Episode 33

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Published on:

20th Oct 2025

EP 33 Locked In

Episode 33: Locked In

Welcome to another candid episode of The JudgeMental Podcast with your hosts, Hugh and Christine—the minds behind the "judge-y" app, dedicated to bringing transparency and accountability to the courtroom.

This week, Christine shares her wild experience of being literally locked inside a public courtroom—multiple times! The hosts dive into the bizarre realities of courtroom access, fire hazards, and the sometimes chaotic state of court management. They discuss the importance of public access to court proceedings, the challenges of hybrid (Zoom/in-person) hearings, and the impact of late judges on litigants, attorneys, and the justice system as a whole.

Key topics include:

The ongoing struggle for transparency in the courts

The consequences of denying public access to hearings

The realities of court delays and their effect on domestic violence cases

Navigating courtroom dynamics, from pro se litigants to attorney strategies

The need for better communication, preparation, and respect from the bench

Plus, get a behind-the-scenes look at the making of "judge-y" and the hosts’ mission to empower the public to hold judges accountable.

Tune in for sharp insights, honest critiques, and a few laughs as Hugh and Christine continue their quest to save the system—one episode at a time.

Learn more and join the movement at judge-y.com.

The JudgeMental Podcast: Where justice gets judged.

Transcript
Speaker:

You are listening to

The Judgemental Podcast.

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We're Hugh and Christine, the Minds

Behind Judgy, the revolutionary app

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that empowers you to judge the judges.

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It's pastime for judicial accountability

and transparency within the courts.

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Prepare for sharp insights, candid

critiques, and unshakable honesty from

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two lawyers determined to save the system.

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We need some justice.

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Justice, my fine justice.

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And I wanna ring, be in public.

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I wanna ring, be in public crowd.

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Yeah.

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Christine: welcome to Judgmental podcast.

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We had a debacle this

week, to say the least.

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Hugh: Well, we, yeah, you, it's

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Christine: always me.

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You know, I got, I

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Hugh: got to hear about it by text

and, I misread the text and thought

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you were locked out of the court.

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Oh.

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And I was like, what?

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Christine: No, actually locked

into court like at it's even

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least three if not four times.

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Hugh: That's just so weird.

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Christine: It is bizarre.

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And it was an open courtroom

and there wasn't the sheriff or

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bailiff standing by the door.

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I mean, it felt like a fire hazard.

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It also just felt like a shit show.

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But to start from the beginning, I

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Hugh: don't think.

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Feels like a fire hazard.

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I think it's legitimately a fire hazard.

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Christine: Yeah.

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And, and so in our courts too, in

Louisville, , they're deadbolted.

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And so you would've had to take my

understanding from the fire code

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is that you have to be at a public

building, corporate building,

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commercial building is the word.

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, You have to be able to exit in one motion

in the event of a fire or an emergency.

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And so deadbolts.

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Is like, is not the same

as pushing the door open.

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Yep.

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Those are two motions.

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, But how, yeah, you could have

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Hugh: something that locks

from the outside, but you just

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have to be able to push it in.

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But like a

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Christine: school,

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Hugh: do you have the, in the courtroom?

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Do, can you turn the deadbolt

or It's done, it's done by

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the sheriff's key, isn't it?

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Christine: No.

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That you could just turn the dead.

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You could turn.

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Okay.

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Well that's

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Hugh: not as bad.

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Christine: It's not as bad.

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That's, yeah, but it's just, it was a

weird thing that I've never seen happen.

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And, how I got there and how I got

locked into a public courtroom.

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, Let's start from the beginning, I guess.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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Alright.

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So you were, you were over

there just court watching.

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Yeah.

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Well, you wanted to be

court watching on Zoom.

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Christine: Yeah.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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So

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Christine: Monday in Kentucky we've got

motion hour and you and I both attended,,

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we decide randomly we follow cases.

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We've got a lot of moving

pieces behind the scenes.

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Yeah.

