EP 06 Dressing Down

The JudgeMental Podcast – Episode 06

Title: Dressing Down

Hosts: Hugh & Christine

Episode Summary:

In this candid episode of The JudgeMental Podcast, hosts Hugh and Christine—two seasoned attorneys and the minds behind Judgy—dive deep into the world of judicial accountability. They break down viral clips of judges on social media, share personal stories from their combined 30 years in law, and discuss the real reasons they both left the legal profession.

Key Topics:

Viral courtroom moments: Analyzing a judge’s public apology after an outburst and what it reveals about courtroom culture.
The power dynamic in court: How judges’ behavior impacts attorneys, clients, and the public’s trust in the system.
Behind the scenes: Hugh and Christine’s personal journeys, including the emotional toll of practicing law and the breaking points that led them to leave.
Systemic issues: The role of FOCs (Friend of the Court), GALs (Guardian ad Litem), and the need for reform in family court.
Social media & accountability: The impact of judges’ online presence and the importance of transparency.
How to navigate difficult courtroom situations and advocate for change.

Notable Moments:

Christine’s passionate response to judicial misconduct and the lack of accountability.
Hugh’s reflections on empathy, professionalism, and the changing culture of the courts.
Real-life stories of courtroom drama, from viral TikTok judges to questionable rulings.
A call for listeners to share their own stories and viral clips for future episodes.

Call to Action:

Have a viral lawyer or judge video you want analyzed? Tag @judgey_judge_y on TikTok or visit judgey-judge-y.com to submit your clips and stories.

Connect with Us:

Website: judgey-judge-y.com
TikTok: @judgey_judge_y

Thank you for listening!

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and leave a review. Your support helps us shine a light on the need for transparency and reform in our courts.

The JudgeMental Podcast: Where sharp insights, candid critiques, and unshakable honesty meet the fight for a better justice system.

Transcript

Speaker: 00:00:00

You are listening to

The Judgemental Podcast.

: 00:00:03

We're Hugh and Christine, the Minds

Behind Judgy, the revolutionary app

: 00:00:06

that empowers you to judge the judges.

: 00:00:08

It's pastime for judicial accountability

and transparency within the courts.

: 00:00:13

Prepare for sharp insights, candid

critiques, and unshakable honesty from

: 00:00:16

two lawyers determined to save the system.

: 00:00:18

We need some justice.

: 00:00:19

Justice, my fine justice.

: 00:00:21

And I wanna ring, be in public.

: 00:00:23

I wanna ring, be in public crowd.

: 00:00:25

Yeah.

: 00:00:27

Christine: All right, y'all.

: 00:00:28

Welcome to the Judgmental podcast.

: 00:00:30

We are going to talk about the viral clips

of the week from judges on social media.

: 00:00:35

We're gonna talk about why both of us,

Hugh and I left the practice of law

: 00:00:39

after 30 years combined between us.

: 00:00:43

We're also gonna give some advice

for how to deal with these judges.

: 00:00:46

Not legal advice, but just kind of

how to conduct yourself in court.

: 00:00:49

Thank you so much for tuning in.

: 00:00:51

You wanna jump right into the

judge that snapped at the old guy?

: 00:00:54

Hugh: Yeah.

: 00:00:54

Well, first I wanna say yeah, thanks

for tuning in and for content ideas.

: 00:00:58

We'd like to hear from you guys.

: 00:01:00

Please what you want us to cover,

what types of things related to

: 00:01:03

court judges, those types of things.

: 00:01:05

We wanna make sure we hit content

that people are looking for.

: 00:01:09

Also shout out to three Floyd's

Brewery for a phenomenal beer.

: 00:01:14

Drinking a gumball head today.

: 00:01:15

Christine: So it's been

one of those days here.

: 00:01:17

I'm sitting here sipping my ice tea, but.

: 00:01:19

Hugh was ready to inbibe Yeah.

: 00:01:21

And I'm Jelly

: 00:01:21

Hugh: needed, needed to.

: 00:01:22

Christine: Mm-hmm.

: 00:01:23

/ Your Honor, sir, let me answer

the ques, ask the questions.

: 00:01:26

All right, sir, you're finding

yourself very close to contempt.

: 00:01:29

I'm sorry, Mr.

: 00:01:31

Erkin, why are you not here?

: 00:01:33

Your Honor, I received the

court notice yesterday.

: 00:01:38

When did you receive

notice of today's hearing?

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Yesterday in the afternoon?

: 00:01:42

No, on paper.

: 00:01:44

When did you receive it?

: 00:01:47

Receive what?

: 00:01:47

Your Honor.

: 00:01:48

Good God.

: 00:01:49

When did you receive on paper

the notice of today's hearing?

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There's nothing, I have not received

anything on paper of today's hearing.

: 00:01:58

Then how did you know to call my

staff yesterday and tell them that

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you were going to appear by Zoom?

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That's correct.

: 00:02:06

Alright babe.

: 00:02:08

But before you do that, why don't

you go ahead and have a seat?

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'cause I, I wanna address something else.

: 00:02:12

I need to apologize to you

for my behavior of last week.

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Uh, it was very unprofessional to

me and you did not deserve that.

: 00:02:19

Uh, so I sincerely apologize.

: 00:02:21

I truly let my temper get the best of

me, your honor, judge, that's fine.

: 00:02:25

We all make mistakes.

: 00:02:27

Hugh: in my experience was not frequent,

but was also not unheard of, where a

: 00:02:34

judge would get very frustrated with

someone and they're not getting the

: 00:02:39

answer that they want, even though

the person is telling the truth.

: 00:02:42

We have an attorney who did not get any

kind of written notice of a hearing,

: 00:02:46

Christine: allegedly,

: 00:02:47

Hugh: allegedly who shows up to a

hearing because allegedly they, they

: 00:02:53

received some sort of tip off from

someone that a hearing was taking

: 00:02:56

place, showed up, and the judge was very

frustrated and the judge just acted very

: 00:03:03

unprofessionally and yelled and acted

very condescending and getting frustrated.

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With the attorney.

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And then when he asked how he found out

about the hearing, the attorney couldn't

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tell him because it was confidential

and it was privileged and it seemed

: 00:03:16

to be just sort of the last straw.

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Christine: Yeah.

: 00:03:18

And I don't even know if maybe

the attorney couldn't hear him.

: 00:03:21

This guy is so elderly.

: 00:03:22

I'll tell you, this one sent me to a new

level of rage for a plethora of reasons.

: 00:03:28

Yeah.

: 00:03:28

Mainly I think this shows like the

demeanor that some judges have, like

: 00:03:32

this judge should be removed from the

bench for that behavior in and of itself.

: 00:03:35

Hugh: Well, I think somebody talked to him

about it and to his credit, he apologized

: 00:03:39

and apologized to the attorney's face.

: 00:03:40

I think he was appearing, I

think he was upset because the

: 00:03:43

attorney was appearing by Zoom.

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Yeah.

: 00:03:45

And I think the attorney was presumably

appearing by Zoom because he had

: 00:03:49

just received notice of the, he, I

hadn't received formal notice that

: 00:03:52

there was going to be a hearing.

: 00:03:54

He.

