

:

clickbait, and now they just go down to

the courthouse and watch the arraignments.

51

:

I mean, that's the only

thing they seem to report on.

52

:

Hugh: Yeah.

53

:

But I mean, so think about this.

54

:

You have a judge who is

a source for the media.

55

:

Yeah.

56

:

And you have something that mine was a

alleged alleged domestic violence, case.

57

:

It was someone who was prominent that

people in the community would've heard

58

:

about and it could have affected his job.

59

:

and the judge as a source has this

the press there and they're going

60

:

to see how she rules on this case.

61

:

Mm-hmm.

62

:

That the public is going to think,

oh, this guy's a terrible guy.

63

:

Right.

64

:

You think there's any pressure

on her to rule in a specific way?

65

:

Are you kidding me?

66

:

And that, that was one something that I.

67

:

In the middle of it, I asked for a

recess to talk to opposing counsel

68

:

and got something worked out very

favorable for my client because it

69

:

was just so obvious that she was

grandstanding, she was grandstanding

70

:

about the issue, about domestic violence.

71

:

And in fact, when we settled it and

agreed to handle it in the divorce

72

:

case that was being filed by opposing

counsel, um, she did everything in her

73

:

power to talk them out of settling it

and was playing it up for the cameras,

74

:

like pushing and pushing and pushing

to get the parties to not agree on.

75

:

But she never

76

:

Christine: would've done if it

was pro se or she never would've

77

:

done if it was not, if it was just

a typical domestic violence day.

78

:

Yes.

79

:

Hugh: So yeah, them being a

source and having them, inviting

80

:

them into the courtroom.

81

:

I think on its face doesn't look

like a conflict of interest, but if

82

:

you are ruling on something right,

that the public would be outraged

83

:

if you ruled in a different way.

84

:

Right.

85

:

Regardless of what the

facts or the case dictated.

86

:

That's such a clear conflict of interest,

and I know, uh, you're, you're right.

87

:

That's the one person I know that

was a regular source for the press.

88

:

I know it happens in other places.

89

:

I just, I, you probably know

a lot better than I do who

90

:

those other sources might be.

91

:

Christine: Yeah.

92

:

Well, we, in Louisville, we've got Micha

Van, who is the court administrator,

93

:

but he's a retired judge and he

actively is a spokesperson for judges,

94

:

which I think is a violation of.

95

:

The judicial cannons.

96

:

I mean, really, they shouldn't have

a spokesperson, a press secretary,

97

:

talking about rulings, like in,

in a way to control the media.

98

:

But I know for a fact he squashed the

story with WDRB when we had the selfie

99

:

recording of the TikTok judge, like they

were going to do a story on it, like 100%.

100

:

And then he filled out some questions,

basically just saying that I didn't

101

:

understand things and that the judges

have a right to educate the public.

102

:

Hugh: That's interesting.

103

:

Yeah.

104

:

So I mean, I, I, I don't, I, it's hard

for me to weigh in on that 'cause I don't

105

:

know what the actual position entails.

106

:

Right.

107

:

I can see it being, you know, if he

represents the judiciary here and I mean,

108

:

there's gotta be a PR aspect to that.

109

:

And I can see that being

correct for him to do.

110

:

From, uh, this is your job kind of thing.

111

:

Yeah.

112

:

But then you also, he's a judge.

113

:

He's an ex judge.

114

:

He's representing judges.

115

:

You have different rules than, than

most other employees or most other

116

:

people that would be in a position.

117

:

I don't know enough about it.

118

:

I would be speaking out of

ignorance, but I That is fascinating.

119

:

It makes me, it makes

everybody feel a certain

120

:

Christine: kind of way.

121

:

Right.

122

:

You know,

123

:

Hugh: but I mean, ultimately the result is

acting to keep, I mean, it's interesting

124

:

to say the judges have an obligation to

educate the public, but in, in effect,

125

:

what you're doing by making that statement

and defending the judge's behavior is

126

:

making sure that the public doesn't get

to know about that particular instance.

127

:

Literally, you just, just keeping,

keeping, uh, keeping the judiciary here

128

:

in this county from being embarrassed

by the activities that just look

129

:

really bad from one particular judge.

130

:

Oh man,

131

:

Christine: McKay.

132

:

Um, and then I don't think the Courier

Journal, they're not gonna report

133

:

on anything unless it is about a

politician first as far as family court.

134

:

So obviously they covered

Matt Bevin's case.

135

:

Um, but I don't think that I've

ever seen anything in the Courier

136

:

Journal, criticized critical

of outcomes of family court.

137

:

Have you,

138

:

Hugh: I think there have been some weird

opinions, that I've heard that there were

139

:

articles critical of, but I think it was,

140

:

and, and I'll have to look,

but I mean, there's been.

141

:

Judges who refuse to grant a

divorce to someone for odd reasons.

142

:

Yes.

143

:

That was Monica

144

:

Christine: Mari Meredith

outta Bullock County.

145

:

Yeah, but that's not Louisville.

146

:

Hugh: No, that's not in Louisville.

147

:

I think something was written about it.

148

:

I think granting custodial

rights to a fetus.

149

:

Oh.

150

:

Warranted a few articles in the press.

151

:

I don't think,

152

:

Christine: did the

courier write about that?

153

:

Hugh: I don't know that the courier did.

154

:

I, what I know is no one that I

knew from outside of the legal

155

:

community, outside of the family

law community even knew about it.

156

:

But I think that it did get talked about

maybe in some small way in some press.

157

:

And so for

158

:

Christine: a reference, this is

Judge, um, almost said Adams Judge,

159

:

Lauren Ogden, that declared, I guess

a fetus, a child, and awarded custody

160

:

of a fetus to a pregnant mother

without confirmation that she was

161

:

Hugh: pregnant.

162

:

Temporary custody, I believe at a DI

believe that it was a DVO hearing.

163

:

It was.

164

:

And, and the woman claimed to

be pregnant and she awarded.

165

:

Yeah,

166

:

Christine: I think it was on Zoom too.

167

:

Maybe not.

168

:

I could be wrong on that, but

that sounds like division four.

169

:

Hugh: It's, I mean, it's it's an odd

circumstance and I, I think I remember

170

:

reading something about it, although

it may have been on someone's blog.

171

:

Okay.

172

:

Um, I typically, most of what I've, I

hear about that our judges do is from

173

:

other attorneys, um, blogs or, you know,

people that write short articles about

174

:

published opinions and things like that.

175

:

Less in the courier, anywhere like that.

176

:

Christine: But people are much more

likely to touch traffic court or

177

:

family court than they ever are,

you know, circuit court felony stuff

178

:

or high asset, um, fights there.

179

:

And so it's just perplexing to me

that there's not more reporting on it.

180

:

Hugh: I also think, if I'm a reporter,

a multi-day jury trial or a jury trial

181

:

where you're gonna get a ruling that

day, you're waiting for the jury to

182

:

come back, that is far more interesting.

183

:

if you're making a report.

184

:

for the daily news or you're doing

a news piece, on air that's a lot

185

:

more interesting true than something

that well, both sides presented.

186

:

And it's a complex issue, and it could

be six months before we hear about it.

187

:

It's gonna be hard to get

people's attention that way.

188

:

That's true.

189

:

So I, I get that aspect of it, but

190

:

I What was, I mean, to the extent

that we have judges that are sources

191

:

to the press, what is the goal?

192

:

I, I felt like control the narrative.

193

:

I didn't.

194

:

Yeah, but why so it's all about, I

didn't understand about politics.

195

:

Bayer retired before she ran again.

196

:

She wasn't in any danger of being

removed that I had heard of.

197

:

And I had had to try to remove her and

remove her from cases, um, for some of

198

:

the things that she did that I found,

I saw her doing on video and would have

199

:

to, you know, file motions to recuse her.

200

:

But she never seemed

to get in any trouble.

201

:

She wasn't, there was no heat on

her and she wasn't, I don't believe,

202

:

planning to run again at that time.

203

:

So what would be the.

204

:

Point, uh, you know, of, of her

wanting to leak things and set

205

:

things up for the press, I guess?

206

:

Well, I

207

:

Christine: think so many, many of these

judges are just doing it for power.

208

:

Like they just want to

be quote unquote famous.

209

:

The reality is, you know, any good

litigators that work 40 hours a week

210

:

that are making less than what these

judges are, they're all making more.

211

:

Hugh: I don't know that.

212

:

I think, I think probably, I think,

um, there was a time where, um,

213

:

hell, uh, this makes me feel old.

214

:

I know in 2011 was the first time

I believe that the a BA journal

215

:

published that less than 50% of people

coming outta law school had jobs.

216

:

And a lot of schools in the next

seven, eight years following that,

217

:

um, close their law schools shrunk the

size because it was getting flooded.

218

:

There was a period of time where I

could have an attorney for less than

219

:

a paralegal, and I could do that for

years, and I was able to hire them Now.

220

:

I always wanted to pay bonuses

and keep good people, and we

221

:

wanted to pay really well.

222

:

Yeah.

223

:

But the starting non-guaranteed money was,

you know, a fraction of what judges made.

224

:

And now I was just starting out.

225

:

They, I couldn't afford, you

know, when it was just me

226

:

working to hire people for more.

227

:

So I, it was helpful to me and, uh.

228

:

But I know for a long time,

attorneys were struggling.

229

:

I knew a lot of people, uh, when I

lived in DC that just worked contract

230

:

jobs on the side because, you know,

their litigation practice couldn't

231

:

earn enough to live in that city.

232

:

And, which is

233

:

Christine: like a whole

different thing though.

234

:

People that decide they, Hey,

I wanna work so I could have

235

:

security and have health insurance.

236

:

Yeah.

237

:

But I'm talking about anybody that's

a solo practitioner that's successful.

238

:

You know, when I was practicing, I

didn't often work 40 hours a week.

239

:

I mean, I tried to take some time

off and travel and do all of that.

240

:

That's what I loved about

practicing was the flexibility.

241

:

But these judges, I guess to go

back to, why are they sources?

242

:

They want the attention,

they want the fame.

243

:

They want to be the quote

unquote, good guy, good girl.

244

:

You know?

245

:

I mean, I

246

:

Hugh: guess that's the, you know, same

motivation for wanting to go on TikTok.

247

:

I don't know, LL if there's really

a motivation to try to get reelected

248

:

and you're gonna be able to do

it by TikTok in this political

249

:

age, who knows, maybe that works.

250

:

But I, I, I could never figure it

out with Judge Byer back in the day.

251

:

Why?

252

:

I don't know.

253

:

And, and maybe it could have been my

client at the time, she just, you know, I

254

:

mean, some people just did not like him.

255

:

There were lots of people coming

outta the woodwork to take him down.

256

:

It was pretty rough.

257

:

But you shouldn't be the

258

:

Christine: judge, you know?

259

:

I mean, no.

260

:

Hugh: Yeah, that's exactly how I felt.

261

:

and at the time, opposing counsel was

not involved in that aspect of it.

262

:

The opposing side changed counsel and

got someone who was very much involved

263

:

in trying to do things behind the scenes

to put pressure on my client with source.