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But we decided to go to Judge

Ogden, that's division four.

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, She is the baby case if

you're following from home.

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Yep.

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, And a plethora of other cases that

have been overturned recently.

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White View Coal.

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And there's another big one

that, oh, it starts with a v.

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It's not coming to mind.

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Boy, we

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Hugh: need a drinking game with the words

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Christine: LOL We do.

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And so I watched her court and

there were a couple things to note.

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I mean, there was one case about an

FOC that I thought was fascinating

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because it was an older case and the FOC

needed an order to meet with the child.

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I kind of, I don't know.

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There was something about it that just

made, sparked my interest because why

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Hugh: would you need an

order to meet with the child?

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Like, isn't that the whole purpose?

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Right?

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Christine: And so it was an older case and

the person had been appointed for a long

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period of time, but hadn't met the kid,

and you're just like, what's happening?

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I don't know, but we need a deep dive.

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I don't have enough information.

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Then obviously we had

the billionaire case on.

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That's on every single week.

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I mean, you've got numerous

attorneys, G-A-L-F-O-C.

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I think it'll be probably

between the parties.

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It'll be a million dollar

divorce, if not more.

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Hugh: Who's on that case?

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Christine: Attorneys?

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Yes.

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, Are we really gonna go there?

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Oh, sorry.

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No, I guess not.

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Hugh: I, I missed it because as soon

as, pretty much immediately after I

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got off, I mean, got onto, motion hour.

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We had, , the support poles that hold

all of our light and camera equipment.

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One fell, hit the next one, it fell,

hit the table, took the mics down.

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It was, it was fun.

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Christine: Yeah.

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Oh, act

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Hugh: scarred up the wall, everything.

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So I had to jump off and didn't,

didn't get back on again until seven.

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So quite a bit of time later.

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Christine: Yeah.

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And you know what's silly?

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I forgot about this.

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I actually went in person.

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I was there in person 'cause you

texted me a picture of our studio

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collapse and I was like, what the hell?

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And I was in, , Ogden's motion hour and

it was just, it was one of those, you

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could tell the vibe was different when

I got there, like, you know, and I do

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think these judges know we're watching.

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And again, I don't wanna.

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What's the word I'm looking for?

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Let, let me put this in

perspective like this.

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I get messages on the reg

talking about some of the judges'

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extracurricular activities, things

they do when they're off the bench.

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Gossip, rumors.

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I want no part of it.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Don't share any of it.

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Don't post about what they

do on their private time.

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If they wanna have 17 margaritas in a pack

of Marlboro Lights, I hope they invite me.

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You know what I'm saying?

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, That's their time.

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Hugh: Yep.

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Agreed.

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Christine: So I'm just watching.

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Open court to see what's going on,

rulings, things of that nature.

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, But you could tell she was very nervous.

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, She is generally respectful, I

think, at almost all times to people.

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Oh

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Hugh: yeah.

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Very soft spoken.

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Like I've seen her, , what she calls

it, remanding, remanding into custody,

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like locking someone up and the

person had no idea until the sheriff

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was putting the cuffs on behind.

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He's like, wait, what's going on?

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'cause she said.

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Well, you were supposed to purge

yourself by today, and I know

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you've paid something, but I'm gonna

have to go ahead and remand you.

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Okay.

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And he's like, oh, okay.

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That's fine.

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And I sudden the sheriff comes

up behind him and grabs him

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and he's like, wait, what?

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Yeah.

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And she, she stays so calm and

friendly during the whole thing

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that it's, it was just surreal.

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It, it had to have blown his mind.

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Christine: Yeah.

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When she first got on the bench, , I was.

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Talking with another judge.

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And this judge was like Christine, she's

literally thanking people for coming to

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dependency, neglect, and abuse court.

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Hugh: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And it's blessed her

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Christine: heart.

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I mean, she is a very softspoken, ah, you

know, and it is what it is, what it is.

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, But anyway, so I called you.