: 00:03:55

Found out from some confidential source

that there was going to be a hearing

: 00:03:59

and he wanted to make sure it didn't

take place without him being there as an

: 00:04:03

attorney for a party in interest Naturally

should not go forward without him there.

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Right.

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And was being dressed

down terribly for it.

: 00:04:10

Now I know that clip at the end is

the judge apologizing in person.

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So there was obviously at a later

date where that attorney was there

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in present, in person, present in the

courtroom, which needed to happen.

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Christine: I think it was the next week.

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And I, I don't think an

apology suffices there.

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Like, and I think this is the bigger

picture there is, in my opinion, there

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is zero way that that judge would

behave like that outside the courtroom.

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And so that judge is aware that

that's inappropriate behavior.

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And I think we see that a lot with judges

like we've talked before on this podcast.

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There's no way some of the judges,

the way they have spoken to me and

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my clients would ever speak to me

like that on the street corner, ever.

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Hugh: I mean, a judge, you would never

expect someone to walk up to you on

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the street and talk to anyone, let

alone someone that they, you know,

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the judge has to have a professional

relationship with someone that is

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practicing in that judge's court that if

that happened outside of the courtroom,

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that would be completely unacceptable.

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But inside the courtroom it's an elderly

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Christine: person.

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Hugh: Well, and someone who was

just being grilled on why he was

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there by Zoom when it's the judge

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Christine: staff is

the one that fucked up.

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Hugh: Well, I don't know.

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I don't know , who did it, but if,

if what he is saying is true, he

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didn't get written notice of it.

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Mm-hmm.

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And it's only because someone tipped

him off that he actually was there.

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And god knows what would've

would've happened if that hearing

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had gone on without him there

and he didn't have notice, then

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you'd run into so many problems.

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But if you were that

person's client mm-hmm.

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How in the world.

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Would you have an expectation

that your judge was going to be

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objective on your case if a judge

acted that way toward your attorney?

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Right.

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And this is something that, while I didn't

have that situation that often, although

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there were one or two judges that if

they were in a bad mood, you could expect

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that kind of behavior either toward a

client or toward, toward the attorney.

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And you could tell within the first

minute, minute and a half of a proceeding

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or a motion hour how that was going to go.

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But from a client's perspective, I, I've

seen that happen to where I've had to

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argue with a judge over a call that wasn't

correct, that was dispositive or, or was

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highly prejudicial to my client's case.

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And it was clear to me that the

judge, there was something that

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needed to be explained and it

would change the ruling on it.

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And.

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I always went about it very quietly.

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I like I'm not, I wasn't perfectly stoic.

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I showed emotion in the courtroom,

but I didn't get upset and I

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always tried to be very gentle

and in sort of explaining things.

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And you would be met with the kind

of reaction we saw in that video.

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Yep.

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And then as happened in that case, the

judge realized that he was incorrect

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and the attorney was correct, but and

that will happen in the courtroom and

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the judge will then reverse, , the

ruling and let something in that you

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needed to get in or exclude something

that should very, you know, should

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under the rules be excluded, but then

the client is left with an impression.

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Yeah.

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That no matter what happens at that

hearing, what I would find is I

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would go through the rest of the

hearing if we performed very well.

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That moment is what

stuck , in the client's mind.

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Christine: Well also, do we know if

this judge just apologized because

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the clip was going viral or because

they knew someone had leaked it

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on TikTok, , or was it genuine?

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'cause in my experience, grown

men or women don't huff and

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puff and behave like that in a

professional setting as a one-off.

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That's a general standard practice.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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No, I, I would agree with that, that it's

I never saw it from a judge just one time.

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Yeah.

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If I practice regularly in front of them,

my guess, and it's just a guess, but from

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a lot of experience is that that judge

had good staff and a lot of times if you

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have staff that's been with you for a long

time and can speak freely with you, when

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he finished off the bench, he was told

in no uncertain terms by his staff that.

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You can't act like that.

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Do you realize what just happened and,

and hopefully how you, how you reacted

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to that attorney was very unprofessional.

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Christine: What do you think

his punishment should be?

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Hugh: Oh,

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Christine: if any,

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Hugh: from a one-off instance like

that, which is all we know about.

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Okay.

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All we saw the clip.

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He apologized.

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He apologized professionally.

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The attorney handled it very well.

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I think that's it.

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If it's one time a face-to-face apology

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Christine: not for me.

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Okay.

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You know what?

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I think it should happen?

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I think he should have to go down to

like an IGA in eastern Kentucky, find

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the oldest person shopping there,

go up to them, speak to them like

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he spoke to that elderly attorney,

and then whatever happens, happens.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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I, you know, the way that I saw the

clip, . It seems like an ancillary

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fact that the attorney is elderly.

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It didn't seem like the it doesn't

seem like the reaction from the

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judge was coming from something that

resulted in, from the attorney's age.

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I mean, I think that there should

probably be I, growing up in, in

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South Carolina, certainly there's a.

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Level of deference and respect

that you owe to your elders.

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Christine: Yeah,

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Hugh: you absolutely, but I think the

two things, I can't tell if they're,

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if that's related or not, or if the

judge was just in a bad mood and the

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person, whoever it was that was there

appearing by Zoom, was gonna get

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that kind of treatment no matter who.

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Christine: I guess I could see that.

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I just think that it's a

notion that there's no.

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Way.

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I mean, we could take it outta Eastern

Kentucky and we could say, let's go

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down to the 32nd and West Broadway and

go up to somebody, an elderly person

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or a young person, and speak like that.

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And then whatever happens,

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Hugh: you g you would get

slapped and you should

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Christine: Oh.

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I mean, you get, and the thing

that's the point is like, he would

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know better not to behave like that.

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Yeah.

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So he puts this black robe on and

gets Judge iis and just thinks he

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can speak to someone like that.

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And that just like a simple

apology is gonna cut it.

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I mean, that, that made me sick.

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And I think Well, it's

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Hugh: because you've been through it.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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You, it brought back the feelings

of you sitting in the courtroom and

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that's happening and you're powerless.

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Mm-hmm.

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Hugh: And you're wondering,

oh God, how do I explain that?

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What do, what do I have to

tell my client after this?

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Because ding, ding, ding, I'm right.

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I didn't do anything wrong.

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Right.

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But I'm being dressed down

and they're gonna think.

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Naturally this judge wouldn't be

mad if I hadn't done anything wrong.

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Christine: Yeah, that's so true.

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Also, I just posted our clips of

us talking about the judge that

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used to get mad at everyone.

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Mm-hmm.

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And the comments and the dms and just

some of the pro se people that responded.

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Just everyone

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Hugh: knew who it was.

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Christine: Oh yeah.

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Actually, it's funny.

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One person suggested another old

attorney, which she was a little

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out there sometimes too, but old

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Hugh: attorney or old judge,

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Christine: judge.

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Judge.

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Yeah.

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I'll tell you later.

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But the traumas, the power that

these judges have and the fact that

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they don't quote unquote realize it

or if they do realize it, they're

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just utilizing it to be abusive.

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And that's where I really struggle

'cause I just struggle that any

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human being it's the same thing

with like domestic violence, right?

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Like you yell at your significant other at

home or you tell them horrific things in

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private that you would never do in public.

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It's because you know better.

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It's a bad look.

