Episode 34

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Published on:

22nd Oct 2025

EP 34 Take the Wheel

Episode Notes for The JudgeMental Podcast – Episode 34: "Take the Wheel"

Welcome to another candid and insightful episode of The JudgeMental Podcast! Hosts Hugh and Christine, the minds behind judge-y, dive deep into the realities of courtroom transparency, judicial accountability, and the quirks of legal practice.

In this episode:

The hosts recount recent experiences of being denied access to courtrooms and discuss the importance of public access and transparency in the justice system.

Reflections on the value of observing court proceedings, the evolution of courtroom dynamics post-pandemic, and the impact of Zoom court on legal practice.

A lively discussion about the quality of lawyering, the role of judges in maintaining standards, and the sometimes comical moments that happen in court.

A deep dive into the confusion between GALs (Guardians ad Litem) and FOCs (Friend of the Court), and why it matters for families and children.

The critical issue of witness separation, recent case law, and the practical (and ethical) dilemmas attorneys face in family court.

Updates on new Supreme Court rules affecting confidentiality in domestic violence cases, and what that means for public access.

Listener shout-outs, behind-the-scenes banter, and a preview of the next episode—where Hugh and Christine promise to "drink beers and bitch" about the latest in legal drama.

Mentioned in this episode:

The judge-y app and website (judge-y.com), your go-to platform for judicial accountability.

Notable cases and legal concepts, including the importance of due process and the evolving rules around courtroom procedure.

Join the conversation:

Streaming in all 50 states and downloaded in 13 countries, The JudgeMental Podcast is your front-row seat to the realities of the legal system. Subscribe, leave a review, and check out judge-y.com for more resources and updates.

Transcript
Speaker:

You are listening to

The Judgemental Podcast.

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We're Hugh and Christine, the Minds

Behind Judgy, the revolutionary app

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that empowers you to judge the judges.

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It's pastime for judicial accountability

and transparency within the courts.

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Prepare for sharp insights, candid

critiques, and unshakable honesty from

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two lawyers determined to save the system.

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We need some justice.

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Justice, my fine justice.

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And I wanna ring, be in public.

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I wanna ring, be in public crowd.

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Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Jesus.

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Take the wheel.

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That should be the intro.

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LOL.

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Y'all judgemental.

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Podcast Wednesday.

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Today we have, we are sending a letter

to the judges after recent events of

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being locked in the courtroom, denied

access 'cause we are very concerned

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about the transparency in court.

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If you have not listened to episode.

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19.

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I think that is Hugh's Solo episode.

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My mama called me yesterday.

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She's behind and she said that was

one of our best ones and I agree.

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Anyway,

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Speaker: she's way behind.

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You need to get on her

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Speaker 2: failure.

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I know she feels bad LOL.

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She also was like, you

know who I really like?

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Is that Josh guy y'all had

on his story's so compelling.

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So we have sent a letter, essentially,

um, we've sent it to all family

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court judges and CC'd, Maisha van.

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We probably should send it to

all judges, all other judges.

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Although I have not heard of

anyone being denied access to

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any courtrooms other than family.

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Have you?

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Speaker: No.

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But that's just who's reached out.

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Mm-hmm.

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To us.

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Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: Or physically done it to me.

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Speaker: Oh yeah.

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Yeah.

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Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: Um, and so basically

transparency, you know, we had this heated

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debate about Zoom Court, um, and I am.

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Extraordinarily concerned about the

lack of access to public courts.

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I mean, I really would like for students,

for law students, for lawyers to just

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go sit in court and watch and see.

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'cause you can learn a lot.

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And I enjoy it.

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Speaker: I wish I had done it a lot more.

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Well, how, how often when you've been

sitting in there in the last couple

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months have you said, oh, you know,

that's a really great way to do it

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and you actually learned something.

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I, you know, I digress.

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Yeah.

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. No, that's true.

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I've sat, you know, early on in my

career, I sat through jury trials.

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Mm-hmm.

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And people have to, it's a lot more

performative, but it's a lot more, it's

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all you've thought through, down to the

word a lot more in those circumstances.

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Mm-hmm.

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Than you have to in, in circumstances

where you don't have a jury and you can

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pivot and you can, you, you can change

things up as you're sitting there.

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, And I was.

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I learned a lot, especially on

the cross-examination stuff.

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That is where the, the defense attorneys

really shine and, , sitting in court

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was, was great for that reason.