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I saw our studio had broke, , and then

I called you when I left and I was

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like, Hugh, I can't sit here all day.

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This is painful.

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You know what I mean?

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That's right.

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We had that little, yeah.

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Hugh: So you said you, you

were gonna go eat something.

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Yeah.

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Hop on for later motion hours.

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I said Okay, that's fine.

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There were some things that were on later.

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Christine: Yeah.

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I

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Hugh: thought maybe I would do the same.

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And Yeah.

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Christine: And so, I think too,

it was like none of the cases, big

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cases that were following were on.

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Anyway, and we had a really busy week

before and we're working on the app.

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He's killing the app and by,

we're working on the app.

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I mean, Hugh, the tech

savvy, is working on the app.

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, But I'm taking meetings and promoting

and stuff like that, so I digress.

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But, so I just was like,

okay, I'll jump on seven.

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And I got put in a room, , and

then I had to talk to the court

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staff and it was like, Ms.

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Miller, what case are you here on today?

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And I was like, I'm just court watching.

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And I turned my camera on.

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I don't mind for them to see

me or anything like that.

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I was sitting in my dining

room, . And she was like, , we're

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no longer alone, court watchers.

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And I was like, what?

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So then I called

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Hugh: you

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Christine: on Zoom.

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Yeah.

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On Zoom.

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Hugh: Yep.

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Christine: So I called you and

like, you're not gonna believe this.

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And you know, obviously you

were like, what the hell?

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Hugh: Yep.

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Christine: But didn't they let you in?

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Hugh: No.

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Did the same thing.

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Extremely polite.

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Like I had some, you know, chit chatted

for a second and all that stuff, but it

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was just like that's, we're not doing it.

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We're not allowing people in.

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By Zoom you can come in person.

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Yeah.

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I was told we could come court watch in

person, but can't court watch by Zoom,

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which it didn't hit me immediately,

you know, to me that's not, you're

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not closing it completely off.

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But it took me back to

our discussion about.

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Remote court.

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Mm-hmm.

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And certainly that would be

closing off court if we were

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doing largely remote court.

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So it's sort of

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Christine: Yeah.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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Christine: Don't have public

court and deny people access.

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Denying transparency and

access is the first flag.

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I'm gonna tell you, it pissed me off.

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, And we had our heated debate about

Zoom Court, and I'm afraid, you know,

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as you know, and y'all know, when I

went to California, it really did.

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Yeah, mess with me a lot, messed with

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Hugh: me.

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And I wasn't even there.

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Christine: I saw what the future is

gonna be and the fact that this judge

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is like, oh, we just have a new policy.

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So I emailed.

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I'm like, okay, you know, miss so and so.

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'cause again, court staff, I

don't wanna get into their names.

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They work for the judge.

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Judge makes the call, , not their call to

close court or quote unquote lock me in.,

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But I was like, fuck it.

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I just drove down there.

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Well, you should have seen

the look on Denise Brown's

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face when I walked into court.

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And I just sat in the back,

you know, watched everything.

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And I was like, if she

wants to go, let's go.

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You know, don't play

games with me like that.

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If you're gonna deny access, I

wanna know what it is you're hiding.

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So I'll sit here all day.

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And all she's hiding is the

fact that she's not prepared and

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she doesn't know up from down.

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Hugh: You sat there pretty much all day.

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Christine: Yeah.

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Hugh: And then you went, , the next day.

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Christine: Yeah, I sat there,

a couple of her hearings, and I

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genuinely have been saying this

from the beginning In Louisville,

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we have louisville family court.com.

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I'm pretty sure it's their website, but

if you just Google Louisville Family

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Court, you'll go to their website.

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Hugh: No, Jefferson.

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Christine: Oh yeah, that's

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Hugh: right, sir.

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Yeah.

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Jefferson County Family Court.

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Christine: They, are conflating

their schedules, in my opinion.

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Like it'll say that there'll be

six hearings on, but a lot of those

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hearings are, be, have been continued or

they'll say they have a half day trial.