264

:

Okay.

265

:

Not at the time that that happened,

the, the first time that it happened,

266

:

uh, with Judge Byer inviting them

in and having a whole gallery of

267

:

press waiting when we walked into

the courtroom expecting that we were

268

:

gonna have a short, private hearing

269

:

Christine: and then told you the opposite.

270

:

Well, and the thing about Joan,

and, you know, I came back in

271

:

2014, so for anyone listening.

272

:

Louisville Family Court

had a complete flip.

273

:

Like it was all new

judges for the most part.

274

:

I think one maybe stayed, but I only there

275

:

Hugh: were two Haney.

276

:

Oh yeah.

277

:

Um, and two And Sherlock

stayed in 10 for a lot.

278

:

For a little bit.

279

:

Yep.

280

:

Christine: And I was in front

of Joan one time and she started

281

:

a DVO without me being present.

282

:

Like I was in a different

court room and she was rude.

283

:

She was all the things, I mean,

I was shocked about her demeanor.

284

:

And then of course I ran into her, you

know, a year later and she wants me to

285

:

use her as a mediator and, oh, are you

the nicest person that's ever lived?

286

:

But I do think there is something

to be said about judges in general

287

:

having favorites or treating

attorneys differently, that practice

288

:

in front of them all the time

as opposed to outside counsel.

289

:

Hugh: Oh, sure.

290

:

No, I, I agree completely, but

I also know that they're human.

291

:

Yeah.

292

:

And that's gonna be part of it.

293

:

And we were talking earlier about

judges in smaller towns that, and I,

294

:

I do believe that there are judges

who want to be good civil servants

295

:

and they go in there because they love

their community and want to do it.

296

:

In fact,

297

:

uh, the former judge in Oldham County,

judge Feely, he just cared about

298

:

his community and you could tell.

299

:

Mm-hmm.

300

:

And he wanted to do what was

right, regardless of whether it

301

:

was within the rules of the law.

302

:

He, but he knew everybody

in that community and there

303

:

was no way around that.

304

:

Yeah.

305

:

You couldn't have a judge from

the towns that he, you know, uh,

306

:

where he worked and where he lived,

where he wouldn't know everybody.

307

:

And that's just going to be part of it.

308

:

I don't think you can get

that out of the system.

309

:

And in fact, bringing, you know, making

someone from a different county be a

310

:

judge over, you know, a specific county.

311

:

It doesn't seem quite right either.

312

:

I mean, when you're dealing with

jury trials, you want the juror, the

313

:

jurors to be representative of you.

314

:

They want, you want them to be your peers

to a certain extent, although it's not

315

:

explicit in, in any founding documents or,

you know, and the law, you kind of want

316

:

your judge to be part of that community,

317

:

Christine: part of the community.

318

:

It's like police officers, I

mean, you really want police

319

:

policing areas in which they live.

320

:

That's because they're

gonna be more invested.

321

:

but I just think the pendulum maybe has

swung a little bit too far with judges.

322

:

And now there are great judges.

323

:

I think that I get text

messages all the time.

324

:

I wish you would talk about the

good judges and every single

325

:

appearance I've ever done, I've said

there are good judges out there,

326

:

there are great judges out there.

327

:

I don't get many stories of that, and I

do think it's because there are less of

328

:

those good stories, at least right now.

329

:

Hugh: Well, I think that's right.

330

:

And I, and usually when I'm pointing

out something that a judge has gone,

331

:

you know, had, has done poorly, and

this is, you know, I'm only a few

332

:

months out of litigating, so I'm.

333

:

Sort of still wearing that

hat to a certain extent.

334

:

I'm thinking about in this instance,

the judge did the wrong thing.

335

:

Mm-hmm.

336

:

Didn't follow the law in this

instance, not that this is a bad judge,

337

:

that they did something incorrect

or they didn't follow the law.

338

:

I'm appealing because this is not

correct and I'm still looking at it

339

:

that way where I, where I can see a

judge doing something incorrect, that

340

:

doesn't mean they're a bad judge.

341

:

God knows I made tons of mistakes

as a litigator, I would make

342

:

just as many mistakes as a judge.

343

:

I think it becomes concerning

where there is intent, there's

344

:

clear bias, there is a pattern.

345

:

Mm-hmm.

346

:

there is a disregard for the rules

and, and just my way is the highway.

347

:

I think that's different than

when judges make a mistake.

348

:

And I agree.

349

:

When, when you asked me about, you

know, good judges versus bad judges.

350

:

I don't have like a super clear answer

because I can say things that every

351

:

single, just about every single judge

has done that I've really, really

352

:

admired and thought, man, I wish,

you know, I wish all the judges would

353

:

be that easy to go back and correct

their errors when you point them out.

354

:

I mean, certain ones that I have

appealed multiple times and have opinions

355

:

against, you know that, that I way

too often point out the problems with,

356

:

have done things throughout the cases

that I thought were absolutely great.

357

:

And then there are others that.

358

:

I think in general, I've always

appreciated when I walk out of

359

:

their courtroom, win or lose.

360

:

I appreciate the way they handled it.

361

:

Yeah, and I think that happens

quite a bit, but you're right.

362

:

People aren't going to go online

and fme and, and write comments

363

:

about, you know, how great when

the judge has done things correctly

364

:

and that's not, not terribly fair.

365

:

It's also less interesting to the public

when people are doing things well.

366

:

Christine: Yeah.

367

:

I'm two years out and I will tell

you that there is a component.

368

:

The further out you get where you're

like, whoa, we were doing this wrong.

369

:

Like the system is operating in

a way that is perpetuating bad.

370

:

Outcomes for families and kids

and litigants wrapped up in it.

371

:

You know what, Dan Cannon, have you

ever read his book about the plea

372

:

bargaining where No, that's like the

biggest problem within our system is

373

:

our system where we have plea bargains.

374

:

Because if you don't take the plea

it incentivizes taking the plea.

375

:

Like 'cause if you go Sure, no, it

376

:

Hugh: absolutely does.

377

:

Christine: 100 And I think that was

the road to hell was paved with good

378

:

intentions and obviously plea bargaining.

379

:

Bargaining was meant to resolve

cases or get people to take

380

:

accountability and get less time or

get them in treatment, yada, yada.

381

:

But I do think that maybe it's just

gotten out of control where it's

382

:

like a prosecutor is like, well

if you don't take this deal then

383

:

you're gonna get 20 and that's sick.

384

:

I mean, that's a human

being to some degree, you

385

:

Hugh: know?

386

:

Yeah, well I mean it's

the adversarial system.

387

:

Yeah.

388

:

Like, so when I think, you know, when

I came into family practice and I

389

:

was, I was an attorney in a totally

different realm in international

390

:

environmental law and moved.

391

:

It's at Louisville, Kentucky

where that career doesn't exist.

392

:

And I tried some cases in

different, um, subject matters

393

:

and found that I liked family law

because you're arguing to a judge.

394

:

You're arguing someone who

ultimately, at least in theory,

395

:

knows the rules, knows the law.

396

:

You're not arguing and having to

translate everything to a jury.

397

:

So you can make the kind of arguments

that you're thinking about in your

398

:

head that you would wanna put in

your pleadings and that you could,

399

:

to a certain extent, predict, you

know, it's hard with the jury.

400

:

Yeah, you might be in involved in

picking your jury, but you don't

401

:

really know how they're going to act,

how they're gonna act to when they

402

:

get together in a room with a judge.

403

:

The more times you've been in front of

him or her, you sort of know what you're

404

:

getting, you know what to prepare for.

405

:

I like that aspect of it.

406

:

One of the things that really struck me

coming into family law, at least in how

407

:

family court works in Kentucky, which.

408

:

It was a very progressive system, way out

in front of, most of the other states and

409

:

putting together a specialized system to

deal with family issues is on its face,

410

:

it seems like a much more humane, smart

way to deal with soft issues involving

411

:

kids, involving people's personal

details and personal lives than to just

412

:

have the typical adversarial hearing

in front of a jury where someone else

413

:

is just deciding your fate that easily.

414

:

And you had all of these other tools.

415

:

You have parenting coordinators

and friends of the court and

416

:

GS and yeah, in theory it

417

:

Christine: looks great.

418

:

Hugh: Yeah.

419

:

And like you said, the road of hell

is paved good intentions, but then it

420

:

becomes this sort of, it sort of becomes

a machine and it's a machine that.

421

:

Develop, its develops its

own habits and biases.

422

:

Mm-hmm.

423

:

And it evolves outside of what

was intended by the law and the

424

:

regulations and the lawmakers

who set the system up Yep.

425

:

Would probably be shocked to see

how the system actually works now

426

:

that it's evolved and it's grown.

427

:

All of these different tentacles.

428

:

Mm-hmm.

429

:

And, um, yeah wish,

wish I knew the answer.

430

:

Christine: What do think the checks are?

431

:

Like, what are the checks

on the judiciary right now?

432

:

Are there any

433

:

Hugh: I don't know of any that's, I we

talked, we talked briefly about the, there

434

:

there used to be the form you could file.

435

:

Yeah.

436

:

Like if a, if a court, just for the

specific issue of untimely, um, ruling.

437

:

So if a judge is sitting on

something for a long time, we used

438

:

to have a form we could fill out.

439

:

It went to Frankfurt to the administrative

office of the courts and they checked in

440

:

to see if they could move things along.

441

:

Judge-y June 24 Content: Mm-hmm.

442

:

Hugh: And to a certain extent,

the judges would know that if they

443

:

took too long, someone was sort

of paying attention and watching.

444

:

Yeah.

445

:

That was a small check.

446

:

You have the Supreme Court, which

regulates all of the judges.

447

:

And in extreme cases, attorneys can

bring things before the Supreme Court

448

:

alleging things about the judges.

449

:

So there, there's the check,

but that's sort of a check.

450

:

In the same way, bar complaints are

against attorneys, yet nobody wants one.

451

:

We all try to act in a way

that that doesn't happen.

452

:

But is it something you're thinking

about every single day or even

453

:

every week or even every month?

454

:

Yeah.

455

:

No,

456

:

Christine: no, not at all.

457

:

It's probably

458

:

Hugh: not, even, not, not something that.

459

:

And it is something that's every now

and then someone will throw around

460

:

and it's usually some meaningless

threat and it's not something you're

461

:

really terribly worried about.

462

:

So I can't imagine the judges are

thinking about, you know, those

463

:

really rare circumstances where

somebody brings a motion before

464

:

the Supreme Court about a judge.

465

:

Christine: Yeah, and I have some regrets

honestly, for filing a complaint against

466

:

the TikTok Judge for the selfie recording

in the sense that the fact, all, I can

467

:

say, obviously our ethics, but there

was no public or private reprimand that

468

:

would be on the website if that happened.

469

:

And that's all public record, but

everything else is confidential.

470

:

And I think that her knowing that

a complaint was filed against her,

471

:

that no one can ever see any process

of that, and that nothing came from,

472

:

it just emboldened her to, you know,

post a TikTok today during her docket.

473

:

You know?