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But you don't see much out of the

judges in those circumstances because

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they are just sort of the referee,

they're not the decision maker in a

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lot of things in those jury trials.

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So, yeah, I don't, I don't remember any

major takeaways from sitting, sitting

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in court from a, from the judges.

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Standpoint,

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Speaker 2: when I first came back

to Louisville, , I would sit and

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I was doing almost all family.

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I was in a situation where I

couldn't take criminal cases 'cause

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there was someone else there.

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But I would sit in court and watch some

of the criminal, and I remember watching,

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I didn't know him at the time, but,

, watching Justin Brown do a preliminary

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hearing and being like, God, he's good.

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You know what I mean?

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I always really enjoyed preliminary

hearings, especially with public

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defenders because they were like

indoctrinated to make 'em 10 or 15

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minutes, but they knew every like, you

know, and they knew the cops and it

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could pull out certain information.

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Yep, yep.

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, And I just always found that so

fascinating, but, you know, and

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I think that the quality's gone

down because there's no oversight

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and because it's a shit show,

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Speaker: the quality of.

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Speaker 2: Lawyers.

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Speaker: Oh,

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Speaker 2: I mean, I

have not, you're right.

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I haven't seen, I saw a really great,

uh, argument in, , that case that we're

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following by the custodial evaluator,

the two, the two attorneys on that.

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Yeah.

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They did a hell of a job.

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They, both of them,

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Speaker: yeah.

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I mean, I don't remember.

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And this was in our last episode, I was

thinking about how things have changed

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since the pandemic where we were always

sitting over in court watching arguments.

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'cause when you were just sitting there in

motion hour, you had nothing else to do.

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You couldn't be like

typing on your laptop.

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Mm-hmm.

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'cause it makes noise.

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You were a captive audience, you

got to sit through it a lot more.

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One of the things I love about

Zoom is I can recognize when

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my case's name is called.

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I don't have to watch everything

that happens before that.

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I can sit there and be doing something

else and you know, not be billing

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my client for just dead time.

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But I did watch a lot more arguments

and when we sit in court nowadays,

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I don't feel like the arguments are

very different than they were before.

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I don't think, God, this

play is going downhill.

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I, I, I really haven't.

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Speaker 2: This play is going downhill.

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I like that playing.

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I mean this play, yeah,

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Speaker: I just, I, it, it

seems pretty much the same.

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You have some really good stuff.

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You have some really lazy phone it in

type attorneys, you have some people that

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they're gonna practice just by trying

to talk until everyone's exhausted.

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You have the people that are

always mad and red in the face,

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no matter what the case is.

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Yeah.

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You use the, the same cast of characters.

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It just seems it's, they're

different characters now.

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But, uh,

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Speaker 2: I've watched a

lot more hearings recently.

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Yeah,

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Speaker: you haven't

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Speaker 2: watched very many hearings.

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Haven't I haven't watched very

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Speaker: many hearings in my

entire career of other people.

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I mean, you just, what, what occasion

would I have to be spending my

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billable, potential billable hours

to go sitting watching somebody else

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through a hearing, because it's a

crapshoot on whether it's gonna be.

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Something you're gonna

get anything out of.

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Speaker 2: See, I don't know.

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I used to all, I just love watching court.

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Speaker: Mm.

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Speaker 2: I do.

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I love it.

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And I don't, I didn't say I

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Speaker: just liked it at all.

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I just, it wasn't, it didn't fit

into my, it didn't fit in, it didn't

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make any sense for me to be doing it.

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That's probably why I

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Speaker 2: drive a Ford.

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, Anyway.

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But I used to, especially when I

came back, I loved to watch 'em.

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And I think the quality has gone

down in, the hearing component of it.

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You.

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I don't think I heard

an objection yesterday.

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Oh my God, I forgot to tell you.

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On Monday, one of the attorneys was like,

your Honor, he just said stupid shit.

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And I'm like, oh, this is the this is

the quality of the Louisville family bar.

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Speaker: Wait, they said

the word stupid shit.

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Speaker 2: Well, the, it was

pro se versus an attorney.

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And the guy, I think he did say stupid

shit, you know, said it real low.

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But then his attorney's like, your

Honor, he just said stupid shit.

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And I just thought,

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Speaker: so here's the thing though.