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And these judges in particular,

the judge that we talked about

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previously, would never speak to

any of us like that off the bench.

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It was something that happened the

second that she stepped foot on the

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Hugh: Yeah.

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And do you know what

type of proceeding Nope.

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That video was from?

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So on this podcast we talk a lot

about family court and if it were just

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attorneys appearing before a judge for

a pretrial case management conference.

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It would not be excusable, but it would

be easier to understand where, the

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judges that could talk very frankly

with the attorneys, I oftentimes

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liked that, but only if you could,

everybody could just lay it on the

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line and cut the BS while you were

talking at a pretrial, if you were

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off the record or sitting in chambers.

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Not ex parte, but like everyone together.

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I appreciated that.

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I'm not saying that just treating

somebody like that in general is okay.

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Yeah.

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But when we're talking about family

court, there is a much higher

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level of sensitivity because of

the issues that we're dealing with.

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Sometimes it's just financial.

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Sometimes people are being petty about

something financial that has very little

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value, and it's just the emotions and

all, and the judges will get frustrated.

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But for the most part, people are there

arguing over the most important things.

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Their life.

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Yeah.

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And when it comes to people's

children, and you see a judge acting

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like that and getting frustrated

and not wanting to spend the time

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to get to the bottom of something so

simple about maybe everyone should

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receive adequate notice of a hearing.

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That's, that has a substantial

impact on the case.

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When you see that happen in

family court, , it's chilling.

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It's shocking.

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And it's a terrible experience to

have to sit through because you have

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to sit there and say, yes, judge.

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Thank you, judge.

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Christine: Your honor,

your honor, no matter how,

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Hugh: your Honor, how,

no matter how, yeah.

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Depending on which courtroom you're

in no matter how they're treating you.

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And you have to immediately start

thinking, well, how am I gonna explain

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this to my client because they're

gonna think I did something wrong,

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because the judge is in a bad mood.

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But it's even worse when you

see that happen to a client.

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Yeah.

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And I've sat through a trial where

that happened two or three times in

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the courts of a full day trial and.

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, Opposing counsel came up

afterwards and said, wow, , does

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the judge know your client?

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Like, why does she hate her so badly?

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And it's just every time she would say

something, the judge would roll her eyes

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and cut her off and just get to the point.

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And it was, but it was

from the very beginning.

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And I'd kind of seen that

before to previous hearing.

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So we had scripted out, not, not scripted.

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We had gone through

question and answer the we.

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There was no rambling, there

was no extraneous information.

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There was, I'm asking a

very specific question.

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You're giving a very specific answer.

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We're building our story, we're

putting on the evidence that we needed.

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It wasn't something where, I mean, we've

all sat through testimony that just

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meanders and wanders and everybody in the

courtroom is tense and frustrated with it.

315

: 00:14:34

It was not that, and the judge

was treating it like it was the

316

: 00:14:37

most pointless thing in the world.

317

: 00:14:39

It was just so not worth her time.

318

: 00:14:41

And.

319

: 00:14:42

You don't get past that?

320

: 00:14:44

Christine: No.

321

: 00:14:44

It makes me physically ill to think

about, and we talked on our first podcast

322

: 00:14:48

about how attorneys need to speak up

and you know, I think it's great in

323

: 00:14:51

hindsight to think about all the things

I've done since I left the practice or

324

: 00:14:56

that we're doing now, but then if I had

a dollar for every time I didn't speak

325

: 00:15:01

up when something like that happened.

326

: 00:15:03

Oh, yeah.

327

: 00:15:03

You

328

: 00:15:03

Christine: know, I mean, there's a

lot of guilt that comes with that too.

329

: 00:15:07

Hugh: Oh no, I agree.

330

: 00:15:07

And, and, but, but it's, it's

always the question of what do I do?

331

: 00:15:10

This is not, so if a judge is acting or

any, it's like anyone acting irrationally.

332

: 00:15:15

Mm-hmm.

333

: 00:15:16

You want to have a rational response

to it, but then you have to think,

334

: 00:15:19

is that going to make a difference?

335

: 00:15:20

Because they're acting

irrationally anyway.

336

: 00:15:22

So if they are mad about something and.

337

: 00:15:26

They're treating someone

in some outsized way.

338

: 00:15:29

How?

339

: 00:15:30

Like what is the appropriate thing to do?

340

: 00:15:31

, If we were giving advice to young

attorneys who are experiencing

341

: 00:15:36

that, what would you say?

342

: 00:15:37

Because if you bring it up, no

matter how politely you bring it up.

343

: 00:15:42

I'd say it's a coin flip.

344

: 00:15:43

Whether or not you made

things worse or not,

345

: 00:15:46

Christine: I don't

disagree with that at all.

346

: 00:15:47

I think what I would tell young attorneys

now is to DM me, send it to me and

347

: 00:15:52

I'll put it all over social media.

348

: 00:15:54

And I'll put it all over and I'll

put money behind sponsoring it.

349

: 00:15:58

'cause I tell you what, like, that one

judge in particular, I heard a story that

350

: 00:16:03

this judge said, if y'all can't get along,

I can just put this kid in foster care.

351

: 00:16:08

Hugh: Yeah.

352

: 00:16:08

Christine: And if I, you ever heard that?

353

: 00:16:10

Hugh: No, no, no.

354

: 00:16:11

I, I've heard this example.

355

: 00:16:12

Christine: Okay.

356

: 00:16:12

And I'm gonna tell you right now,

if I find video of that, I don't

357

: 00:16:14

even care if it's confidential.

358

: 00:16:16

I'm gonna put it online.

359

: 00:16:17

I won't do it associated with us.

360

: 00:16:18

But that is, that is sick.

361

: 00:16:21

That is disgusting.

362

: 00:16:22

That is immediate removal from the bench.

363

: 00:16:25

Even, even if it's,

364

: 00:16:25

Hugh: even if it's just a

threat to, you know, yeah.

365

: 00:16:27

You, you threaten.

366

: 00:16:29

You threaten people to

get their attention.

367

: 00:16:31

That's, it's just a, it's

a different arena in court.

368

: 00:16:35

Yep.

369

: 00:16:35

You're not dealing with your own, you

know, five-year-olds who are fighting.

370

: 00:16:39

Right.

371

: 00:16:39

It's like those types of

threats are a big deal.

372

: 00:16:43

Christine: And I think that

that is just next level.

373

: 00:16:47

, The scary thing.

374

: 00:16:47

'cause I talk to some judges

now and they're like, do you

375

: 00:16:50

realize how stressful our job is?

376

: 00:16:52

Like we have people that threaten us.

377

: 00:16:53

We have all of this stuff.

378

: 00:16:55

Well, if you have a judge that's

threatening to put a kid in foster

379

: 00:16:58

care because parents can't get

along, your beef is with that judge.

380

: 00:17:02

Because what would you do as a

parent if you're going in and you're

381

: 00:17:05

having some debate about, ah, hell,

I don't know, a vaccine, whether or

382

: 00:17:10

not somebody's gonna play soccer.

383

: 00:17:11

And the judge is like,

y'all don't get it together.

384

: 00:17:13

I'm gonna take your kid away.

385

: 00:17:14

Yeah.