474

:

And I think that's like,

what, what did I do?

475

:

And now all the other judges

are like, well, I mean, there's

476

:

not gonna be any consequence.

477

:

Hugh: Well, I, I agree.

478

:

I, I've had an instance where.

479

:

I had an order signed in a case,

um, and it related to financials

480

:

that were not before the court.

481

:

Wait, what?

482

:

That no one had ever heard.

483

:

So this is, this is a case I had

back hell, it was probably 10.

484

:

Okay.

485

:

No, probably 14, 13, 14 years ago.

486

:

I had a case, high asset case.

487

:

we were early on in the case.

488

:

Then in the mail I get an order that

requires my guy to pay like $10,000

489

:

worth of financial stuff on behalf

of the other party every month.

490

:

And no disclosures have been filed.

491

:

So what that means is no

financial information has been

492

:

put before the court at all.

493

:

No one has filed any motions and it talked

about specific accounts in the order.

494

:

So clearly the judges talked to

someone and learned something outside

495

:

of the pleadings outside of that.

496

:

So I went, knowing that the attorney

on the other side was close to the

497

:

judge or had been in the past and had

other cases in front of the judge, I

498

:

went and watched motion hour video.

499

:

Saw an interaction up on the bench, uh,

at the bench that was recorded where the

500

:

judge asked that attorney about the case I

was involved in and whether his attorney,

501

:

whether his client was getting paid.

502

:

And when he said no, she told

him to bring an order by and said

503

:

she'd be there this afternoon and

shortly thereafter, I get an order.

504

:

So these things are

happening off the record.

505

:

I brought that up to the Supreme Court.

506

:

I brought a motion to

remove her from the case.

507

:

It got denied without much explanation.

508

:

There was never any, there was never

any, that I had seen published.

509

:

Nothing public anyway, um, where

there was any reprimand that

510

:

anything was actually done about it.

511

:

it was a very short

order denying my motion.

512

:

Didn't get into the merits,

didn't talk about anything.

513

:

the.

514

:

Christine: Di denying your

motion to have her recused,

515

:

Hugh: to have her recused for just

blatantly ex parte and telling the other

516

:

side to come by and ex parte and bring an

order by, um, when no motion was filed.

517

:

nothing was done to the judge and

the chief judge at the time in

518

:

Louisville reallocated the case.

519

:

Okay.

520

:

To his courtroom, took her off the case.

521

:

So on a local level, my client

was protected and the case got

522

:

taken away from that judge, but

nothing was done to the judge.

523

:

But how many times do

524

:

Christine: you think that happened?

525

:

Hugh: Oh, I think, oh, I,

I, it's hard to speculate.

526

:

Uh, but the fact that it was

that blatant, I raised it, I

527

:

took it up to the body Yeah.

528

:

That regulates judges.

529

:

Nothing was done.

530

:

I, I think if judges know they can get

away with something like that mm-hmm.

531

:

Then there is no worry whatsoever

about the regulating bodies.

532

:

Christine: Absolutely.

533

:

I mean, you should probably lose,

I mean, you should be suspended

534

:

from the bench obviously, for that.

535

:

But I would say that's a major ethical

violation just for having a law license.

536

:

Hugh: Uh, oh.

537

:

Yeah.

538

:

I mean, I think if I went an

ex parte judge, I could get,

539

:

Christine: yeah,

540

:

Hugh: I could get suspended from practice.

541

:

Oh.

542

:

So a judge just inviting people to come by

and bring orders that they will sign, with

543

:

no hearing and nothing before the court.

544

:

I, I, I just can't imagine.

545

:

So I know that stuff happens.

546

:

Yeah, I've seen it.

547

:

I certainly wouldn't allege something

like that if I didn't have video

548

:

of it actually happening, and I

couldn't believe it when I saw it.

549

:

I remember bringing it to the attention

of the clerks and the staff that worked in

550

:

the family court at the time, and there's

been a whole lot of turnover since then.

551

:

So it's not the same people,

none of them were surprised.

552

:

They said that they'd heard

about that kind of stuff.

553

:

They knew what was happening.

554

:

They were very happy.

555

:

In fact, it was funny, I filed

that with the Supreme Court.

556

:

I went and had to ask, I'd

never done anything like that.

557

:

I went and had to ask the clerks down

at, you know, 700 West Jefferson first

558

:

floor and the family court how to do it.

559

:

And there was this one clerk, She was

the head of adoptions at the time, and

560

:

she was just always so prickly with me.

561

:

Like there was just

something, yeah, yeah, yeah.

562

:

It was like oil and water,

like she just acted like, and

563

:

I was a young practitioner.

564

:

I made a lot of mistakes or I would

have to ask too many questions, but

565

:

she just seemed so annoyed with me.

566

:

I brought that motion by and was

asking where I needed to file it,

567

:

how it went through the process.

568

:

She came around outside away from the

desk and came up and gave me a hug.

569

:

I was filing that against this judge

because they had heard, they had so

570

:

many people saying the same things

and all this kind of stuff about her.

571

:

This person didn't like me, came and gave

me a hug for doing something about it.

572

:

But

573

:

Christine: just to extrapolate

that like further how often this

574

:

is happening, how many like of my

followers will say something that I

575

:

may perceive initially like is crazy.

576

:

There's no way that happened.

577

:

And then you hear that this happened.

578

:

Yeah.

579

:

And that person was on

the bench for many years.

580

:

That person is no longer

on the bench, right?

581

:

Hugh: No, no longer on the bench.

582

:

Christine: That's right.

583

:

Um, but you just sometimes some of

the stuff you can't make up and then

584

:

that's where I get weird as far as

talking about these good judges that

585

:

I maybe respect or admire is you hang

out with someone that does that you're

586

:

okay with someone doing that because

you guys are all in the same club.

587

:

Like

588

:

Hugh: Yeah, but how, what do you,

I mean, first of all so just in

589

:

the few short weeks that we've been

working together, I've learned so

590

:

much that is just blown my mind.

591

:

And I know that other people

were experiencing this all the

592

:

time, but I didn't know about it.

593

:

Yeah.

594

:

When I was working hard and I was

working around the clock as a litigation

595

:

attorney, I knew this kind of stuff

was going on, but I was worried

596

:

about getting through my stuff.

597

:

I fully understand that these judges,

the ones that are working hard and

598

:

doing their good job, have way more

work than they can ever get done.

599

:

And let's say a judge is two floors up

from someone downstairs, how often are

600

:

they interacting other than the kind

of events that, you know, I don't even

601

:

like going to, you know, with the bar

that I, I just, yeah, I don't, I don't

602

:

enjoy a lot of the, the social, public

stuff as much as some, and so how, how

603

:

would a specific judge on the third

floor in the upper divisions know that

604

:

what the ones downstairs are doing and

be aware of it and be complicit in it?

605

:

I, I don't know how much.

606

:

Christine: I don't think they have

a duty to seek out that information.

607

:

Right.

608

:

Like, I don't think they have a duty

to go to someone's courtroom and

609

:

watch how they conduct business.

610

:

But I do think once something is

told to them once, twice, a hundred

611

:

times, they have an absolute

duty to look at it differently.

612

:

Hugh: You know, when that happened,

I went to another judge, um, who I

613

:

had a lot of respect for, I won't

name her name here, just because I,

614

:

Christine: I

615

:

Judge-y June 24 Content: got you.

616

:

I haven't,

617

:

Hugh: I haven't talked to her about it.

618

:

And then being involved in

this, I, you know, whatever.

619

:

She was keenly interested.

620

:

She told me how to go get the, uh, I

don't remember if the videos were, if

621

:

the DVD system was pretty new back then.

622

:

I mean, this was quite some time ago.

623

:

Yeah.

624

:

But told me exactly what to

do, what to look at, and to

625

:

come to talk to her about it.

626

:

At the time, she was the chief judge

and it changed while my case was,

627

:

uh, up in front of the Supreme Court.

628

:

Fantastic.

629

:

Really interested that

this stuff was going on.

630

:

Wanted to see what happened.

631

:

Like I.

632

:

I, I am not talking about

just paying lip service.

633

:

I'm talking about really concerned that

that was going on, on the bench there.

634

:

So I Well, that's great to hear.

635

:

I think, and I have no idea.

636

:

That's why I don't want to, I don't

want to raise any names, be I, I don't

637

:

know how much she had to do with the

case moving outta that judge's division.

638

:

Yeah.

639

:

It would not shock me if that's what she

was doing behind the scenes to protect.

640

:

Right.

641

:

But also I know that even the chief

judge position over there doesn't

642

:

really have power over the other judges.

643

:

No.

644

:

So none of the judges have, while they

may have an obligation to report certain

645

:

things that they know specifically

about, um, they don't have any power

646

:

themselves to do anything about it,

647

:

Christine: which I mean is in and of

itself though, the bigger problem,

648

:

like these are the people that are in

charge of making all the decisions.

649

:

About our lives.

650

:

I mean, taking away all of

your constitutionally protected

651

:

rights to parent, to liberty.

652

:

I mean, you can incarcerate people, take

their property, take their finances,

653

:

take their children, and it's just,

well, it's a hard system, you know?

654

:

Or, well, it's not their job, and

it's just, if this is the best we

655

:

can do, we should just give up.

656

:

Hugh: Yeah.

657

:

I mean, who looks, I mean, we have

that at all levels of government.

658

:

The people that are the top, that

make the biggest decisions don't

659

:

necessarily have someone that's

micromanaging and is able to determine.

660

:

I mean, there, there, let's say you

go to the, the state legislature.

661

:

How much does one person, maybe on one

side of the aisle know about what the

662

:

other people are doing behind the scenes

if they catch them, or do you know?

663

:

They, they have evidence of something.

664

:

Certainly they raise it, but,

665

:

Christine: well, I mean, Mitch

McConnell was dancing to explicit

666

:

language at a Christmas party.

667

:

It's gonna be all over the media.

668

:

Hugh: Yeah.

669

:

The media's different though.

670

:

The media.

671

:

Okay.

672

:

So to a certain extent, the, I

mean, the media is an important

673

:

part of our political system

for shining lights on things.

674

:

Yeah.

675

:

But they also know that Mitch McConnell

dancing to, uh, a, a song that,

676

:

that uses inappropriate language is

going to get views and people are

677

:

gonna be interested in it a lot more

than a judge talking to one person.

678

:

And while no one else is present on a,

I mean, it just, it isn't interesting.

679

:

I don't, so, well,

680

:

Christine: I don't think so.

681

:

I think people will,

here's open, eat this up.

682

:

I mean, I think people will be

like, you have actual proof,

683

:

and it, it validates them.

684

:

I think it's very similar

to police brutality.

685

:

Like I think that that was

percolating for years and years, and

686

:

there's this conversation about it

that's happening and then all of a

687

:

sudden, 2020 we're all locked down.

688

:

We got those three cases.

689

:

Yep.

690

:

And everyone, it validates their feelings.

691

:

And I think it's, it does.

692

:

And then the judges have

gotten outta control

693

:

Hugh: by the time 2024 rule rolled around,

people have forgotten all about it.