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As an attorney, if you do something

in a lazy way or you object to

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something and you don't, you

can't cite the rule or the proper

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objection, which almost never happens.

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Now, if you had a judge that

said, okay, what's the objection?

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You know, you don't

get to just say object.

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You have to tell me what it

is, and then tell me, and you

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are stunned and think, oh shit.

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You guarantee the attorney next time.

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And every time after that,

they're gonna come in and they're

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gonna know their objections.

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Mm-hmm.

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It comes from the top.

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If I agree, people are getting lazy

and sloppy with the rules and stuff,

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it's because the expectations aren't

there and they're not held to the

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rules and it, it's just human nature.

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Mm-hmm.

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, When I've practiced in other jurisdictions

and they have certain rules that we don't

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have, some certain procedures, things

that may not be substantive, but they

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do things differently here or there.

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I've come out of it and just like,

okay, I'm gonna remember that for

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every time I go in here, I'm not

gonna make that mistake again.

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Yeah.

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Or I'm gonna introduce myself in

the way that everyone else does.

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You.

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It's pretty easy to program excellence

in procedure and evidentiary

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rules and all of that stuff.

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You don't have to be a brilliant

attorney to get your head around the

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evidentiary rules and put them on the

record correctly and preserve Yep.

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Issues on appeal for your clients

by making the right objection.

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It's just,

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Speaker 2: but are you ever, if you're not

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Speaker: expected to do it, but from

the judge, why are you gonna bother?

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That's just the skills that are lost.

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Speaker 2: It is.

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But have you ever been like a tattletale.

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Been like, your Honor,

you just said stupid shit,

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Speaker: your

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Speaker 2: Honor.

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I don't know.

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I was just like, it was pitiful, pathetic.

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I was, I

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Speaker: was always appalled by that.

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Yeah.

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I would, I was always appalled by that.

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If I, the, it was super frustrating, but

I also realized that I had the other side.

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Yeah.

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If, when I am saying something

and making an argument there.

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Making an appeal to meanness or fairness

and not making a legal argument.

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Mm-hmm.

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Then I know that I'm winning.

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Speaker 2: Exactly like you had him.

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He said it, everybody knew he said it.

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He said stupid shit.

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'cause he just lost.

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Speaker: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And you won

and it's like, your honor.

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Yeah.

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, I saw one too.

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I emailed you about this 'cause

my phone died when I went down

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there after I got mad and decided

to drive down to court Watch.

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And I was like, and you know how,

what an addict I am to my phone.

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But I was like, oh my

God, I gotta stay here.

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Wonder

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Speaker: why it died.

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Speaker 2: I know because I went down

there 'cause I was expecting court.

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The screen hadn't been off in

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Speaker: 13 hours.

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Seriously.

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Speaker 2: I'm just sitting

there texting everybody.

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Judge just denied me access to court.

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I drove down there.

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I'm texting lawyers, TikTok, judge.

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One.

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, When I was sitting outside, I told the

sheriff, I don't know if I told you this.

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I was like, I expect you come out here

and tell me every single time when a

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case is called, one of the attorneys

is like, what did Denise do to you now?

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But anyway, this is why we're sitting

in the hallway, I guess, while you

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Speaker: were sitting

over there in person.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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I mean, all the lawyers

came up, you know, I, I

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Speaker: along, that's how you

know along wasn't watching TikTok.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I get along with

almost all of 'em, but, . Anyway,

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so we, there was a hearing and with

an FOC, the TikTok judge comes out.

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First thing she says is, , ms.

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So-and-so are you A GAL or an FOC,

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YouTube.

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So you can see his facial expressions

and it's like, look at the file.

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Speaker: That's not a

meaningless minor distinction.

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Yes, it is a, this determines how we

go about presentation of evidence.

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And it, it factors into every other

part of this hearing, and it's right

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there on every document, single

document in that case file from the

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ones that's right under the cover.

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To the ones on the last page

and very easily discernible.

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Speaker 2: So her staff,

listen, this is what you do.

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Okay?

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You gotta help her out.

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She can't get there early and

she can't get there on time

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and she can't read apparently.

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But on the front of it, oh my God.

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You put petitioner and then you put a

little arrow and then you put their name

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and the attorney representing that person.

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Then you put respondent, and then

you put a little arrow and then

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you put their name, and then you

put the attorney representing them.

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Then you put the child's attorney

and in bold capital letters you

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write F, then you write O, and

then you write C if it's an FOC.