386

: 00:17:14

Christine: I mean that's, you would

not have a, you wouldn't be a normal

387

: 00:17:18

parent to be honest if you didn't

have a visceral reaction to that.

388

: 00:17:21

Hugh: Oh, and it.

389

: 00:17:23

Completely changed my perspective

when I had kids of my own.

390

: 00:17:26

And I saw that for the first time.

391

: 00:17:28

And I thought if I was sitting in

a hearing in front of someone who

392

: 00:17:32

has full power to do whatever he

wants or she wants with my children.

393

: 00:17:36

Yeah.

394

: 00:17:37

Hugh: Including take my custody away.

395

: 00:17:38

Mm-hmm.

396

: 00:17:39

And they were acting that

flippantly about my kids.

397

: 00:17:43

I don't think I could sit as commonly

as my clients do, but I think so much

398

: 00:17:47

of the time people sit there very

commonly because they are in such shock.

399

: 00:17:50

Mm-hmm.

400

: 00:17:50

They don't know how to react.

401

: 00:17:52

And let me tell you, when people

speaking to people who aren't

402

: 00:17:55

represented, when you do react.

403

: 00:17:58

Usually gets much worse.

404

: 00:18:01

Christine: Yeah.

405

: 00:18:01

And I think that's kind of the

cycle that we need to break.

406

: 00:18:03

I mean, really and truly, it's a

cycle, like a cycle of domestic

407

: 00:18:06

violence, a cycle of alcoholism,

a cycle of coercive control.

408

: 00:18:10

The cycle that these judges have

gotten themself into where it's just,

409

: 00:18:14

it's one big club, you're not in it.

410

: 00:18:16

And we can do whatever we

want without consequence.

411

: 00:18:18

Time's up, you know?

412

: 00:18:20

I think that's the point.

413

: 00:18:21

Hugh: But you see the opposite as well.

414

: 00:18:22

I mean, you see judges , especially

judges who have kids, and that those

415

: 00:18:26

moments where they relate to people

that are sitting there, yes, I know

416

: 00:18:29

you think this is a big deal and I'm

here to solve this and help you through

417

: 00:18:32

it, but let me tell you, my kids are

a few years older and this is gonna be

418

: 00:18:36

nothing like I, I'm okay with sometimes

you sort of, you know, it Family court

419

: 00:18:41

requires sort of a different touch.

420

: 00:18:43

Yeah.

421

: 00:18:43

I think than, than certain other things.

422

: 00:18:45

I, I think airing on the, like the

compassionate side and completely ruling

423

: 00:18:51

out any of the overreactions or being

flippant is the only way you should

424

: 00:18:55

deviate as a judge on the family court.

425

: 00:18:57

Christine: Hell, I can't think of a

time though that empathy is not gonna

426

: 00:19:00

be beneficial to anyone on the bench.

427

: 00:19:03

I mean that why else take the

job if you can't empathize to

428

: 00:19:07

see two sides of every story?

429

: 00:19:09

Even even in criminal court though,

I mean, , you have to understand

430

: 00:19:12

like, have you ever read a PSI.

431

: 00:19:15

Hugh: I don't believe I have.

432

: 00:19:16

Christine: That's a

pre-sentence investigation.

433

: 00:19:17

So every time you're charged

with a felony, before you get

434

: 00:19:19

sentenced they'll do a PSI.

435

: 00:19:21

And in that PSI, they'll talk

about literally every twist.

436

: 00:19:25

And that is the, basically the background

of any sort of dependency, neglect, and

437

: 00:19:28

abuse action that's happened to somebody.

438

: 00:19:30

And you will see the scenario.

439

: 00:19:33

You know, a lot of times people

don't get where they are in a

440

: 00:19:35

vacuum actually most of the time.

441

: 00:19:37

And the horrific things that people

experience in their childhood or

442

: 00:19:40

experienced in their life, and

maybe this is why they're addicted

443

: 00:19:44

to substances, or maybe this is

why they act the way that they act.

444

: 00:19:48

And so when sentencing them, you know, the

best judges I ever practiced in front of

445

: 00:19:52

didn't point their finger like, how dare

you, you son of a, it was just, this is

446

: 00:19:57

your sentence, this is your consequence,

please, while you're in custody.

447

: 00:20:02

Get treatment, address these issues,

you know, you're still a human being.

448

: 00:20:06

Yeah.

449

: 00:20:07

And so I, , I just don't think this

isn't Venezuela, you know, we aren't

450

: 00:20:11

supposed to just decide one way and

then stone someone, not that they

451

: 00:20:15

stone people in Venezuela, or do they?

452

: 00:20:17

I don't know.

453

: 00:20:18

They may, I mean, I don't,

454

: 00:20:19

Hugh: yeah.

455

: 00:20:20

It may drag 'em off to a prison

they're never heard from again.

456

: 00:20:23

But I, I don't believe

stonings are general practice.

457

: 00:20:26

, You know, and I've had, I remember,

458

: 00:20:30

I'm trying to think if

this is confidential.

459

: 00:20:32

No, I, I was involved in the case.

460

: 00:20:34

I, and the father was had been shot

six times in the chest and was still

461

: 00:20:46

ended up without custody of his kids.

462

: 00:20:49

The, the wife and mother of the kids

shot him six times, invited him to

463

: 00:20:53

the house, had him sit down on the

couch, went to the back, grabbed a

464

: 00:20:57

gun, walked in, and blew him away.

465

: 00:20:59

And so you can imagine all of the things

that the judge might have to make her

466

: 00:21:04

the better bet for having custody of

the kids, how bad it must have been.

467

: 00:21:09

But I remember him in court sort of

impassioned when he realized that

468

: 00:21:16

no matter what he did, you know,

things weren't gonna change that day.

469

: 00:21:20

He said something.

470

: 00:21:21

But I was their father and I've done and

the judge stopped him and I thought she

471

: 00:21:24

was gonna dress him down or something.

472

: 00:21:26

She said, no, I'm gonna

set the record straight.

473

: 00:21:29

We're gonna get this

really clear right now.

474

: 00:21:31

You are their father.

475

: 00:21:33

Mm-hmm.

476

: 00:21:33

Not you were their father.

477

: 00:21:34

My ruling today does not take

that away and I want you, and

478

: 00:21:37

it was amazing to me mm-hmm.

479

: 00:21:39

That the judge.

480

: 00:21:40

Said, okay, we've got

things we need to work on.

481

: 00:21:42

There are things that we need to remedy.

482

: 00:21:43

This is step one.

483

: 00:21:45

You are, I'm not taking you

out of these kids' lives.

484

: 00:21:48

These are my expectations.

485

: 00:21:49

You will always be their father.

486

: 00:21:50

You're important to them.

487

: 00:21:51

That kind of stuff I thought made

a difference in people's lives.

488

: 00:21:56

Christine: Absolutely.

489

: 00:21:56

And I can go down the rabbit hole of

talking about all the negative stuff that

490

: 00:22:00

judges have done, but I have, I mean,

there was a reason I was an attorney for,

491

: 00:22:04

15 years and I had some great judges,

, and I did have a judge that yelled

492

: 00:22:09

at me once and I appeared before him.

493

: 00:22:12

Thousands of times.