694

:

And I, I don't know.

695

:

I, I'm hoping that there will be a larger.

696

:

Longer term interest in,

in this kind of stuff.

697

:

And in fact, I'm banking on it and I'm,

I'm making it, you know, something that

698

:

I'm, I'm willing to, uh, to work hard on.

699

:

But I, you know, the police brutality

thing that was so deflating to me that

700

:

there was just this whole movement

and everyone's eyes were open to it.

701

:

And then the, the, the term that was

used for, labeling yourself as aware

702

:

that the system is broken, becomes a

bad word, and no one wants to associate

703

:

it with messaging with it, it's like,

wow, this, it can turn that quickly.

704

:

And programs that are meant to avoid

that kind of stuff are now taboo

705

:

and, uh, illegal in some places.

706

:

So.

707

:

Christine: That's the money

machine, the political machine.

708

:

That's why go back to your beginning

of this podcast or this conversation.

709

:

Why did Joan wanna talk and

be a source for the media?

710

:

'cause if you're a source for

the media, you can control the

711

:

narrative in all instances.

712

:

Hugh: Yeah.

713

:

And if something happens in the

future, they're gonna go to you.

714

:

Well, it's true.

715

:

But I mean, I, I will say that I

worked on her camp, the campaign

716

:

that she won to be on that term.

717

:

I, I don't know how many, how

many, uh, terms she served.

718

:

'cause she was on the bench when I

started practicing here in Louisville.

719

:

Well, one of the things I

liked is she was very shrewd.

720

:

She had no problem saying

what her opinions were at all.

721

:

I, it's one of the things I respected

about her when I first, uh, started,

722

:

when I got to know her off the bench,

was that she's just very plain spoken.

723

:

And I, you know, it was just

always, uh, did you ever ask

724

:

her about the ex parte thing?

725

:

Personally?

726

:

Personally?

727

:

Yeah.

728

:

No, 'cause I, I, I, uh, chose,

I, I was angry enough about it,

729

:

um, and basically giving up my.

730

:

Practice in one out of 10 divisions

here in the county where I work.

731

:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

732

:

That I, once I was able to get past that,

I just didn't, I didn't wanna revisit it.

733

:

And I've just avoided interactions, um,

because it's just, uh, it's, it's still,

734

:

it's still hard for me to even think

about having a conversation about it.

735

:

I would be, I would be so angry

because there isn't, there isn't

736

:

anything that could be said.

737

:

There's nothing that could

change my mind about it.

738

:

It was blatant, just

blatant, this is what it is.

739

:

It's black and white.

740

:

You did this.

741

:

There's not gray area.

742

:

There's not, oh, it's because

of this, or there's exigent

743

:

circumstances, none of that.

744

:

There's no emergencies.

745

:

There was nothing.

746

:

You just, you just did a favor for

somebody that you liked and, and

747

:

Christine: then you've been on

her campaign, so it's not like

748

:

you've even got any loyalty there.

749

:

You know what I mean?

750

:

But yeah, I've reached out to the person

that ex parte, um, that was an attorney

751

:

at the time, and that is, uh, now a judge.

752

:

Hugh: And I was thinking when

she, when that happened on

753

:

that case, I thought, oh, just,

754

:

Christine: yeah.

755

:

Hugh: Wow.

756

:

Christine: Well, and I think that

they've gotten so quote unquote powerful.

757

:

And by powerful I mean small fish

in a big pond or what's the saying?

758

:

Is it big fish in a small pond?

759

:

Yeah, big fish in a small pond.

760

:

Pond.

761

:

But a lot of people, a lot of my followers

think that you get loyalty that their

762

:

favorites attorneys and stuff like that.

763

:

And there may be, but generally

speaking, they're just yelling

764

:

at all of us at this point.

765

:

Hugh: Well, the funny thing is there,

there's been some divisions I've walked

766

:

in and I've had, this is especially true

on the court appointed dockets, right?

767

:

So if you're going in on dependency,

neglect and abuse or paternity or

768

:

something like that, and the judge

has the same attorneys that represent

769

:

the kids, the parents, and they're in

front of the judge all the time, and

770

:

you come in, um, especially on like a

dependency, neglect, and abuse docket.

771

:

Most cases, the great, great, great

majority of cases don't have private

772

:

attorneys from outside of that system.

773

:

They're either pro se or they're a party

that automatically gets an attorney

774

:

appointed and they're from that group that

always practices in front of that judge.

775

:

So I would step in, someone would have

the money to retain private counsel to

776

:

come in and fight 'cause things weren't

going the way they were supposed to go, or

777

:

it was taking five times longer than the

statute allowed or something like that.

778

:

So I, would get involved in those

cases from time to time and I

779

:

would come into these divisions

and someone would pull me aside.

780

:

People that I was friendly with,

that also worked on that docket

781

:

that would tell me, watch out.

782

:

I saw that you were bringing this motion.

783

:

We've all been talking about it.

784

:

We saw it come through on this docket.

785

:

You know, the judge really loves this

person is gonna do whatever she says.

786

:

Across the board.

787

:

So you may want to think about asking

for it in a different way or trying

788

:

to present it a different way because

you're always gonna lose this because

789

:

of this person has favor with this judge

and just gets relied on all the time.

790

:

And whatever she says will, will

go no matter how outlandish it is.

791

:

And sure enough, it seemed to be, you

know, the next year or so, yeah, I, I

792

:

would see things like that happen and then

793

:

all of a sudden I would be told that,

that there was a falling out and that

794

:

the, the opposite would be happening.

795

:

And that, that, then I started

noticing them fighting like an old

796

:

married couple up at the bench.

797

:

And I'm just thinking, I know

that kind of stuff does happen.

798

:

Yeah.

799

:

but from a, you know, from a practitioner

point of view, knowing that I know

800

:

how to prepare my client Yeah.

801

:

So there's certain, I I kind of,

you know, it goes back to that thing

802

:

about knowing what you're getting

instead of having these things

803

:

decided by a, an unpredictable jury,

804

:

Christine: but like, so dependency,

neglection, abuse, the best way I

805

:

would describe it for anybody that's

curious is like, it's CPS cases, right?

806

:

Yeah.

807

:

So it's like if the Cabinet for Health

and Family Services is involved, there's

808

:

an allegation they're gonna offer

services, they're gonna remove kids.

809

:

That's it.

810

:

And so most of the, like the way

our statutes work is everybody

811

:

gets appointed an attorney and the

taxpayers pay and it's flat rate.

812

:

Okay.

813

:

Very different than what you see when

we're talking about some of these court

814

:

appointed people billing out early.

815

:

But rarely, if ever do private

attorneys go on those dockets.

816

:

Mm-hmm.

817

:

I mean, I'm in, in my career, in Jefferson

County, I would say maybe five, maybe 10.

818

:

I, you know, I, and there could be

more, but just not my, not my jam.

819

:

I didn't wanna sit around all day.

820

:

Um, you didn't wanna get homecooked.

821

:

And it's also just depressing.

822

:

Hugh: All three.

823

:

Very accurate.

824

:

Yeah.

825

:

Christine: So like I, this is

how I would describe dependency

826

:

neglection abuse court.

827

:

You've got babies addicted to drugs.

828

:

you've got caregivers, you know,

physically abusing children.

829

:

You have children overdosing after

getting access to drugs you have,

830

:

Hugh: or being addicted upon birth.

831

:

Christine: Yeah.

832

:

Uh, and you have, you know, a baby

that you, they can't find placement for

833

:

because a family member can't take them.

834

:

I mean, it is just the worst of the worst.

835

:

Debbie Downer, you know, beyond the pale.

836

:

but when you talk about how somebody gets

favor in that court, you know, these are

837

:

significant constitutionally protected

rights that are being messed with because

838

:

maybe one social worker, or maybe one

GAL is in, is a favorite that day, right?

839

:

Hugh: No, absolutely.

840

:

So, uh, the, there was a

fundamental right to parent your.

841

:

Child, I

842

:

Judge-y June 24 Content: could.

843

:

Hugh: Um, and I know that our legislators

in Kentucky realized that were prob

844

:

there were problems on these dockets

because they changed the law to protect

845

:

to a certain extent the rights of

foster parents to become parties to

846

:

a case and have a say in the case

once they reached an adoption stage.

847

:

Whereas historically, the foster

parents still in the DNA, stage of

848

:

the case, prior to there being an

adjudication, and then, a determination

849

:

that it's moving toward adoption.

850

:

They still don't have any say in anything.

851

:

They're the ones doing

all the heavy lifting.

852

:

They're the ones raising the kid.

853

:

They're the ones bonded with the child.

854

:

They're the ones going to

bat taking time off work.

855

:

Showing up for every court appearance.

856

:

They have no say, they don't get,

they don't, they're not represented.

857

:

They don't have, any rights in the cases.

858

:

That change in the law, indicates

that somebody knew that the system

859

:

wasn't working all that well.

860

:

But I don't, in my opinion,

it didn't go far enough.

861

:

Because

862

:

what I see is a court and then this select

set of attorneys that represent every

863

:

parent and or child in that division.

864

:

At least the accused

ones not the caregivers.

865

:

they're not entitled to the

representation distinction.

866

:

Yeah.

867

:

The, foster parents

don't get representation.

868

:

The people that are accused, and there are

important constitutional reasons for that.

869

:

But when the judge is reliant on this same

group of attorneys over and over again,

870

:

and they just, and they're socializing

With them, and I hear from attorneys

871

:

that are on these dockets, talk about

the conversations they've had about my

872

:

cases with the judge, and have told me

to my face that, oh yeah, when I talk to

873

:

the judge about this and I'm thinking.

874

:

You're not allowed to do that.

875

:

But I know what's happening all the time.

876

:

And some of these attorneys

just walk in the back.

877

:

And they, enter the courtroom

every single time from the judge's

878

:

office, from chambers as if

they're part of the judicial staff.

879

:

And it's just, they become that much

of the system that I think it, I, when

880

:

I come into those cases as a private

attorney, I'm representing someone that

881

:

doesn't have an court appointed attorney.

882

:

It's rare that anyone that gets a

court appointed attorney is going in.

883

:

In those cases where I know that there

are plenty of people that could get a

884

:

public defender, criminal cases, maybe

they will Change and hire an attorney.

885

:

That doesn't really happen in dependency,

neglect, and abuse very often.

886

:

So when I'm coming in, I was always coming

in for someone that doesn't have a right

887

:

to a court apparent appointed attorney.

888

:

So they're usually the people doing

the hard work, the friend, the

889

:

family member, the foster parent who

has stepped up to take on a child.

890

:

Now, I, usually couldn't represent the

foster parents 'cause they're not parties.

891

:

Until it got to the adoption stage.

892

:

But representing fictive kin cases,

representing grandma who is the one

893

:

that's raised the child since it came home

addicted to cocaine from the hospital.

894

:

Those are the people that would come in

and represent and it was so clear so many

895

:

times I would be there waiting around.

896

:

As you said, there's always waiting.

897

:

You show up, it's a cat hours cattle call.