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And actually it will have been

continued or it would've will have

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been settled two weeks before, but

they just leave them on their calendar.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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I mean, on the one hand things do

tend to get continued last minute.

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Mm-hmm.

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When things get continued,

they get continued last minute.

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On the other hand, I know

that we needed more time.

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I, you know, when I was practicing

there would be times where we thought.

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We have some more issues.

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It'd be better if we have some more

time instead of waiting for them to

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pop up, let's call and let's, let's,

let's get a la ladder hearing date

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and we'll take it off the calendar.

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And then I would be going over there to

motion hour a month later, and it would be

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the week where my hearing was scheduled.

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And it's still on the calendar.

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Yep.

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Just left on there.

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So,

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Christine: and that they

appear quote unquote busy.

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, And that gets to our eight 30 docket.

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So Tuesday is her dependency,

neglect, and abuse docket.

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I went onto my TikTok.

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Obviously we call her the TikTok

judge because he wants TikTok fame

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and she secretly self recorded

the domestic violence hearing.

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You can go back and watch episodes

one three or you can just, you know,

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binge watch Kentucky Christine tiktoks

and I'll explain all that to you.

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, But so Tuesday dependency, neglection

abuse, I heard, , I can't confirm

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because it's closed court, but

I heard she was not on time.

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, I don't think it's a secret

that she's not timely.

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Is it?

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Hugh: Well, not a secret to me.

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Yeah.

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Unless I'm part of some inside club.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Christine: So Wednesday is her

domestic violence day and so I decided

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I'd get down there at eight 30.

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I packed me some little

snacks and stuff like that.

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'cause I was like, okay.

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I said, I found,

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Hugh: I see you heading off with

your lunchbox and yeah, I put mito

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Christine: cheese, little squares and

some Twizzlers, , and sparkling water

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because, you know, I get hangry when I

watch stupidity and I knew, you know, I

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can't take the bait or anything like that.

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And so I got down there eight 30.

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No one's there other than there

was like, you know, like litigants.

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Yeah.

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, 8 46, nobody, nine, nobody.

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So I'm doing a TikTok like

what's the over and under when

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she's gonna get on the bench.

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And

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Hugh: this, this is domestic

violence docket, right?

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Yeah.

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So this is where people that are

accused of domestic violence as,

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as, as well as the victims mm-hmm.

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Are all there.

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And they're sitting in the

same waiting area, I mean.

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When I was practicing, I would

have, it didn't matter which

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side I was on, my client was

going to go to a different floor.

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I was going to wait with them , and

then once the sheriff said, okay, you

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guys are next in line, I would bring

them down because you just don't,

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you don't want any words exchanged.

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You don't want anything happening.

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But most of the people in that

docket, I would say, I would say

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the great majority are per se.

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Yeah.

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Would you say, I mean, it's, it's a docket

where you just get a lot of people that

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aren't privately represented or one side

is, but have the, I think it's , the

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minor, the great minority of cases where

you have two attorneys that manage that.

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Yeah.

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So what you're dealing with, it's

those cases and the really contested

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dependency, neglect, and abuse cases

where you see someone have to hit the

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red button and all the sheriffs run out

and you gotta break up a fight out there.

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Yeah.

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That's when shit goes down and it's

a ticking time bomb and it like it.

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I know you posted something

and then talked about it's

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disrespectful when you're late.

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It's disrespectful for people are

showing up and so many people get a

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summons and say, eight 30 and you're

not there at eight 30, but it's a

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totally different animal when you have

this powder keg of domestic violence.

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And everybody packed in mm-hmm.

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To one space sitting there and

just waiting for you to show up.

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Christine: Yep.

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I mean, and then one of these, I say

kid, I mean he had to be maybe 19 or 20.

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He comes over to me 'cause no one's there.

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And I'm sitting there, you know,

acting like I've been there before.

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And he's like, am I in the right place?

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And it's just.