494

: 00:22:13

This is when I was a public defender

and he did, he snapped at me one

495

: 00:22:16

time and I remember , he looked at me

afterwards and was like, my bad, you

496

: 00:22:20

know, after court was like, the look

on your face was just sheer shock.

497

: 00:22:23

And it was kind of like, oh my

god, daddy just yelled at me.

498

: 00:22:26

Like, because he'd always been, now

he was stern and all of those things.

499

: 00:22:29

Yeah.

500

: 00:22:29

But that is not how he conducted business.

501

: 00:22:32

This is Willie Roberts out of Eastern

Kentucky and one thing that he always

502

: 00:22:37

did in particular and I hope he doesn't

get mad about me talking about that, but

503

: 00:22:41

he did juvenile court and he would tell

those kids every client I had, when you

504

: 00:22:44

graduate high school, I'll be there.

505

: 00:22:45

Like, you know what I mean?

506

: 00:22:47

And or when you have this big

thing, I'm gonna be there.

507

: 00:22:49

And he went, he actually

followed through with it.

508

: 00:22:52

And now we're not talking about

a district judge in Louisville.

509

: 00:22:54

They, they have to, they have dockets,

all they handle four counties.

510

: 00:22:58

And he always went and he

never took a picture of it.

511

: 00:23:01

But that's the kind of stuff.

512

: 00:23:03

Did he change every person's life?

513

: 00:23:04

No.

514

: 00:23:04

But did he change some people's?

515

: 00:23:06

Yes.

516

: 00:23:07

Yeah.

517

: 00:23:07

And those are the stories that we

need to highlight for the good.

518

: 00:23:11

I'd love to hear from some of like prior

public defender clients about things

519

: 00:23:15

that judges or attorneys did for them

or how the system really helped them

520

: 00:23:19

because there are so many of that.

521

: 00:23:21

So yell at me when I

go down my rabbit hole.

522

: 00:23:22

Hugh: Well, I've also seen judges

that say, look, I can empathize.

523

: 00:23:26

If you were asking me just as a

human being and this, these would

524

: 00:23:29

happen in civil cases where you

were having maybe a pretrial or

525

: 00:23:32

you were talking in chambers about.

526

: 00:23:34

What issues you were gonna

proceed on, which ones might be

527

: 00:23:38

good for mediation or mm-hmm.

528

: 00:23:39

Or something like that.

529

: 00:23:40

So, docket control.

530

: 00:23:41

Yeah.

531

: 00:23:42

Yeah.

532

: 00:23:42

And you'd be sitting in the back and

the judge would say, I could empathize.

533

: 00:23:45

I would feel exactly the same way your

client does, but legally you're gonna

534

: 00:23:48

have to prove X, Y, and Z before I

could see that there's a claim there.

535

: 00:23:51

Mm-hmm.

536

: 00:23:52

Just because, you know, this

obviously happened, this was a

537

: 00:23:56

bad thing that was traumatic.

538

: 00:23:57

It doesn't mean that

there's a legal claim.

539

: 00:23:59

So there's a difference between

empathizing and ruling for someone.

540

: 00:24:02

Oh, true.

541

: 00:24:02

It's just being human while still

carrying out your duties as a judge.

542

: 00:24:07

Christine: Yes.

543

: 00:24:07

Yes.

544

: 00:24:08

I think that maybe one of the

missing components for a lot of

545

: 00:24:11

judges is just that human component.

546

: 00:24:14

And I think that we've seen that

just in the last three to five years.

547

: 00:24:17

Like really, I think it

has dramatically escalated.

548

: 00:24:21

Am I wrong?

549

: 00:24:22

Hugh: You know, it's always hard

for me to tell I've I litigated

550

: 00:24:25

for almost exactly 20 years before.

551

: 00:24:28

I decided to try to, to take the

next step of my career in my life and

552

: 00:24:35

oftentimes I, I think people

look back on the past as better.

553

: 00:24:40

Yeah.

554

: 00:24:40

You know, there's this fallacy that,

you know, things were better in the

555

: 00:24:43

past, but I tend to think that you are

correct, that things have gotten far

556

: 00:24:49

worse, they've gotten more, they've

gotten far less formal, and there

557

: 00:24:55

seems to be, and I think honestly this

mirrors society in general right now.

558

: 00:25:00

There is a, there is a difference

in the level of respect that's being

559

: 00:25:05

given to other people, but I think

it's mirrored in the courtrooms.

560

: 00:25:10

And I think attorneys get frustrated

and don't show the same respect

561

: 00:25:13

for the judges as they used to.

562

: 00:25:15

But it's sort of like

with kids, when parents.

563

: 00:25:18

Or nasty to kids and they say,

why are you disrespecting me?

564

: 00:25:22

That's all you've taught.

565

: 00:25:23

Mm-hmm.

566

: 00:25:24

That's a reaction that you have to expect

if you treat other people with disrespect

567

: 00:25:27

all the time, you're gonna get it back.

568

: 00:25:29

But I think that that's happening

throughout society and we're

569

: 00:25:32

seeing it reflected in our courts.

570

: 00:25:33

But what you and I saw being family

practitioners is how that change in the

571

: 00:25:41

discourse had huge impacts on families.

572

: 00:25:44

Yeah.

573

: 00:25:44

It wasn't just, well, I'm not

going to find that your offender

574

: 00:25:48

bender was all his fault and

I'm, you know, it'd be one thing.

575

: 00:25:52

But when you're talking about

someone's kid, something that is

576

: 00:25:54

going to have lifelong implications.

577

: 00:25:57

You're doing it flippantly or not

paying people the respect of listening

578

: 00:26:02

to their case and you're just watching

your watch and watching your computer

579

: 00:26:05

screen, it makes a big difference.

580

: 00:26:07

Christine: Totally.

581

: 00:26:07

And that's just a segue

for everybody listening.

582

: 00:26:10

We're both licensed attorneys.

583

: 00:26:12

We left, I left for sure because I

just, I was at my breaking point.

584

: 00:26:16

I mean, there was like many straws,

but there was one thing that

585

: 00:26:20

broke the camel's back and you're

a licensed attorney 20 years in.

586

: 00:26:24

Let's kind of talk a little

bit about why you left.

587

: 00:26:27

How long did you wanna leave

before you left finally?

588

: 00:26:30

Hugh: Oh that's hard to say.

589

: 00:26:32

It's once I was out and I realized how

different I felt as a human and how

590

: 00:26:38

much healthier I was and how my mindset

was after I left, I realized that I

591

: 00:26:42

had been in a bad place for years.

592

: 00:26:46

Mm-hmm.

593

: 00:26:46

I think I started noticing

it getting very bad.

594

: 00:26:49

I'd say about five

years before I left and.

595

: 00:26:53

It involved panic attacks.

596

: 00:26:54

It involved just being generally

unhappy and early in the career,

597

: 00:26:58

when you're building a practice, you

work long hours, but you're into it.

598

: 00:27:02

Mm-hmm.

599

: 00:27:02

And you, you just, you

care about your cases.

600

: 00:27:05

You wanna fight.

601

: 00:27:05

If you're a good attorney, you

wanna fight for your clients.

602

: 00:27:08

You personalize it oftentimes in family

court way more than you should, and it's

603

: 00:27:12

unhealthy, but you work those long hours.