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And if it's a GAL, you write G and

then you write A, and then you write L.

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Speaker: Yeah.

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But do you also need to include the

definition of each one of those so

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they're not used interchangeably

like they are so often?

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Speaker 2: Oh, oh my goodness.

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You'd have to be high level to get

that joke, but that is so true.

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The, the judges sometimes I

don't think know the difference.

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Speaker: It's, well, if you were

one of the ones that practiced a

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lot of your career during a time

where they were both used the same.

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I could get for the first little while

after they were, the court case came down

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and they were separated out, but it's been

over a decade now since that happened.

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They, if we, it, there's a bare minimum,

we should all know the difference.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's one of those

things too, it's like, you know, if.

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We had this platform that's

obviously growing and growing

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and growing and growing.

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Three months anniversaries

tomorrow, literally streaming

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in all 50 states, downloaded in

13 countries, four continents.

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Everyone, like people in

eight in Singapore are hearing

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about the TikTok judge.

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Okay.

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Speaker: I I, that, that just

goes to prove that they're just

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in shit going on, on throughout

the world right now, apparently.

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Speaker 2: Or that family

court is a problem everywhere.

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Okay.

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I'm

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Speaker: kidding.

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Speaker 2: No, I know.

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Yeah,

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Speaker: no, of course.

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Speaker 2: But, , you just gotta have

a pep talk and just, you know, just

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today, every single hearing I have,

I'm gonna know whether or not the

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child's attorney is a GAL or FOC.

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That's just set the bar.

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Well, sure.

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You know, and then you give

I TikTok, judge, I will give

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you a $25 Sephora gift card.

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If you can make it one week with properly

knowing if the person is a GAL or FOC,

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Speaker: oh my Lord, I

don't bet against her.

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I've learned that lesson.,

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But you know what, one of the reasons

this happens, I think honestly

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is the same people are appointed

on virtually every case for both.

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So, you know, you're just like, okay,

well there's, there are kids issues.

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I'm gonna see this person, that

person or these all over there.

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, The, you know, it, it's, it's

gonna be the same people.

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You know, your FOC on the case that was

called right before this, when you're

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probably GAL on the one after which, which

frigging role are you doing now since

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I've appointed you on every single case?

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Yeah.

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And by the way.

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First, tell me whether you're FOC and

or your GAL, and then see if you can

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remember on the spot without looking

down at the thing, the client's name.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah.

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Can

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Speaker: you remember the

kid's name without flipping

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through your file to read it?

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Bet you can't.

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'cause you've got 500 cases

that you've been appointed on

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Speaker 2: and that these are

people that are being appointed

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to represent children's.

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Best interest or be investigative

for the children's best

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interest or child, whatever.

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Yeah.

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That don't know the kids' names

at hearings that are billing

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hundreds of dollars an hour,

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Speaker: getting age wrong

or mispronouncing them

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in such a way that like

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Speaker 2: insulting,

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Speaker: you've got the, you've got the

parents who might've spent, have got

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spent thousands of dollars by the time

you're in a hearing on the GAL and.

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You want them because the judge

has given you the authority to boss

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the parents around and assert your

parenting style on this family, and

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you want them to actually follow it.

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Maybe they'd have some respect

for what you have to say.

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If you could actually learn to pronounce

the kid's name correctly or remember

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what it is before you're sitting there

at the hearing and have to look through

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your notes to figure out the kid's name.

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That's pretty pathetic, but

it happens all the time.

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Speaker 2: All the time.

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Again, get a Post-it note

out there for your staff.

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Okay.

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On the front of your file that

you're carrying to court, write down

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two children named Joe and Jimmy.

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You know?

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Yeah.

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It's like, it's not rocket science.

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, But this is gonna piss you off.

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I don't even know.

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Sometimes I don't think, , Hugh reads all

my text messages and emails and I can't

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imagine why 'cause I send like 1400.

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That,

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Speaker: that actually isn't true.

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I, I do.

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Speaker 2: No, I'm kidding.

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, I'm joking, but the email I sent you

from court, the opening line, I don't

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think I can say it here 'cause it

is kind of probably inappropriate.

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Do you remember?

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Speaker: Oh, on the day

you were over there?

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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I said my phone died.

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I've been listening to

her talk Think for Oh

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Speaker: yeah.

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Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: So, , but this happened,

so it was a hearing that was

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not on time, I don't think.