898

:

They, discuss the cases in

cha in, in, conference rooms.

899

:

Then they slowly, once the case has

been decided on or can't be decided

900

:

on, has to have a hearing, it goes in

front of the judge and it just sits

901

:

in a pile and they get called one

at a times the number of times where

902

:

things have been called and discussed.

903

:

And no one comes to get me because

they just, the group talks about 'em.

904

:

Oh yeah, I don't get invited in there.

905

:

I'm representing a party.

906

:

I have a right to every single discussion.

907

:

They go in, they put it in front of the

judge, they have the judge sign something.

908

:

And my client doesn't even get to

know that the discussion's taking

909

:

place and you're excluded from it.

910

:

Christine: Okay, so this

is Jefferson County.

911

:

This is a Jefferson County thing.

912

:

Hugh: it's not just Jefferson County.

913

:

Christine: it's a Jefferson

County thing in the sense that

914

:

there is this closed courtroom.

915

:

Okay.

916

:

Everywhere I, when, like when I

practiced in Eastern Kentucky, domestic

917

:

violence, like everyone comes into the

courtroom and they just call the cases.

918

:

Yeah.

919

:

Hugh: That's different.

920

:

Domestic violence is different.

921

:

That's not a sealed docket.

922

:

True.

923

:

It's treated as No, no, no.

924

:

True confidential here.

925

:

But

926

:

Christine: so I used to sit in on all

of the dependency neglection, abuse

927

:

dockets when I was public defender.

928

:

'cause I was a juvenile public defender.

929

:

They were on, they were J cases,

they were on the same day.

930

:

We didn't have a family court.

931

:

I see.

932

:

So.

933

:

You would see.

934

:

You never had any of that.

935

:

Like they would call the cases

and it would be conference

936

:

during a conference time.

937

:

There wasn't that level of

ex parte that I ever saw.

938

:

Like even with private attorneys that

would come in, uh, where Louisville

939

:

is very different in that regard.

940

:

Louisville is very much like

this is a closed circuit.

941

:

We're not letting anybody

else in, in, in my experience,

942

:

Hugh: I, I can think of two other counties

where I've seen just the blatant ex

943

:

parte stuff, bullet, like where the,

maybe, maybe one, um, where the GAL on,

944

:

you know, three quarters of the cases

that I ever practice on would be, you

945

:

know, on breaks would be in the back,

hanging out with the judicial staff now.

946

:

Do I know that they're back

there talking about the case?

947

:

No, I don't.

948

:

Do I think that my client could ever

in a million years think the judge is,

949

:

um, fair is is objective on that case?

950

:

Mm-hmm.

951

:

And isn't speaking to an attorney who

represents a party in that case when they

952

:

both walk out together after each break?

953

:

No, it is just the, even just

the appearance is, was so bad.

954

:

So they're doing that on the

record, like your client saw it?

955

:

Oh, sure.

956

:

Well, it's not on the record 'cause we

haven't gone back on the record yet.

957

:

Yeah, you haven't pushed your buddy.

958

:

We're taking a break.

959

:

Everyone walks out.

960

:

Some people walk to the back

and I can think of, I know two

961

:

counties off the top of my head

where it was just regular practice.

962

:

A GS had maybe like a desk back

there with the staff attorney.

963

:

Yeah.

964

:

And they, it's almost like their judicial

staff and they're an attorney representing

965

:

the children regulated by the same rules.

966

:

And the judge has to treat them like

every other attorney on the case.

967

:

But I know that, that, you know, I,

I know that it's happening and I.

968

:

Frankly, it gets talked about enough.

969

:

I've had enough conversations with people

that have acted in that role, that talk

970

:

about how often they talk with the judge.

971

:

Christine: Well, that's another thing

that's concerning, is how often these,

972

:

uh, third parties, um, jails, FOCs will

say like, I mean, I had one blatantly

973

:

tell me, there's no way the judge is

gonna believe that person over me.

974

:

And I thought that is an

insane thing to say out loud.

975

:

Hugh: Do you know what I mean?

976

:

Oh, yeah.

977

:

But I mean, I, I can think of

a, a small handful of people,

978

:

one really in particular where

I know that that's the case.

979

:

The judge is just, I mean, it, the

same person that, uh, judge Gatewood in

980

:

the ad case ask, you know, basically,

you know, what are we doing here?

981

:

And they, you hear that same language.

982

:

So what are we doing here?

983

:

And then this one person that's

been appointed by the judge

984

:

says what we're doing here.

985

:

Christine: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

986

:

I've seen that on the record, but

I've never seen, I, it's bizarre

987

:

to say it like behind the scenes

988

:

Hugh: uhoh.

989

:

Uh, but I, I couldn't talk about cases and

without bringing up an anecdote about some

990

:

judges had done some something horrible.

991

:

I was carrying a huge grudge because of

I saw how it affected my clients Yeah.

992

:

And their children.

993

:

And the children they were taking

care of and, and how it did.

994

:

And I just, it consumed me.

995

:

It, it was just terrible.

996

:

Christine: Doesn't it bother you though?

997

:

Like, how many people are lawyers

that aren't willing to speak up?

998

:

Oh,

999

:

Hugh: oh, that kills me.

:

00:44:59,210 --> 00:45:03,470

I, there are attorneys that I have great

respect for their intellectual ability,

:

00:45:03,470 --> 00:45:04,970

their ability to practice, who have.

:

00:45:05,525 --> 00:45:08,345

Come to me and said, oh, you

know, I, I can't believe, I'm

:

00:45:08,345 --> 00:45:09,575

glad you filed that motion.

:

00:45:09,575 --> 00:45:12,095

I never could have would've

taken a judge on like that.

:

00:45:12,095 --> 00:45:14,705

'cause how, how would it affect,

you know, the next time you went

:

00:45:14,705 --> 00:45:15,875

in front of him and all of this.

:

00:45:15,875 --> 00:45:20,045

And I, and my response is always

like, I represent my client.

:

00:45:20,375 --> 00:45:20,525

Yeah.

:

00:45:20,585 --> 00:45:24,485

I can't, I can't not fight for my

client when a judge does something

:

00:45:24,485 --> 00:45:30,215

blatantly wrong and it costs my client

custody or hundreds of thousands of

:

00:45:30,215 --> 00:45:33,065

dollars and it's, it's vindictive.

:

00:45:33,815 --> 00:45:37,385

I am not allowed to say, well, the judge

will get mad at me if I do something

:

00:45:37,385 --> 00:45:40,775

about it and then sell my client out

by not speaking up and doing something.

:

00:45:40,775 --> 00:45:43,420

But I think that is not

practicing your case.

:

00:45:43,595 --> 00:45:45,785

And you're, you're violating

your duty as an attorney.

:

00:45:46,085 --> 00:45:46,895

Christine: A hundred percent.

:

00:45:46,895 --> 00:45:48,785

Like, it's like, did you

just hear yourself out loud?

:

00:45:48,785 --> 00:45:50,885

You said I wouldn't

advocate for my client.

:

00:45:50,975 --> 00:45:52,385

Yeah, because the judge is.

:

00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:53,870

Would get mad at me.

:

00:45:53,875 --> 00:45:54,755

Hugh: That's exactly right.

:

00:45:54,945 --> 00:45:55,760

Well, and that's what happened.

:

00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:56,540

Me, I wouldn't take on a judge.

:

00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:56,870

Christine: Yeah.

:

00:45:56,870 --> 00:45:59,900

I mean, that is 100% what

happened in my situation.

:

00:45:59,930 --> 00:46:05,360

And I still sometimes am just like shocked

at the whole, it was just so obvious, you

:

00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:09,050

know, that any attorney could realize that

situation could have happened to them,

:

00:46:09,950 --> 00:46:10,071

Hugh: you know?

:

00:46:10,076 --> 00:46:15,980

And, and I mean, I I will say

it was a much bigger deal the

:

00:46:15,980 --> 00:46:17,330

first time I had to do it.

:

00:46:17,425 --> 00:46:17,715

Yeah.

:

00:46:17,715 --> 00:46:18,396

Because, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

:

00:46:18,410 --> 00:46:23,030

I mean, when I was a young attorney and I

mean, my income to my family was critical.

:

00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:23,360

Yeah.

:

00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,600

And there was definitely going

to be a change in what cases I

:

00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:27,680

could take and what I couldn't.

:

00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:31,160

And it was before I had a practice

with, you know, 20 ish attorneys that

:

00:46:31,250 --> 00:46:35,360

I could shuffle cases around and I

could just not practice in front of

:

00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,090

a judge for a while and send someone

else in there, couldn't do that.

:

00:46:38,090 --> 00:46:41,390

It was like, you're not gonna make

any money on this percentage of cases.

:

00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:47,540

I, I mean, I've, it is not an easy

thing to have to do, but it is also.

:

00:46:48,245 --> 00:46:50,015

Very clear what is right and wrong.

:

00:46:50,135 --> 00:46:50,975

Murder is very clear.

:

00:46:50,975 --> 00:46:54,485

What I have to do in my duty to

my client doesn't mean it's easy.

:

00:46:54,725 --> 00:46:54,875

Christine: Yeah.

:

00:46:54,875 --> 00:46:57,575

I mean, I don't have children

obviously, and so I can't imagine

:

00:46:57,575 --> 00:47:02,825

I have the flexibility, um,

to not have that dependency.

:

00:47:02,825 --> 00:47:03,425

You know what I mean?

:

00:47:03,425 --> 00:47:06,965

So when I was done with it, I was just

like, I'm not gonna participate in this.

:

00:47:06,965 --> 00:47:10,295

And I, you know, it's hard to think

about from that standpoint, but I've

:

00:47:10,295 --> 00:47:13,295

always been of the mentality there

are more of us than there are them.

:

00:47:13,340 --> 00:47:15,155

I, I don't understand the fear

:

00:47:15,425 --> 00:47:15,545

Judge-y June 24 Content: Oh yeah.

:

00:47:15,665 --> 00:47:16,805

Christine: Of authority.

:

00:47:16,835 --> 00:47:20,345

Like these family court judges,

especially in Louisville, like, or

:

00:47:20,345 --> 00:47:21,995

even some of the judges in Louisville.

:

00:47:23,075 --> 00:47:24,275

I'm trying to think of

the best way to say this.

:

00:47:24,275 --> 00:47:26,285

I just wasn't raised to

be scared of lazy people.

:

00:47:27,605 --> 00:47:30,695

I mean, you, you should be scared

of some judges in Eastern Kentucky.

:

00:47:30,755 --> 00:47:31,085

Okay.

:

00:47:31,205 --> 00:47:32,255

I mean, they're hard workers.

:

00:47:32,285 --> 00:47:33,065

They're connected.

:

00:47:33,335 --> 00:47:35,465

There are systems there, there are things.

:

00:47:35,735 --> 00:47:38,135

But are you like scared?

:

00:47:38,435 --> 00:47:40,865

Uh, am I scared of any Louisville judge?

:

00:47:40,865 --> 00:47:41,255

No.

:

00:47:41,885 --> 00:47:42,125

No.