604

: 00:27:14

That's not what was getting to me.

605

: 00:27:16

It was, it was a lot of what

we, we are talking about.

606

: 00:27:19

And I pulled back further because

I built a big practice in, in, you

607

: 00:27:25

know, six offices in five states

and we were growing very quickly.

608

: 00:27:28

That part was very satisfying.

609

: 00:27:30

Christine: Yeah.

610

: 00:27:30

Hugh: But the times I was spending

in court, you were just there,

611

: 00:27:36

there were a lot of problems for

me, part of it was this breakdown

612

: 00:27:40

that we discuss on this podcast.

613

: 00:27:42

Mm-hmm.

614

: 00:27:42

Another part to me was , the law

office model, I think doesn't.

615

: 00:27:48

Serve clients very well.

616

: 00:27:50

I think the legal industry is broken

in a lot of ways and something I will

617

: 00:27:53

discuss more on my personal podcast, but

I think there needs to be innovation,

618

: 00:27:59

there needs to be some change in it.

619

: 00:28:01

And I sort of hit the 20 year point

and reflected back do I want another

620

: 00:28:05

20 years of doing the same thing?

621

: 00:28:06

Do you making a lot of, you know,

I was making very good money.

622

: 00:28:10

Yeah, I was at a great stage in my career.

623

: 00:28:11

I wasn't having to practice

day in, day out, but I just,

624

: 00:28:15

I wanted something different.

625

: 00:28:16

I wanted to make a difference.

626

: 00:28:17

Christine: So let me ask you a question,

and this is kind of heavy, but if the

627

: 00:28:23

judges weren't how the judges are,

would you have stayed longer, you think?

628

: 00:28:29

Hugh: It's hard to tell.

629

: 00:28:30

Yeah, I think, I think a lot of it was

just, there's a significant point in my

630

: 00:28:34

career as it 20 years and I just sort of

had to decide if things were changing or

631

: 00:28:39

anything interesting was happening in it.

632

: 00:28:41

I think I would've been

in a more optimistic place

633

: 00:28:45

when making that decision.

634

: 00:28:46

I think I came to that decision,

635

: 00:28:51

that inflection point, feeling

like I was working just in a broken

636

: 00:28:55

system from every single direction.

637

: 00:28:58

Mm-hmm.

638

: 00:28:58

And it felt you felt kind of defeated.

639

: 00:29:01

Yeah.

640

: 00:29:01

Like you just weren't able to make

the difference that you wanted to?

641

: 00:29:05

Yeah, so I don't know.

642

: 00:29:07

It's very hard to say if it was

different, but I think if I was

643

: 00:29:10

able to feel I was making the

difference in clients' lives that I

644

: 00:29:13

felt like I was making 10 years ago.

645

: 00:29:16

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

646

: 00:29:17

647

: 00:29:17

Hugh: met, I might have stayed there.

648

: 00:29:18

That different level of

satisfaction may have been there.

649

: 00:29:21

Christine: And I think it's because you

used to, I mean, I love going to court.

650

: 00:29:25

Like actually when we did our

walkthrough the other day, you were

651

: 00:29:27

like, I don't miss this at all.

652

: 00:29:28

And I'm like, I miss, I miss so much.

653

: 00:29:30

Like I really do miss practicing,

but I couldn't go to court.

654

: 00:29:34

Like I knew every single time I went

to court that it was gonna be, for lack

655

: 00:29:39

of a better term, just a shit show.

656

: 00:29:41

There would be no order.

657

: 00:29:42

It would either be.

658

: 00:29:43

A continuance would be granted

without it anyone asking for it.

659

: 00:29:48

Yeah.

660

: 00:29:48

People would be 20, 30, 45 minutes late.

661

: 00:29:51

The judge hadn't read the motion,

or you would be yelled at.

662

: 00:29:55

Or even worse, it would be like

just you go down a rabbit hole of

663

: 00:30:00

something that wasn't even before

the court, and somehow get an order

664

: 00:30:03

of something that had nothing to do

with what we'd prepared for in court.

665

: 00:30:06

And it just, you couldn't

prepare your clients.

666

: 00:30:09

And I, Dr.

667

: 00:30:10

I dreaded going to court

with every ounce of my being.

668

: 00:30:13

Yeah.

669

: 00:30:14

Because I knew one.

670

: 00:30:15

I mean, you can't prepare

and be productive in that

671

: 00:30:18

environment, and that's our job.

672

: 00:30:20

And two, you're gonna have to go out and

have a conversation with your clients.

673

: 00:30:23

Like, if I could record some of the

conversations that I had after we left

674

: 00:30:27

the courtroom, it would be a TV sitcom.

675

: 00:30:32

Hugh: I started that conversation

while we were sitting in the courtroom.

676

: 00:30:35

I found that passing notes back

and forth, or leaning back and

677

: 00:30:39

whispering just to get ahead of.

678

: 00:30:41

This is not, you know, yes,

this is different than what

679

: 00:30:44

I told you was gonna happen.

680

: 00:30:45

Here's why it's different.

681

: 00:30:46

And you know, sort of

to prime them for it.

682

: 00:30:48

Mm-hmm.

683

: 00:30:48

Because I wanted them to pay attention to

the next, you know, to take very seriously

684

: 00:30:52

the next things that happened and not be

too distracted by something just out of

685

: 00:30:56

the ordinary that, that would happen that

was not proper earlier in the hearing.

686

: 00:31:00

Christine: I mean, it would

be a regular occurrence.

687

: 00:31:04

And this is kind of off topic a

little bit, I guess it's not, but I

688

: 00:31:07

get a lot of calls from attorneys.

689

: 00:31:09

I think last week I got 21

calls from different attorneys.

690

: 00:31:12

And I had one of the attorneys be

like, oh my gosh, I told you not

691

: 00:31:17

to say anything about something.

692

: 00:31:19

I'm like, I didn't say

anything about something.

693

: 00:31:20

And they were like, I watched

your TikTok about how an FOC

694

: 00:31:24

didn't meet with a client.

695

: 00:31:26

I'm like, honey bunny, bless your heart.

696

: 00:31:29

That's happening.

697

: 00:31:30

That's happening in this moment.

698

: 00:31:32

Oh,

699

: 00:31:32

Hugh: yeah.

700

: 00:31:32

All over the place.

701

: 00:31:34

Right,

702

: 00:31:34

Christine: right, right.

703

: 00:31:34

704

: 00:31:35

Hugh: mean, I, it Oh.

705

: 00:31:37

I would regularly, very regularly

subpoena the billing records from

706

: 00:31:42

the FOC before my hearings, just so

that I could substantiate from their

707

: 00:31:47

billing records that they did not have

meetings to prepare for that hearing.

708

: 00:31:51

And so,

709

: 00:31:52

Christine: FOCs are investigative

bodies for the court, their

710

: 00:31:54

attorneys, but a subpoena is a court

order, and you're entitled to that.

711

: 00:31:57

Right.

712

: 00:31:57

And

713

: 00:31:58

Hugh: people treated me like it

was the worst thing in the world.

714

: 00:32:00

I was Whose people FOCs.