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Maybe it was 'cause something

had been canceled before.

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We have one lawyer, one pro se

parent, a attorney represented

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the child, which was an FOC.

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, And guess what happened?

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FOC stayed in the room

during the entire testimony.

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Speaker: Oh, no, no, no.

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I remember you.

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I.

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Oh my God.

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Yeah, you, you were, you talked

about segregation of witnesses.

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You talked about FOC staying in the

room, and I just, I do remember that.

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I think I've tried to block it

out because it's just so basic.

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And if it weren't basic enough, if

it weren't something that everyone

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:

should know, there's now published

case law that says, Hey, guess what?

393

:

You have to do this, like this separation

of these people from the courtroom.

394

:

May not be in the statute.

395

:

It's assumed that everyone knows

the civil rules of separating

396

:

witnesses, but now it's in case law.

397

:

This is the law.

398

:

You don't allow these people in there.

399

:

And this law came out very, very recently.

400

:

And they all should know about it.

401

:

Yeah.

402

:

Why are you leaving this person in

the room to hear everyone's testimony

403

:

and change what they're going to say

as a witness based on what they hear?

404

:

Speaker 2: And why are witness, I mean,

witnesses can't be listening to fact

405

:

testimony when they're gonna testify.

406

:

No, it's again, so basic.

407

:

But here is my question.

408

:

Question.

409

:

, The rule was not invoked.

410

:

And you know, listeners, the rule invoking

the rule is the separation of witnesses.

411

:

That's what it means.

412

:

Yeah.

413

:

But the rule was not invoked, but.

414

:

It's fascinating because does the FOC

have an ethical obligation to separate

415

:

themselves knowing that witnesses

shouldn't hear other witnesses?

416

:

I don't know the answer.

417

:

Speaker: I mean, I don't know if it's an

ethical, ethical issue, but let's just

418

:

say you feel very strongly and you have

testimony that you believe is necessary

419

:

to protect the interests of your client.

420

:

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

421

:

Speaker: Which is kind of

your job, but let's just say.

422

:

It's a safety concern, right?

423

:

Mm-hmm.

424

:

If you are not sent out, someone

could then object to you testifying.

425

:

Speaker 2: Yeah.

426

:

Speaker: So

427

:

Speaker 2: true.

428

:

Speaker: If you really want to do

your job and get that across, maybe

429

:

avoid being excluded because the

judge forgot to follow the rules.

430

:

Speaker 2: Here's the thing, though,

I don't, and I don't know the answer.

431

:

If you don't invoke the

rule, can you object?

432

:

I don't know the, I don't know.

433

:

Speaker: Yeah, I want, I wanna

take a look at the recent court,

434

:

because it, right, it was the case.

435

:

Did it say that the judge erred by

not excluding the FOC after there

436

:

was an objection or just by not

excluding the FOC and that case?

437

:

So that's, that's interesting.

438

:

That's, that's a really good point.

439

:

Speaker 2: The case is white v Cole,

and it is fascinating too, because

440

:

it's overturned on other issues,

but then the court goes into like a

441

:

diatribe saying, Hey y'all, you gotta

be mindful of due process, basically.

442

:

Also,

443

:

Speaker: VanGansebe.

444

:

Speaker 2: Basically, yeah, goes into that

445

:

Speaker: too.

446

:

I mean, because I made the objection.

447

:

FOC stayed in as a published opinion.

448

:

I don't remember if they had

to get into that because it was

449

:

overturned on other grounds too.

450

:

But I think, I think it gets into that.

451

:

So you've got multiple published

cases, cases that talk about this,

452

:

Speaker 2: but I think like if you're in a

criminal trial, you don't invoke the rule.

453

:

I would argue that they waived objecting.

454

:

Now at the same time, in a real trial,

in the real world with a jury, you're

455

:

not going to have , you don't want the

witness to have been in there because

456

:

then the other side's gonna be like, no

wonder Jim said the same thing as Joe.

457

:

Jim was listening to Joe Testify.

458

:

Yeah.

459

:

That's devastating from

a jury's perspective.

460

:

Like you want the rule invoked

in all criminal proceedings,

461

:

regardless of if you're on, , the

Commonwealth side or the defense side.

462

:

Yeah, because you, that's

like, juries don't like that.

463

:

Like, wait a second.

464

:

Yeah, of course.