:

00:47:43,620 --> 00:47:43,910

Hugh: Like

:

00:47:43,915 --> 00:47:45,635

Christine: intellectually, physically,

:

00:47:45,695 --> 00:47:46,925

Hugh: I wasn't worried about that.

:

00:47:46,925 --> 00:47:52,325

I was worried and given how quickly

when I did it, how many people came

:

00:47:52,325 --> 00:47:55,355

out and said that they, you know, they

were glad I spoke out and they, the

:

00:47:55,355 --> 00:47:58,745

stories I heard, um, that people that

had been through the same thing mm-hmm.

:

00:47:59,045 --> 00:48:02,075

Even when I was, you know, much

younger attorney and I was just,

:

00:48:02,105 --> 00:48:04,925

just fighting for the biggest

client at the time I had ever had.

:

00:48:05,255 --> 00:48:05,555

Judge-y June 24 Content: Yeah.

:

00:48:05,615 --> 00:48:09,875

Hugh: I didn't realize, you know, that

this was going on and so often, and I

:

00:48:09,875 --> 00:48:12,155

think a lot of it isn't just out of fear.

:

00:48:12,155 --> 00:48:13,265

I think there's just complacency.

:

00:48:13,265 --> 00:48:13,355

Mm-hmm.

:

00:48:13,385 --> 00:48:17,345

I think it's, so much of it is this

is the system we practice in front of.

:

00:48:17,585 --> 00:48:21,545

If most of the judges are gonna do this

and this is just gonna keep happening.

:

00:48:21,605 --> 00:48:21,695

Yep.

:

00:48:22,685 --> 00:48:27,275

It just doesn't seem like to me,

maybe I was way too idealistic.

:

00:48:27,335 --> 00:48:34,860

Um, and the previous crop of judges,

we did have some people that I.

:

00:48:35,645 --> 00:48:38,345

They seemed like the judge that's in

your head when you're in law school.

:

00:48:38,350 --> 00:48:38,370

Yeah.

:

00:48:38,405 --> 00:48:38,465

Yeah.

:

00:48:38,465 --> 00:48:40,715

But when that stays above it

all, everybody has their quirks,

:

00:48:40,715 --> 00:48:41,825

everyone has their issues.

:

00:48:42,035 --> 00:48:47,345

But you came in and you came in with

res, you treated the judge with respect.

:

00:48:47,345 --> 00:48:49,895

The judges treated everyone

else with the respect.

:

00:48:49,895 --> 00:48:56,225

Like you could have been having a

conversation, you know, you could have run

:

00:48:56,225 --> 00:48:59,945

into each other at the lobby and just been

shooting the crap about something that

:

00:48:59,945 --> 00:49:01,475

you're both interested in or be friends.

:

00:49:01,475 --> 00:49:03,125

But when you walked in

that courtroom mm-hmm.

:

00:49:03,425 --> 00:49:06,785

It was very formal and

all of that went away.

:

00:49:06,785 --> 00:49:11,795

And that was just when you saw a judge

do something as a favor to someone

:

00:49:11,795 --> 00:49:17,285

else, ex parte completely against the

rules, it seemed like it was just this

:

00:49:17,285 --> 00:49:20,735

shining error that had to be addressed.

:

00:49:20,735 --> 00:49:20,795

Yeah.

:

00:49:20,795 --> 00:49:22,205

And I think that nowadays.

:

00:49:23,525 --> 00:49:26,795

How many, how many things have you

heard in the last 48 hours that

:

00:49:26,795 --> 00:49:29,105

people have told you that this

is going on or that's going on?

:

00:49:29,105 --> 00:49:33,095

How many emails have we received where

people just outline the, oh, this

:

00:49:33,095 --> 00:49:34,685

happened yesterday or the day before?

:

00:49:34,865 --> 00:49:37,955

This is just part of the system and I

think the attorneys see it so often.

:

00:49:37,955 --> 00:49:41,255

It just becomes something you have

to account for, something you just

:

00:49:41,255 --> 00:49:43,205

have to tell your client about.

:

00:49:43,295 --> 00:49:47,435

Um, back before, and you stopped

practicing, um, when they still

:

00:49:47,435 --> 00:49:50,255

did assignment in Jefferson County

of Cases based on last name.

:

00:49:50,255 --> 00:49:50,345

Yes.

:

00:49:50,615 --> 00:49:53,225

So you could sit down at

an initial meeting and say,

:

00:49:53,225 --> 00:49:54,215

okay, your last name is this.

:

00:49:54,215 --> 00:49:55,445

Here's who you're gonna be in front of.

:

00:49:55,505 --> 00:49:55,595

Oh yeah.

:

00:49:55,655 --> 00:49:57,005

Here's how your case is gonna go.

:

00:49:57,305 --> 00:50:02,555

When that went away, oh man, that

was the, the, my consultations had to

:

00:50:02,555 --> 00:50:05,735

be longer because I would say, okay,

this kind of case, if you end up over

:

00:50:05,735 --> 00:50:07,355

here, here's how I could see it going.

:

00:50:07,415 --> 00:50:10,355

If you end up here, we're not ever

going inside the courtroom and

:

00:50:10,355 --> 00:50:14,255

it's worth spending some money

to, to settle on something, to

:

00:50:14,255 --> 00:50:15,455

not go in front of this judge.

:

00:50:15,695 --> 00:50:17,885

And, but I don't know which one

you're gonna be in front of.

:

00:50:17,885 --> 00:50:19,595

It became so much harder.

:

00:50:20,210 --> 00:50:23,210

But that's only because we just

accepted it as part of the system.

:

00:50:23,210 --> 00:50:23,270

Yeah.

:

00:50:23,270 --> 00:50:25,130

It's some part of what we had to navigate,

:

00:50:25,130 --> 00:50:25,580

Christine: so, okay.

:

00:50:25,580 --> 00:50:29,390

I have no idea because I, in

Louisville, which the other county

:

00:50:29,390 --> 00:50:32,510

judges would get mad about this,

but it was always the mom's last

:

00:50:32,510 --> 00:50:34,280

name is how your divorce was filed.

:

00:50:34,550 --> 00:50:34,610

Hugh: Yeah.

:

00:50:34,610 --> 00:50:37,640

And then there's some new rules that

came in after Obergefell and Yeah.

:

00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:39,500

And we were divorcing people

of same gendered couples.

:

00:50:39,500 --> 00:50:39,830

Oh, for sure.

:

00:50:39,830 --> 00:50:40,610

It was the petitioner.

:

00:50:40,610 --> 00:50:40,880

Christine: Yeah.

:

00:50:40,895 --> 00:50:41,095

Yeah.

:

00:50:41,095 --> 00:50:41,295

Hugh: Yeah.

:

00:50:41,300 --> 00:50:46,040

Christine: Um, but when it changed,

like, and you, so when you go in and

:

00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:49,310

you get hired, you know, we fi we file

the petitioner, we draft everything

:

00:50:49,310 --> 00:50:51,950

up, and then you go to court net and

you hit that click button, right?

:

00:50:51,950 --> 00:50:52,010

Yeah.

:

00:50:52,310 --> 00:50:55,010

Do you get assigned that second

or is it like the next day?

:

00:50:56,180 --> 00:50:56,780

Hugh: I don't know.

:

00:50:56,815 --> 00:50:57,405

I, oh, you have asked.

:

00:50:57,525 --> 00:51:02,235

I'm embarrassed to say that I

haven't filed a case in many years.

:

00:51:02,235 --> 00:51:06,135

I believe that it creates an envelope,

uhhuh, it doesn't get assigned

:

00:51:06,135 --> 00:51:10,995

immediately, but then you know how,

uh, you file, uh, pleadings, you'll

:

00:51:10,995 --> 00:51:14,475

pretty quickly get something out

that says it's been accepted or

:

00:51:14,595 --> 00:51:18,945

there's something similar with your

case and it'll have a file stamped.

:

00:51:19,635 --> 00:51:22,065

Copy that you can download of

all the pleadings that you filed

:

00:51:22,065 --> 00:51:23,175

at the initial part of the case.

:

00:51:23,175 --> 00:51:24,195

And it has the division on it.

:

00:51:24,195 --> 00:51:27,075

So we knew, I knew very

quickly, quickly, okay.

:

00:51:27,075 --> 00:51:32,025

Uh, we had it, we had flagged who

we got in front of and it was part

:

00:51:32,025 --> 00:51:34,425

of the scuttlebutt in the office

that if you had a case that had a

:

00:51:34,425 --> 00:51:38,985

specific issue and everyone knew it

would be, you're gonna be in for it.

:

00:51:38,985 --> 00:51:42,255

If we get run into this division,

everyone was talking about it.

:

00:51:42,255 --> 00:51:45,285

I, I would always find out, 'cause

I'd hear some people in my office

:

00:51:45,285 --> 00:51:47,910

talking about, oh my gosh, I can't

believe we got this judge on the stage.

:

00:51:47,950 --> 00:51:48,190

I could just

:

00:51:48,190 --> 00:51:51,465

Christine: hear the curse words coming

outta my mouth if I filed like a divorce,

:

00:51:51,735 --> 00:51:55,395

you know, low asset divorce and you drew

division seven, like, I'd have to get out.

:

00:51:57,110 --> 00:51:57,585

I don't know.

:

00:51:57,585 --> 00:51:58,270

I need to look into that.

:

00:51:58,815 --> 00:52:04,065

Hugh: I, uh, yeah, I, there are certain

ones that if we were going to have to try

:

00:52:04,065 --> 00:52:10,305

more complex issues and want to really

put a lot of evidence in and have the

:

00:52:10,305 --> 00:52:14,265

judge rule on the evidence and establish

a good record, there's certain judges

:

00:52:14,265 --> 00:52:17,385

I'd wanna be in front of, even if they

were things that they did that I think.

:

00:52:17,860 --> 00:52:21,490

I appreciate if you, I don't have to wait

six months for a hearing and I can get

:

00:52:21,490 --> 00:52:24,760

into front of you very quickly, but I

also don't wanna have to argue in front of

:

00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:26,620

someone that's just going to yell at me.

:

00:52:26,740 --> 00:52:27,100

Christine: I don't know.

:

00:52:27,100 --> 00:52:28,840

I think when you're two years

outta that too, it's like

:

00:52:28,870 --> 00:52:31,390

your job is to hear my case.

:

00:52:31,450 --> 00:52:31,510

Yeah.

:

00:52:31,510 --> 00:52:34,300

Your job is to hear my

case and all of the things.

:

00:52:34,300 --> 00:52:35,560

You gotta buy circuit time.

:

00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:36,310

You've gotta do this.

:

00:52:36,310 --> 00:52:39,820

Why do you wanna be a judge if you

don't want to adjudicate the case?

:

00:52:39,820 --> 00:52:43,180

Like sometimes I wonder why they

want us to settle so badly now.

:

00:52:43,180 --> 00:52:46,300

Not that I don't think you should

settle as opposed to going to court.

:

00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:50,110

But like, don't they like, like the law

:

00:52:50,710 --> 00:52:51,460

Hugh: know, like if you were judge,

:

00:52:51,460 --> 00:52:53,020

Christine: wouldn't you wanna be in court?