715

: 00:32:02

Sometimes the courts when I would try to

enforce those because they oftentimes were

716

: 00:32:06

ignored or told that I'm not answering

that I don't ha I'm a court appointed

717

: 00:32:09

FOC I don't have to answer your subpoena.

718

: 00:32:12

Oh, yeah, you do.

719

: 00:32:13

You're a witness.

720

: 00:32:13

You're an expert witness in this case.

721

: 00:32:16

And it, it was sometimes hard

to get judges to enforce those.

722

: 00:32:19

They, they always did to their credit,

but it, it was very unusual to be

723

: 00:32:22

doing that and people would get mad.

724

: 00:32:23

But it was very important

because I would say, okay.

725

: 00:32:26

You say you met with your clients.

726

: 00:32:28

You say they provided

this , amount of information.

727

: 00:32:30

I'm looking at your billing records.

728

: 00:32:31

You didn't bill anybody for meeting

with a client on those days.

729

: 00:32:35

Could you be wrong about the days?

730

: 00:32:36

Can you check your phone and

check your calendar to see what

731

: 00:32:39

days you had those meetings?

732

: 00:32:40

And most of the time when I would ask

that, they wouldn't look at their phone.

733

: 00:32:42

They would just kinda look at

me just like, yeah, I'm caught.

734

: 00:32:44

What?

735

: 00:32:45

What's gonna happen?

736

: 00:32:45

Christine: So they were

saying they met with the kids.

737

: 00:32:47

Oh, yeah.

738

: 00:32:47

Hugh: And hadn't, oh yeah.

739

: 00:32:50

Christine: I mean that's the kind of

thing, like I just did a TikTok about

740

: 00:32:53

how if your GAL or your FOC is not

meeting with the child or children,

741

: 00:32:58

it should be reported to the judge.

742

: 00:33:00

And I think that goes without saying.

743

: 00:33:01

Now, I don't know that the

judges will do anything.

744

: 00:33:03

In the

745

: 00:33:03

Hugh: instance that I'm thinking of,

the judge ruled strictly along the

746

: 00:33:07

lines of the FOC report, despite the

fact that never met, despite the fact

747

: 00:33:11

that I think had not returned a call or

an email to my client in four months.

748

: 00:33:16

And the ruling came out.

749

: 00:33:18

Exactly as the FOC report

went, now it got overturned.

750

: 00:33:22

So, but you know, the client

had to wait almost two years.

751

: 00:33:26

And meanwhile what we were talking about

is the suspension of his parenting time.

752

: 00:33:29

So during that two years while

we waited for the appeals.

753

: 00:33:32

No unsupervised parenting time for kids.

754

: 00:33:34

And the expert witness hadn't

755

: 00:33:35

Christine: talked to the client Correct.

756

: 00:33:36

Or talked to the person for four months

757

: 00:33:38

Hugh: Yep.

758

: 00:33:38

And actually admitted that all of

the information he got was from

759

: 00:33:41

, the therapist, not the children.

760

: 00:33:44

Christine: My word.

761

: 00:33:45

And I think talking about some reform

stuff, you know, we can really,

762

: 00:33:49

I think we need to change rule

six which is a family court rule.

763

: 00:33:52

But I do think that talk,

talk about rule six.

764

: 00:33:53

Well, rule six is the appointment

of third party individuals that get

765

: 00:33:59

immunity and they're court appointed.

766

: 00:34:01

They get billed a, they bill

hourly, blah, blah, blah.

767

: 00:34:03

Cannot speak today.

768

: 00:34:04

A friend of the courts, guardian

ad litems, custodial evaluators,

769

: 00:34:07

parenting coordinators.

770

: 00:34:08

We need to have much

tighter regulation on that.

771

: 00:34:11

And I think it should be standard

operating procedure for the FOCs to

772

: 00:34:15

include their bill in their report.

773

: 00:34:18

Sure.

774

: 00:34:18

And I think that's, without

question, something the legislator

775

: 00:34:22

has the authority to do.

776

: 00:34:22

Yeah.

777

: 00:34:23

Hugh: Well, I mean, you

know that we have rules.

778

: 00:34:26

Very specifically about FOC reports that

say they have to file reports and they

779

: 00:34:30

have to do it 10 days ahead of time.

780

: 00:34:31

They have to give it copies to everyone

and make their file accessible.

781

: 00:34:35

How often was that happening

when you left the practice?

782

: 00:34:38

0, 0,

783

: 00:34:39

Christine: 0.

784

: 00:34:39

Need that.

785

: 00:34:40

How many

786

: 00:34:40

Hugh: times in the last week have

you heard people talk about cases or

787

: 00:34:44

you've seen people arguing motions

where there's been no report filed

788

: 00:34:48

whatsoever in violation of the

rules and nothing done about it.

789

: 00:34:52

Christine: I think when I told you that

the attorney was like, you told my story,

790

: 00:34:56

and I was like, I have 14 examples.

791

: 00:35:00

Mm-hmm.

792

: 00:35:00

And calls this week of either FOCs

or GALS, that would include both not

793

: 00:35:05

having met with the child or children

in relation to that hearing coming up.

794

: 00:35:10

And that's the other weird thing that

GS and FOCs will do, is they'll meet

795

: 00:35:13

with the kid like September, 2021.

796

: 00:35:17

They'll be like, of

course I met with a kid.

797

: 00:35:18

It's like, well, it is July, 2025.

798

: 00:35:21

Right.

799

: 00:35:22

You know what I mean?

800

: 00:35:22

Like you, I just don't understand

how judges, how they don't see it,

801

: 00:35:28

Hugh: do

802

: 00:35:28

Christine: you?

803

: 00:35:30

Hugh: Oh I know that they see it,

but they, I, from my experience

804

: 00:35:34

is that you have this small group

of people that do this work for

805

: 00:35:37

the courts, and they are such an

indisposable part of the court system.

806

: 00:35:42

And I think that, you know, from what

I've, I've I've heard nationwide,

807

: 00:35:46

they're part of most family court

systems and the judges have gone on to

808

: 00:35:52

rely on them to do part of their work.

809

: 00:35:55

And so they look the other

way when those things happen.

810

: 00:35:59

Because what can they do?

811

: 00:36:01

Stop appointing this person.

812

: 00:36:02

It's, it's not like every attorney is

holding themselves out there to do it.

813

: 00:36:07

Now there are court systems, I have

colleagues and friends that practice

814

: 00:36:11

in, in, in jurisdictions where everyone

is one big pool of attorneys and you

815

: 00:36:16

get appointed to do that job and there

are guidelines to it and you get in

816

: 00:36:18

trouble if you don't do your job.

817

: 00:36:20

So they have a large enough pool.

818

: 00:36:22

Now, when you're dealing with family

law cases, do you want to have GALs or

819

: 00:36:27

FOCs that haven't been through training

or anything that, you know, you've

820

: 00:36:29

got other issues with that, but what

we're really seeing is contracting

821

: 00:36:34

out fact finding for the judges.

822

: 00:36:37

And , you can sit in a hearing and you can

prove on the record that the FOC didn't,

823

: 00:36:43

didn't speak to the children, only got

input from one side of the case over the

824

: 00:36:47

last four months prior to that hearing.

825

: 00:36:50

And you, I just regularly would

see whatever the FOC went anyway.