465

:

You said what he said,

you just heard him say it.

466

:

It's not rocket science.

467

:

Again, basic,

468

:

Speaker: but when you're not dealing

with a jury, you're not dealing with

469

:

the issues with like a mistrial.

470

:

Yeah.

471

:

When you, I mean, I think one of the

reasons, and we talked about in the

472

:

last podcast, the procedure, you pointed

out that there are more rules that

473

:

have to be followed in civil cases.

474

:

Mm-hmm.

475

:

But the consequences of not following

them are different in criminal cases

476

:

when you have a jury because not

following something where the, the

477

:

judge is both the fact finder and the

the has to make the conclusions of law.

478

:

It's not a mistrial, you're not throwing

the whole thing out the same way as

479

:

if you've missed one of those rules

and a jury overhears something and you

480

:

can, someone could, could, request a

mistrial and get it and the whole thing

481

:

has to be done Again, wasting money,

resources, time, you know, all of that.

482

:

Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I just had an idea.

483

:

We should literally,

this is so random, but

484

:

do you know what has to happen

in order for Jeopardy to attach?

485

:

Speaker: Oh, jeopardy.

486

:

Oh, oh gosh.

487

:

No.

488

:

I have probably have to dust off my notes

from studying for the bar since I've

489

:

never practiced criminal law that way.

490

:

Speaker 2: I didn't know until

like six months into being a public

491

:

defender, but it is actually Jeopardy

attaches when the jury's sworn in.

492

:

Their oath to swear in.

493

:

And I actually had a case.

494

:

Oh, so even if you could have,

that's when Jeopardy attaches.

495

:

I had a case one time,

assault 4th jury trial.

496

:

We, , swore in the jury did voir dire.

497

:

It was an assault case.

498

:

The victim showed up in the middle

of voir dire banging on the door.

499

:

Shit faced drunk, got arrested.

500

:

My guy got, they obviously.

501

:

Jury.

502

:

I mean, jeopardy is attached and the case

dismissed it 'cause he couldn't testify.

503

:

It was hysterical, but I digress.

504

:

Oh my gosh.

505

:

But anyway, so I was so nervous too.

506

:

My guy swore he didn't do it and

this guy showed up shit faced.

507

:

, But, , oh my God.

508

:

Yeah, you'll

509

:

Speaker: take that.

510

:

Take that any day.

511

:

Speaker 2: I just had a random thought.

512

:

We always have like business ideas,

but seriously we should do like

513

:

flashcards or like a game where

we do like, , legal knowledge.

514

:

And like do it for mock trial or do it

for lawyers or like make a game out of it.

515

:

We've talked about that

from the beginning.

516

:

Yeah, that'd be fine.

517

:

I digress.

518

:

We'll talk about something else.

519

:

Yeah.

520

:

, But anyway, so FOC stayed in the room.

521

:

I don't think that this

person should have done that.

522

:

, It was an interpreter case, which

is particularly painful just

523

:

because the flow never gets right.

524

:

Yeah.

525

:

It's not anybody's fault

or anything like that.

526

:

It's

527

:

Speaker: tough.

528

:

Yeah, it's tough.

529

:

But

530

:

Speaker 2: the flow was very off

and I thought it was a slam dunk.

531

:

Case.

532

:

I don't know what the ruling

is gonna be, but I digress.

533

:

But Denise, get to work on time.

534

:

Separate witnesses.

535

:

Speaker: Yeah,

536

:

Speaker 2: no, get to work on time.

537

:

Oh, I'll give you, I don't

even know what I'll do.

538

:

I'll probably, I, I gotta think, but

I'll do something very nice for you

539

:

if you get to work on time, five days

in a row, you know, whether it's an

540

:

FOC or GAL and you separate witnesses.

541

:

I mean, I'm talking gourmet.

542

:

Okay.

543

:

I'm talking like high

level makeup products.

544

:

I'm just more than 29.99

545

:

per product.

546

:

Speaker: I, I will tell you that that

separation of witnesses with FOCs was a

547

:

problem in every single division that I

can remember trying a case in front of.

548

:

And it was something that I kicked

and screamed about, and as I got

549

:

further along in my career, I just.,

550

:

It was a hill that I would die on.

551

:

Mm-hmm.

552

:

Because it's, it's so important.

553

:

It's so basic.

554

:

Basic, but.

555

:

I mean, you would just get

told, I'm not doing it.