:

00:52:53,020 --> 00:52:54,340

Hugh: Some judges hate having hearings.

:

00:52:54,345 --> 00:52:54,465

Wow.

:

00:52:54,470 --> 00:52:56,470

And it's so obvious they will put it off.

:

00:52:56,470 --> 00:52:58,540

Anybody has the slightest thing.

:

00:52:58,540 --> 00:52:59,440

Well, I have a conflict.

:

00:52:59,440 --> 00:52:59,980

I'm trying to move.

:

00:52:59,980 --> 00:53:04,000

Well, I think you might not be able

to move it, so maybe we should just go

:

00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:07,840

ahead and reschedule and just like having

do, that's not how continuances work.

:

00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:07,900

Yeah.

:

00:53:07,900 --> 00:53:08,830

There are rules.

:

00:53:08,950 --> 00:53:10,240

There are things that have to happen.

:

00:53:10,270 --> 00:53:13,690

Quit having, uh, hearings and,

and there was one in particular

:

00:53:13,690 --> 00:53:15,190

in the, in our last, uh.

:

00:53:16,465 --> 00:53:20,605

You know, I say crop of judges that

the, the judges that are were before the

:

00:53:20,605 --> 00:53:25,435

judges that are currently on the bench,

who would just, everyone would get there.

:

00:53:25,435 --> 00:53:26,455

It would be for a trial.

:

00:53:26,485 --> 00:53:28,345

You might've been fighting

over these issues.

:

00:53:28,615 --> 00:53:30,085

You might've had two or three hearings.

:

00:53:30,085 --> 00:53:30,925

You can't resolve 'em.

:

00:53:30,925 --> 00:53:31,615

You've had Yeah.

:

00:53:31,615 --> 00:53:33,505

Mediations, you've had

settlement conferences.

:

00:53:34,195 --> 00:53:38,065

You were there to try it because

the courts for any reasonable

:

00:53:38,065 --> 00:53:41,155

people are a place of last resort.

:

00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:41,341

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

:

00:53:41,346 --> 00:53:44,665

If you can settle your stuff and

handle things like a responsible

:

00:53:44,665 --> 00:53:48,775

human, uh, if you can get two

responsible, rational human beings,

:

00:53:48,775 --> 00:53:50,335

they shouldn't have to be in court.

:

00:53:50,335 --> 00:53:50,425

Right.

:

00:53:50,425 --> 00:53:54,265

There's a reason why something's

happening, or every now and then, everyone

:

00:53:54,265 --> 00:53:56,845

is calm and rational and you just have

an interesting legal issue mm-hmm.

:

00:53:57,085 --> 00:53:57,865

That no one knows.

:

00:53:58,285 --> 00:53:59,155

But that's rare.

:

00:53:59,605 --> 00:54:02,905

These people were in court 'cause they

were never going to get this settled.

:

00:54:03,205 --> 00:54:04,675

And it happened time and time again.

:

00:54:04,675 --> 00:54:09,295

This judge would always call counsel in

to chambers and there's nothing wrong with

:

00:54:09,295 --> 00:54:10,705

it because they're talking to everybody.

:

00:54:11,005 --> 00:54:11,095

Yeah.

:

00:54:11,095 --> 00:54:11,155

Yeah.

:

00:54:11,155 --> 00:54:11,545

Um.

:

00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:13,990

And, and not saying there's

anything wrong with that, but it

:

00:54:13,990 --> 00:54:16,750

was just strong arm into settling.

:

00:54:16,750 --> 00:54:20,140

And I practiced in, uh, federal

court when I first moved, uh,

:

00:54:20,140 --> 00:54:22,270

to Louisville in, in:

:

00:54:22,540 --> 00:54:23,530

And they would do the same thing.

:

00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:26,350

They'd sit down, why are we having

this, why are we having this hearing?

:

00:54:26,350 --> 00:54:28,540

Why are we gonna have to

call a jury on this issue?

:

00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:29,470

Here are the numbers.

:

00:54:29,470 --> 00:54:33,130

I think it's probably worth now the jury's

gonna make a decision later, but maybe

:

00:54:33,130 --> 00:54:34,270

you should go get your case settled.

:

00:54:34,660 --> 00:54:36,310

And it was effective.

:

00:54:36,370 --> 00:54:36,460

Mm-hmm.

:

00:54:36,460 --> 00:54:36,940

It worked.

:

00:54:36,970 --> 00:54:38,050

They didn't have any say.

:

00:54:38,110 --> 00:54:41,830

They couldn't actually decide that,

but they had an interest in freeing

:

00:54:41,830 --> 00:54:43,540

their docket up and they could look.

:

00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:48,010

And, you know, sometimes I think

a judge can see the bigger picture

:

00:54:48,010 --> 00:54:52,390

than I know when I was, um, a

litigant, it was hard for me to step

:

00:54:52,390 --> 00:54:53,500

back and see the bigger picture.

:

00:54:53,500 --> 00:54:56,410

One of the things I loved about

working as on a team of people, I

:

00:54:56,410 --> 00:54:58,810

had people that were not down in

the weeds of a case and could tell

:

00:54:58,810 --> 00:55:00,430

me, maybe I'm getting lost on this.

:

00:55:00,490 --> 00:55:00,670

Yeah.

:

00:55:00,670 --> 00:55:01,960

And I need to, I need to step back.

:

00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:02,770

I think sometimes.

:

00:55:03,100 --> 00:55:06,700

The judge has that role, but there are

some of them that just do it all the time.

:

00:55:06,700 --> 00:55:09,700

'cause they never want to have to

sit there and sit through a hearing.

:

00:55:09,730 --> 00:55:11,500

And at least that's my opinion.

:

00:55:11,710 --> 00:55:16,120

But it becomes so clear that you just

don't wanna make a decision on this.

:

00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:17,560

You don't want to hear it out.

:

00:55:17,860 --> 00:55:18,040

Christine: Yeah.

:

00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:21,220

And I think, um, just like our family

court releases their docket, like our

:

00:55:21,220 --> 00:55:23,080

district court judges won't even do that.

:

00:55:23,350 --> 00:55:28,030

I think, there may be hell on,

there's no one on the bench right now.

:

00:55:28,030 --> 00:55:31,000

It's probably four o'clock, so everybody's

been home for two hours, allegedly.

:

00:55:31,300 --> 00:55:37,030

But, I digress when I pull, I've been

pulling all of the weekly dockets and

:

00:55:37,030 --> 00:55:39,400

I've gone to see when the hearings

are scheduled and then you go to court

:

00:55:39,430 --> 00:55:40,960

net to see if there was a hearing.

:

00:55:41,050 --> 00:55:41,350

Judge-y June 24 Content: Sure.

:

00:55:41,650 --> 00:55:43,810

Christine: How many times do you

think those hearings were resolved?

:

00:55:45,220 --> 00:55:46,000

A lot.

:

00:55:46,510 --> 00:55:49,180

but I think they do it to just

be like, Hey, I'm working.

:

00:55:49,180 --> 00:55:53,800

Like I found one that was submitted by

an agreed order like three weeks prior

:

00:55:53,830 --> 00:55:55,450

and it was still like a half day trial.

:

00:55:55,510 --> 00:55:56,380

Hugh: It's still on the calendar.

:

00:55:56,665 --> 00:55:59,830

yeah, Now I, to be fair, there, I have.

:

00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:05,050

There's been a couple judges that I've

talked to, man, it's been a while, but it

:

00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:11,290

judges that I practiced in front of,

earlier in my career, you spent a lot

:

00:56:11,290 --> 00:56:14,200

of time in chambers and they would

sit down with both attorneys and

:

00:56:14,410 --> 00:56:17,920

you would have conversations and you

would try to work things out and the

:

00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:20,680

judge would want to get an idea of

what the issues were before going in.

:

00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:26,290

I thought it was really helpful because

you felt you didn't have to start the

:

00:56:26,290 --> 00:56:30,400

big picture and spell out the issues for

the judge, which if the judge, I mean

:

00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:34,270

as a smart practitioner, you're going to

start high level and then work into the

:

00:56:34,270 --> 00:56:39,310

details, but it, you get limited time

and family court, you are supposed to

:

00:56:39,310 --> 00:56:41,560

get half the time, the allotted time.

:

00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:46,720

So if a judge brought us in and we could

get to the chase, cut to the chase and

:

00:56:46,720 --> 00:56:49,660

their whole role was to go in there and

you put on the factual evidence and make

:

00:56:49,660 --> 00:56:51,820

your argument, I always appreciated that.

:

00:56:52,450 --> 00:56:53,980

I was surprised.

:

00:56:54,610 --> 00:56:58,120

in the past when we would get

things settled, the judge,

:

00:56:58,450 --> 00:56:59,500

the judges would be like.

:

00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:01,150

That's fantastic.

:

00:57:01,180 --> 00:57:05,200

I'm gonna leave it on the docket

because I am so backed up with

:

00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:06,400

orders, getting orders out.

:

00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:10,780

So I know some of them would just leave

it blocked off to get their work done.

:

00:57:11,470 --> 00:57:13,120

I didn't really have a problem on No.

:

00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:14,740

'cause I was probably waiting

:

00:57:14,965 --> 00:57:15,490

Christine: Nope, nope.

:

00:57:15,580 --> 00:57:16,090

Waiting for

:

00:57:16,090 --> 00:57:16,510

Hugh: orders.

:

00:57:16,510 --> 00:57:16,870

But also

:

00:57:17,950 --> 00:57:19,810

Christine: you work for

me, you are a taxpayer.

:

00:57:19,810 --> 00:57:23,140

I wanna know how often

you're in court, period.

:

00:57:23,140 --> 00:57:23,200

Yeah,

:

00:57:23,500 --> 00:57:28,060

Hugh: I, think, I, can't say I disagree

with you on it, but I did see them

:

00:57:29,020 --> 00:57:31,360

getting caught up, whereas they

could have taken it off the docket

:

00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:34,690

and just, they have control in the

ability to not schedule anything.

:

00:57:34,690 --> 00:57:38,320

They could have just done it in a

different way, but a lot of them I know.

:

00:57:39,430 --> 00:57:40,030

So

:

00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:47,440

in the latter years of my career, I

was getting involved more and more

:

00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:51,610

on some of the confidential cases or

I would have confidential cases that

:

00:57:51,610 --> 00:57:53,320

were, because they were high profile.

:

00:57:53,905 --> 00:57:56,275

They were sealed, whether

they should have been or not.

:

00:57:56,575 --> 00:58:00,955

my, my opinion as a member of the public

is different than as an advocate for one

:

00:58:00,955 --> 00:58:02,755

of the sides, and it has to be right.

:

00:58:03,415 --> 00:58:10,135

but I pretty regularly had to go over,

to the court to get a judge to sign

:

00:58:10,135 --> 00:58:11,905

something to allow me to see a case file.

:

00:58:12,235 --> 00:58:17,545

So we regularly, as There is a form, it's

an order that goes into the case that

:

00:58:17,545 --> 00:58:19,915

says this person and would name my name.