826

: 00:36:54

The judge didn't make any findings about

them not doing their job or that their.

827

: 00:36:59

What they reported to the court might

be old 'cause they haven't spoken to

828

: 00:37:02

one side or the children in four months,

and they would rule just on what the

829

: 00:37:06

FOC said because it makes their life

easier, the person they appointed.

830

: 00:37:10

And they know that most of the time, if

you rely on what an expert says in court,

831

: 00:37:16

you're probably not gonna be overturned.

832

: 00:37:18

Christine: Which gets to the bigger

picture of just the nefarious

833

: 00:37:21

cycle of all of it, which is why

anyone that participates in that

834

: 00:37:26

knowingly, I mean, it's got an aspect

of it that feels, I don't wanna

835

: 00:37:31

use the word criminal, obviously.

836

: 00:37:33

I mean, some people may, I mean, if

you're talking about like the mafia or

837

: 00:37:37

something, some people may, but it feels

like a machine that is designed to protect

838

: 00:37:42

the people within it without any regard

for how it affects families or children.

839

: 00:37:46

Hugh: Sure.

840

: 00:37:47

No I agree.

841

: 00:37:47

And one of the bigger examples, I mean we

talk a lot about the jurisdiction where

842

: 00:37:51

we practiced in largely Jefferson County,

but I think, from people reaching out

843

: 00:37:55

to us is clearly applies everywhere or

it applies a lot of places nationwide.

844

: 00:38:00

Christine: Yep.

845

: 00:38:00

Hugh: We have statutes that talk

about if there is dependency,

846

: 00:38:04

neglect, or abuse of a child.

847

: 00:38:05

The case has to go through certain

steps and has to go through

848

: 00:38:08

during a specific period of time.

849

: 00:38:10

There are ways to waive

that period of time.

850

: 00:38:13

But there are very specific requirements

for waiving that time period and

851

: 00:38:17

moving forward in a certain way.

852

: 00:38:19

It is such regular practice for

things to go three to four times

853

: 00:38:23

longer than the statutory period with

no explanation to the parties who

854

: 00:38:28

have to waive those time periods.

855

: 00:38:30

And when I've raised it in my practice,

I've always been told, you know,

856

: 00:38:36

that's just the way we do it here.

857

: 00:38:38

Yep.

858

: 00:38:38

And you just hear that phrase made me.

859

: 00:38:41

More upset than anything I heard

during my whole practice where there's

860

: 00:38:44

something that's so clearly against

a statute violating people's rights,

861

: 00:38:48

but it's just the way we do it here.

862

: 00:38:51

Christine: Yep.

863

: 00:38:51

Hugh: And it's the same

people that would say it.

864

: 00:38:53

It's the same people that are

utilized by the courts over and over,

865

: 00:38:56

and you're right, it's a machine.

866

: 00:38:58

Mm-hmm.

867

: 00:38:58

It's a system, and it no longer serves

the purpose that it's there for and

868

: 00:39:02

it doesn't serve the children that

it's there to protect, specifically

869

: 00:39:06

dependency, neglect, and abuse cases

are there to protect children's safety.

870

: 00:39:11

Mm-hmm.

871

: 00:39:11

And when you just start coming up with

your own rules and your own practices

872

: 00:39:15

for convenience rather than for the

protection of the child, you're no longer.

873

: 00:39:19

Carrying out what the statute established

jurisdiction in that court for

874

: 00:39:25

Christine: a hundred percent.

875

: 00:39:26

And that's where it just gets

weird to me because we wanna

876

: 00:39:29

talk about all these good judges.

877

: 00:39:31

And again, there are great judges, but

the fact that they know this is happening

878

: 00:39:35

and still pose for photos with them or

still like their social medias, you know,

879

: 00:39:40

I was even talking there was something

that came up with one judge and it was

880

: 00:39:44

so frustrating because I know that this

judge, how one particular judge may

881

: 00:39:48

feel about the way other judges behave.

882

: 00:39:51

But, you know, posting with

them doing that stuff is, is

883

: 00:39:56

condoning it, in my opinion.

884

: 00:39:57

Is it?

885

: 00:39:58

Yeah.

886

: 00:39:58

Hugh: I, I, if you know what's going on.

887

: 00:39:59

Yeah, yeah.

888

: 00:40:00

If you know

889

: 00:40:00

Christine: what's going on.

890

: 00:40:01

Hugh: Yeah.

891

: 00:40:01

I mean, I, I've had

conversations with some judges.

892

: 00:40:04

About the behavior of others, and

they have done things been behind

893

: 00:40:08

the scenes, but speaking to the right

people to try to get things changed.

894

: 00:40:10

Yeah, I know a particular judge this

is probably 10, 15 years ago, who had

895

: 00:40:15

her computer screen taken off the bench

because another judge received too many

896

: 00:40:20

complaints from attorneys that judge

was shopping online during hearings.

897

: 00:40:25

So I know some judges do speak out.

898

: 00:40:27

My question is, again, I think we

covered this in, or we talked about

899

: 00:40:30

this briefly at another podcast.

900

: 00:40:34

If I'm two floors up from you, you're

a judge that's acting improperly.

901

: 00:40:38

I am doing my job and

sitting up on a docket.

902

: 00:40:42

, How do you know how someone is behaving

on a very specific closed door docket?

903

: 00:40:47

How do you know that your

colleagues are behaving that way?

904

: 00:40:50

And I think, oh, part of what I want to do

here is make sure that everyone knows it.

905

: 00:40:53

Yeah, yeah.

906

: 00:40:54

And then maybe people can

change their behavior.

907

: 00:40:55

Christine: But I just think

that it's one big club.

908

: 00:40:58

We ain't in it.

909

: 00:40:59

And I don't understand why

they wanna be in it so bad.

910

: 00:41:03

Like you are gonna sell your

soul for $160,000 a year.

911

: 00:41:08

Hugh: No, I don't believe that at all.

912

: 00:41:10

I think people, I think a lot of

people, just like in any political

913

: 00:41:14

position, go there for power.

914

: 00:41:15

But I think there's plenty

of people that want to do.

915

: 00:41:18

Do right by their community and

do a good job in the community.

916

: 00:41:20

And I've seen some judges who just

genuinely want to get it right to the

917

: 00:41:25

point where they also ignore the law.

918

: 00:41:29

I've seen issues there, but it's

just, I've never had any doubt where,

919

: 00:41:32

why those judges work in those jobs.

920

: 00:41:34

Well, intentioned

921

: 00:41:35

Christine: right.

922

: 00:41:35

But what I'm saying is.

923

: 00:41:36

The ones like we have this very clear,

like why I left the practice mm-hmm.

924

: 00:41:40

Was because of one particular

judge, an ex parte situation.

925

: 00:41:43

Why I got on social media is because

of what I refer to as the TikTok judge.

926

: 00:41:48

But the backstory there is the judge

had a set up on the bench where

927

: 00:41:53

she could secretly selfie record

herself during court proceedings.

928

: 00:41:58

Now we're unclear of how

often this was happening.

929

: 00:42:00

I think it was happening much

Episode 6

31st Jul 2025

EP 06 Dressing Down

Transcript

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About the Podcast

About your host

Hugh Barrow