556

:

He can stay in the room.

557

:

She can stay in the room, move on Mr.

558

:

Barrow.

559

:

And it's like everything we do

after this is, is problematic.

560

:

There's so many problems to this, and

it's not just a problem for this hearing.

561

:

Like if you were at a criminal

trial, oh, we get a mistrial, or this

562

:

happens and something gets dismissed.

563

:

It's the fact that you've

appointed this person who's gonna

564

:

stay in the case for this long.

565

:

I've got someone coming in here to testify

about some things that this FOC didn't do

566

:

or said, and we have the proof and they're

gonna change their story and all by

567

:

listening and it's gonna affect everything

that happens for the rest of this case.

568

:

This one, separation of witnesses

issue just has long lasting

569

:

effects and I would just.

570

:

Deaf ears all the time.

571

:

Yeah.

572

:

Always left in almost every trial I had.

573

:

We had FOCs left in the courtroom.

574

:

Speaker 2: I have a dumb question.

575

:

Did this happen in other

counties or just Louisville?

576

:

Speaker: Oh, other counties.

577

:

Speaker 2: Really?

578

:

Speaker: Oh gosh.

579

:

Some other counties.

580

:

So smaller counties are even less

people that are appointed and that

581

:

you kind of get that they're just less

people practicing generally in family

582

:

court and in a lot of really small

counties, you get people, most people

583

:

to make a living have to be general

practitioners and do all kinds of law.

584

:

Mm-hmm.

585

:

So you find someone that'll

take those appointments.

586

:

They almost become like court staff.

587

:

Yeah.

588

:

You see those people going in and

out of the back and naturally clients

589

:

think, oh, they must be working for the

judge 'cause they're just so, so close.

590

:

But.

591

:

It just creates this atmosphere where

they sort of have their spot to sit over

592

:

in the courtroom and they chime in where

they want and they're just always left in.

593

:

Especially in the counties where you have

motion hour, where someone will bring a

594

:

motion and then you have a mini hearing.

595

:

Yeah.

596

:

Which actually counts as a hearing.

597

:

And that FOC is always just

kind of sitting there and they

598

:

say, oh, miss so-and-so, or Mr.

599

:

So-and-So you on this case,

what do you think about this?

600

:

And they've listened to all

the testimony, but again.

601

:

It comes down to the question, is it, is

it an error if no one invokes the rule?

602

:

Because in those counties.

603

:

I do it, but , I usually requested

a full hearing on a different date.

604

:

I didn't like those motion hour hearings.

605

:

, But, if no one is actually

requesting they be excluded,

606

:

Speaker 2: I don't know.

607

:

And I did talk to another

attorney the other day.

608

:

Oh, I'm gonna find out

609

:

Speaker: here as soon as

we're finished recording.

610

:

I'm interested.

611

:

It's

612

:

Speaker 2: really fascinating and I do

think we should have like a debate on

613

:

that and then try to, because I wanna

give some attorneys too, you know, when

614

:

the law changes, it's like, okay, you

do have to, when we get new published

615

:

opinions or unpublished opinions.

616

:

You know, you have to pivot.

617

:

Like there are things you used to do that

you can't do anymore and blah, blah, blah.

618

:

Yeah.

619

:

Um,

620

:

Speaker: it's your job to

be up to speed on those.

621

:

Yeah.

622

:

And some of these cases that

talk about the exclusion of

623

:

witnesses talk about due process.

624

:

Mm-hmm.

625

:

Talk about how fundamental this is.

626

:

It's, yeah.

627

:

The, it's, it's not like.

628

:

Some nuanced gray area, right?

629

:

This is pretty basic in black and white.

630

:

Speaker 2: And this attorney said,

if I were an FOC, I would not attend

631

:

motion hour, and I would stay outside

during a hearing period because I

632

:

don't wanna get sued for violating,

or I don't wanna have a malpractice,

633

:

or I don't wanna have anything.

634

:

And I just think that's what the rules,

and I think you're gonna have real

635

:

troubles in FOC actually justifying

your bill for coming to motion

636

:

hour after some of these rulings.

637

:

I

638

:

Speaker: mean, and, and the

whole idea that it's not in the

639

:

civil rules that you have to.

640

:

Copy.

641

:

An FOC.

642

:

They're, if they're not acting

as an attorney in the case, yeah.

643

:

They, you copying them on all the

pleadings and then billing them.