:

00:58:19,915 --> 00:58:22,225

I would fill it out the

affidavit and, sign it.

:

00:58:22,225 --> 00:58:24,565

And then the judge would sign it

as an order and it would say, I

:

00:58:24,565 --> 00:58:27,805

have an interest that should allow

me to examine that case file.

:

00:58:27,805 --> 00:58:30,745

And it may not allow me to take any

of it or copy it or do anything else,

:

00:58:30,745 --> 00:58:34,525

but that either someone's retained

me or I have an interest in it.

:

00:58:34,765 --> 00:58:37,075

And I would have to go looking

for a, just to do that.

:

00:58:37,555 --> 00:58:41,275

And how many times I went around and

I could see what was on the door.

:

00:58:41,335 --> 00:58:41,455

Yeah.

:

00:58:41,455 --> 00:58:44,125

And they would have their dockets

posted and there would be a hearing,

:

00:58:44,455 --> 00:58:46,855

and there that door would be

locked, the lights would be off.

:

00:58:46,855 --> 00:58:47,605

It was clear.

:

00:58:47,605 --> 00:58:48,385

There's no hearing.

:

00:58:48,721 --> 00:58:52,585

Now, did it cancel right before I.

:

00:58:53,335 --> 00:58:54,535

We canceled hearings.

:

00:58:54,535 --> 00:58:58,405

We, cases settle right before, so

some of those times, I'm sure it

:

00:58:58,405 --> 00:59:01,045

canceled right before, and they

had printed that thing out the day

:

00:59:01,045 --> 00:59:03,775

before, but there's nobody there.

:

00:59:03,780 --> 00:59:06,295

But the thing is, and I couldn't

find, yeah, I would have to go on

:

00:59:06,295 --> 00:59:09,595

all, every single time, unless I got

lucky, I'd have to go at least on

:

00:59:09,595 --> 00:59:13,375

ev all three floors looking for one

judge to be there on an afternoon.

:

00:59:14,965 --> 00:59:17,005

Christine: they have police,

there's law enforcement that are

:

00:59:17,005 --> 00:59:19,975

trying to get warrants signed

and signed in district court.

:

00:59:19,975 --> 00:59:20,665

And there's no one,

:

00:59:20,665 --> 00:59:21,475

Hugh: there's just nobody there.

:

00:59:22,885 --> 00:59:25,195

I'm not familiar with how,

it is in district court.

:

00:59:25,195 --> 00:59:29,065

It was, oh, our local district

court, wa practice was just a

:

00:59:29,515 --> 00:59:30,685

standard protect practitioner.

:

00:59:30,775 --> 00:59:33,715

You had your nine o'clock rounds,

you went and did your cases at nine,

:

00:59:33,895 --> 00:59:37,345

you did your one o'clock, and you

were gone way before the, workday

:

00:59:37,345 --> 00:59:39,925

closed over there and you were back

at your office doing other things.

:

00:59:39,925 --> 00:59:44,425

So I rarely, if ever had

to find judges over there.

:

00:59:46,225 --> 00:59:49,735

I can't even think of circumstances

where I had to actually find judges.

:

00:59:49,945 --> 00:59:53,065

Christine: I think that's what, like

judgey talking about why we're doing this.

:

00:59:53,215 --> 00:59:56,665

I think judgey can just go to

court and see if it's Tuesday,

:

00:59:56,665 --> 00:59:57,835

let's pick a time for next week.

:

00:59:57,835 --> 00:59:58,285

Tuesday.

:

00:59:58,285 --> 01:00:00,505

Pick a time during the

workday, not during lunch.

:

01:00:00,565 --> 01:00:01,315

You pick one random day.

:

01:00:01,315 --> 01:00:01,495

Oh, just

:

01:00:01,495 --> 01:00:02,455

Hugh: like one 30.

:

01:00:02,455 --> 01:00:02,515

Yeah.

:

01:00:02,605 --> 01:00:02,815

Christine: Okay.

:

01:00:02,815 --> 01:00:04,495

It was 1:30 PM on a Tuesday.

:

01:00:04,765 --> 01:00:07,015

Let's go to the courthouse.

:

01:00:07,195 --> 01:00:11,395

So you was there and let's see how many

of the 37, 39 judges there are, right?

:

01:00:11,575 --> 01:00:11,785

Wait.

:

01:00:11,785 --> 01:00:12,985

13, 10.

:

01:00:13,435 --> 01:00:14,125

16, right.

:

01:00:14,155 --> 01:00:14,575

39.

:

01:00:14,905 --> 01:00:15,085

Hugh: Yep.

:

01:00:15,385 --> 01:00:16,105

Christine: How many do you think?

:

01:00:16,105 --> 01:00:16,495

Let's make a bet.

:

01:00:17,785 --> 01:00:18,295

Hugh: Oh gosh.

:

01:00:21,955 --> 01:00:25,795

my experiences with family court

and maybe it's the same across you.

:

01:00:27,025 --> 01:00:30,175

I always, am naive enough to think,

oh, it's better in other, courts.

:

01:00:30,175 --> 01:00:33,625

And then when I practice in front of

them, I realize this is just how it works.

:

01:00:34,165 --> 01:00:38,575

other counties too, other jurisdictions,

I, practice in multiple, states.

:

01:00:39,025 --> 01:00:39,085

I.

:

01:00:39,100 --> 01:00:43,630

I, but I, yeah, I, if I was gonna

base it on the percentage I would

:

01:00:43,630 --> 01:00:45,700

think in, family court, I'd say,

:

01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:52,990

oh man, at one o'clock on a one 30

Tuesday, one 30 is early enough.

:

01:00:53,740 --> 01:00:55,630

Christine: How sad is this

whole conversation right now?

:

01:00:55,630 --> 01:00:55,750

Oh, I

:

01:00:55,750 --> 01:00:57,820

Hugh: know, but I would say between 50 and

:

01:00:57,820 --> 01:00:59,080

Christine: 60%.

:

01:00:59,140 --> 01:01:01,765

Hugh: If you got up to three 30

or four and you asked me it would

:

01:01:01,765 --> 01:01:03,100

be a totally different number.

:

01:01:03,310 --> 01:01:06,010

Christine: I think we need to give them

like some grace, so we need to just pick a

:

01:01:06,010 --> 01:01:09,400

time and then go, like at different weeks.

:

01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:15,580

But I would say that I would bet

of the 39 judges, I would say,

:

01:01:15,610 --> 01:01:18,100

because it is a Tuesday, so if you

get into Wednesdays, Thursdays and

:

01:01:18,100 --> 01:01:19,390

Fridays too, you're gonna have less

:

01:01:19,395 --> 01:01:22,060

Hugh: Friday, let's say

Friday at three o'clock.

:

01:01:23,050 --> 01:01:24,370

Christine: four judges maybe.

:

01:01:24,610 --> 01:01:26,950

I would say that there'll be

12 judges at the courthouse

:

01:01:27,910 --> 01:01:29,050

Hugh: at one 30 on a Tuesday.

:

01:01:29,596 --> 01:01:30,850

Oh, I think I'd take that bet.

:

01:01:31,090 --> 01:01:31,720

Christine: You think more

:

01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:33,100

Hugh: I do, but I.

:

01:01:37,020 --> 01:01:38,575

I don't know that I'd

bet a lot of money on it.

:

01:01:38,700 --> 01:01:38,725

I was

:

01:01:38,725 --> 01:01:40,435

Christine: just say,

yeah, we can bet a beer.

:

01:01:40,900 --> 01:01:41,635

I think this will be fun.

:

01:01:41,755 --> 01:01:44,635

I think this is the kind of stuff

though that judges should do because

:

01:01:44,635 --> 01:01:46,105

what if you, what if I'm crazy?

:

01:01:46,105 --> 01:01:46,615

You know what?

:

01:01:46,615 --> 01:01:49,140

If you're crazy and these judges

are working 60 hours a week, let's,

:

01:01:49,140 --> 01:01:49,795

and they're at the courthouse.

:

01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:50,260

Let, that's what I mean.

:

01:01:50,260 --> 01:01:50,262

Let see.

:

01:01:50,365 --> 01:01:50,485

And

:

01:01:50,485 --> 01:01:50,545

Hugh: if

:

01:01:51,325 --> 01:01:51,475

Christine: we're

:

01:01:51,475 --> 01:01:53,500

Hugh: wrong, then let's report it

and let's tell everyone I apologize.

:

01:01:53,500 --> 01:01:53,740

Like

:

01:01:53,935 --> 01:01:56,245

Christine: I will apologize

until the cows come in.

:

01:01:56,545 --> 01:01:56,965

Hugh: I agree.

:

01:01:57,625 --> 01:02:03,385

and frankly, if you're not there and

all of your orders are out, and as a

:

01:02:03,385 --> 01:02:06,235

practitioner, I've gotten everything

back that I should have and you've

:

01:02:06,235 --> 01:02:08,605

completed your hearing and you want

to give your staff the afternoon

:

01:02:08,605 --> 01:02:09,685

off and be nice and you're gone.

:

01:02:10,855 --> 01:02:13,525

You may not be doing what you're

supposed to be doing, but I don't

:

01:02:13,525 --> 01:02:14,905

know that I've got a problem with it.

:

01:02:14,905 --> 01:02:15,055

I agree.

:

01:02:15,205 --> 01:02:20,635

My issue is if you are a judge and I've

been waiting eight months for something,

:

01:02:20,935 --> 01:02:24,295

And a kid can't, we can't get a kid

enrolled for medical care or something.

:

01:02:24,295 --> 01:02:25,345

We've been waiting eight months.

:

01:02:25,690 --> 01:02:27,730

And I cannot find you.

:

01:02:28,180 --> 01:02:29,170

No matter what.

:

01:02:29,350 --> 01:02:31,450

And we cannot get a hearing

in front of you for a month

:

01:02:31,450 --> 01:02:33,580

and you're just not at work.

:

01:02:34,690 --> 01:02:35,830

that's a huge problem.

:

01:02:35,830 --> 01:02:35,920

Huge.

:

01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:40,690

It's a huge failure of what, the

public, of their service to the public.

:

01:02:40,870 --> 01:02:41,710

Christine: Oh, this is gonna be fun.

:

01:02:42,190 --> 01:02:42,610

Okay.

:

01:02:42,970 --> 01:02:43,240

All right.

:

01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:45,220

Well, I feel like we should

be at a wrap for today.

:

01:02:47,110 --> 01:02:48,700

Hugh: Getting ourselves deeper

and deeper into trouble.

Next Episode All Episodes

Listen for free

Show artwork for The JudgeMental Podcast

About the Podcast

The JudgeMental Podcast
From the Creators of Judge-y
The JudgeMental Podcast features two attorneys, Hugh and Christine, who bring over three decades of combined litigation experience to the mic. Now venturing into a bold new initiative—"Judge-y", a website and soon-to-be app—they aim to give lawyers and litigants a platform to evaluate judges and promote accountability within the judiciary.

About your host

Profile picture for Hugh Barrow

Hugh Barrow