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Who do these people think they are, that

they can just waste other people's time.

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You know what I mean?

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And this kid was there before me.

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He gets a summons to be

at court at eight 30.

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Who knows?

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He, you know, I mean, you have

to get parking, you gotta pay a

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meter, or you gotta take the bus.

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You gotta get down there.

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And he's just like, you're petrified.

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You're in the wrong spot.

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Yeah.

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People don't realize too, like,

so we have these hallways.

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A lot of the questions when

you're an attorney, they'll

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stop, am I in the right place?

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Am I in the right place?

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'cause these courtrooms are big and

they don't know what's going on.

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Everyone talks to 'em like they're trash.

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And you know, not everyone,

but a lot of people do.

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I digress, but so guess how

late the TikTok judge was?

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Hugh: Hour and a half.

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Christine: One hour and 14 minutes late.

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Oh, wow.

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First case was called at 9 44

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and everybody's waiting and you

could just feel the energy too.

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You know what I mean?

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Hugh: But so, so the way

that it works is there are.

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There are cases that are on for eight 30

and there are multiple on for eight 30.

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Then there are multiple on for the

next round, which is what, 10 30?

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Nine 30.

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So the whole thing snowballs.

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So the people that were there for

nine 30 were gonna be behind all

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of the eight 30 people and their

stuff was gonna be even slower.

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And it's a, and this is.

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A result of how the, how the court

works and the judges trying to let

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everyone say what they need to say

so they can have a proper hearing.

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Mm-hmm.

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But even when you show up on time, it

is going to, by the time you get to 10

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30, you're not onto the 10 30 cases.

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Yep.

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If you have a full docket, just

because so many people are pro se.

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You are not getting structured testimony

straight to the point you're trying.

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And the judge has to elicit a lot of

what , the, , victim is saying to alleged.

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Make sure that they say, yeah,

yeah, that this alleging.

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, So they're gonna take longer

than you're planning for anyway.

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And that's just the way

that that docket works.

408

:

So if you start late, by the time you're

at that end of the docket, you are.

409

:

I mean, sometimes you're hours behind.

410

:

I've sat there.

411

:

I mean, Hugh, honestly, I would

tell my client if they were on

412

:

the nine 30 docket, I would be

like, we're gonna show up at:

413

:

Because your best bet in a lot of

divisions would be, maybe you'd get on

414

:

before lunch, but the nine 30 or the 10

o'clock people are gonna be after lunch.

415

:

Christine: Hugh, , she heard three,

she had called three cases by:

416

:

The first case.

417

:

So then,, you know, I got, I've got all

these people messaging me and blah, blah,

418

:

blah, and I'm on socials, you know, and

they're like, girl, she's watching you.

419

:

And they kept locking the damn

courtroom, you know, when the bailiff

420

:

comes out, they kept locking it again.

421

:

They wouldn't even let me go sit

in the conference rooms or anything

422

:

like that, which is also abnormal.

423

:

Yeah.

424

:

And , I kept saying like, it's not a

425

:

Hugh: confidential docket.

426

:

Christine: Yeah.

427

:

I kept saying, and this

is before the judge was.

428

:

I would if anyone even knew if

the judge was in the building.

429

:

'cause I keep asking, is the judge here?

430

:

Is the judge here and the sheriff's

like, God bless, leave me alone.

431

:

You know, I'm not answering your question.

432

:

He didn't say this out loud.

433

:

That was just the vibe I got.

434

:

Hugh: Yeah.

435

:

Christine: But anyway, she called her

first case and watching it, and I think

436

:

this is really important for you to do.

437

:

, Because, and I know when I first started,

I always think of how court proceedings

438

:

go from hearings I actually had.

439

:

Hugh: Yep, me too.

440

:

Christine: And so when you see pro se

or one attorney on the side, or, you

441

:

know, how this judge in particular,

in my opinion, has attorneys that she

442

:

likes and doesn't like and, you know,

she's kind of circles through them.