644

:

Billing for reading pleadings.

645

:

Like if you have.

646

:

Let's say I write a rule 11 that

goes through, , and this is sort of

647

:

extreme example, but goes through the

conversations from here to here on a

648

:

discovery issue that has nothing to

do with the kids and I gotta copy the

649

:

FOC and they're gonna bill for that.

650

:

It's bullshit.

651

:

Yeah.

652

:

And, and, and, and if I don't

copy them on it, someone objects

653

:

to the judge hearing that motion.

654

:

'cause I didn't copy the FOC.

655

:

That happens too.

656

:

And I'm like.

657

:

Who cares, number one, they're not a

party, they're a court appointed expert.

658

:

If the court appointed an accountant,

I would copy the accountant.

659

:

If they appointed someone to

sell the house, I wouldn't be

660

:

copying them on pleadings anyway.

661

:

I've always found it to be weird.

662

:

It wasn't hard, especially with electronic

service to just, everyone gets it

663

:

anyway, so I mean it, yeah, whatever, but

664

:

Speaker 2: still it's just

a waste of people's money.

665

:

Like you don't need to have an attorney.

666

:

In my opinion.

667

:

I think FOCs are completely worthless.

668

:

In my opinion, in my opinion,, they're,

669

:

Speaker: they're, , contract judges.

670

:

Yeah.

671

:

It's outsourcing.

672

:

It's outsourcing the work.

673

:

Mm-hmm.

674

:

And I can understand the inclination

to do it, and they can certainly

675

:

spend a whole lot more time than

the judge can finding facts, but.

676

:

That doesn't mean that it it's proper

and that it's, yeah, I, I have, I have

677

:

the same problems with it that you do.

678

:

Speaker 2: Oh, and then

really quick, we'll wrap up.

679

:

There was a change.

680

:

I did not know this.

681

:

, Not all domestic violence cases

are, are public any longer.

682

:

I did not know that there was a.

683

:

And I need to research this.

684

:

I talked with a different attorney

that said, yeah, there's a new Supreme

685

:

Court rule that is obviously we knew

for domestic violence if kids are

686

:

involved, they're appointing A GAL.

687

:

Speaker: Yep.

688

:

Speaker 2: But now there are

cabinet involvement, so it's

689

:

automatically confidential.

690

:

Did you know that?

691

:

I did not know that.

692

:

That's practicing.

693

:

I

694

:

Speaker: did, but I didn't remember

when, when we talked about it earlier.

695

:

I had heard that and I, but it

was something, , the, it changed

696

:

while I was still practicing,

but I don't know that I did much.

697

:

Domestic violence work.

698

:

Mm-hmm.

699

:

Since it changed.

700

:

Yeah.

701

:

I think I had one or two hearings

where the GAL provision, you know,

702

:

came into play, but I honestly wasn't

paying attention to the, to the other

703

:

part in what I did because I avoided

the hell out of hearings on those

704

:

things no matter what side I was on.

705

:

Yeah.

706

:

'cause you never know what's gonna happen.

707

:

But yeah, I, I did know that.

708

:

I just.

709

:

I had completely forgotten it,

710

:

Speaker 2: which I think is

somewhat scary to just think about.

711

:

We've got more secret courtrooms and to

all the cabinet workers following along

712

:

and encouraging us and coming up to me

in court and getting to work on time.

713

:

You are the best.

714

:

I love you, judge y.com.

715

:

We have a new episode that will be

coming out on Friday where we are

716

:

going to drink beers and bitch.

717

:

Speaker: Yep.

718

:

Speaker 2: Gonna be fun.

719

:

All right.

720

:

Thank y'all.

721

:

Yep.

722

:

Speaker: See ya.

723

:

Next call.

724

:

We need some justice, justice, justice.

725

:

And I wanna ring bells in public.

726

:

I wanna ring bes in public nor crowd.

727

:

Yeah, but I To the fo Yeah.

728

:

I To the fo Yeah.

729

:

I to the fo fo teaser.

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About the Podcast

The JudgeMental Podcast
From the Creators of Judge-y
The JudgeMental Podcast features two attorneys, Hugh and Christine, who bring over three decades of combined litigation experience to the mic. Now venturing into a bold new initiative—"Judge-y", a website and soon-to-be app—they aim to give lawyers and litigants a platform to evaluate judges and promote accountability within the judiciary.

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