443

:

But the first hearing, she had

no clue what she was doing.

444

:

I mean, the alleged victim was on Zoom.

445

:

There was an attorney representing,

, the alleged perpetrator.

446

:

And the attorney had all these

exhibits, and the TikTok judge goes,

447

:

, ma'am, you know how she does ma?

448

:

She says, ma'am, ma'am, ma'am, ma'am,

you can't, you can't use these exhibits.

449

:

You have to be able to show 'em on Zoom.

450

:

And the attorney's like,

451

:

Hugh: was the attorney on Zoom?

452

:

Christine: No.

453

:

Hugh: So the attorney shows

up with proper exhibits?

454

:

Christine: Yes.

455

:

Hugh: Like ready to go?

456

:

Yeah.

457

:

Christine: So the person's on Zoom

and it was like, so ma'am on, you

458

:

know, cross was like, is this a copy

of this or is this a photo of this?

459

:

I don't wanna say the

specifics of the case.

460

:

It is public, but I wanna be respectful

for, you know, and ma'am, ma'am,

461

:

Hugh: so, so here's, here's

a hot tip for division seven.

462

:

If you are alleged to have committed

domestic violence, show up on Zoom

463

:

and no one can show you any evidence.

464

:

Yeah, apparently.

465

:

Christine: So then.

466

:

I'm sitting there.

467

:

I mean, you just gotta watch.

468

:

And I'm in shock.

469

:

Like, I'm just like, and the

attorney's kind of in shock and you

470

:

know, it's really difficult when the,

especially we know what it's like

471

:

to deal with this particular judge.

472

:

Yeah.

473

:

Like you have to be very careful

and walk on eggshells because

474

:

the judge has so much power.

475

:

So if you make her mad or call

her out for not knowing something.

476

:

I mean, you are increasing your client's

likelihood of losing, unfortunately.

477

:

Hugh: Yeah.

478

:

I mean that's a, that's a

general rule for judges.

479

:

But, I didn't ever, so I.

480

:

Division VII was always one of those

places where I would think that that

481

:

was happening, and it didn't ever seem

to affect what happened on the cases.

482

:

Like I would really get into an

argument with the judge on a ruling

483

:

on evidence that I thought was wrong.

484

:

Yeah.

485

:

And I knew that I could really

argue it and take my time

486

:

and try to go through and.

487

:

And make that argument and not feel

like it really affected things.

488

:

By the time the ruling came out, I saw

no sign that I had, I had made her angry.

489

:

So I I, there were certain divisions

that you knew it was gonna come back

490

:

to haunt you if you put up a fight.,

491

:

I never experienced that in seven.

492

:

I always felt, felt like, yeah, there's

493

:

Christine: common denominators.

494

:

If you were in division seven in my.

495

:

Opinion, I would hire a male attorney

and I would hire a white male attorney.

496

:

Hugh: Oh, okay.

497

:

I, that's

498

:

Christine: from my perspective, we

actually used to have a group chat and

499

:

we would get this one white male attorney

to cover our cases on motion hour.

500

:

'cause she's not gonna yell

Also if you are a female.

501

:

Hugh: Oh, I got yelled at.

502

:

Oh, I'm, I would be lying if

I said I didn't get yelled at.

503

:

And , we had heated arguments and

stuff, but it wasn't, she yells

504

:

Christine: at everybody.

505

:

She's, she's abusive.

506

:

Hugh: It was, but I knew what to expect

and I, and I honestly didn't feel like

507

:

there was any retribution for arguing

very hard on things that I believed.

508

:

And I knew that I had the latitude

to represent my client without it

509

:

coming back to hurt me in that court.

510

:

At least for me.

511

:

But I've only experienced it as a

white male because, yeah, and I don't

512

:

Christine: think everything's

about race and all that or gender,

513

:

any of those kind of things.

514

:

But in particular.

515

:

From my experience in observing things and

talking with people, she's particularly

516

:

hard on black female attorneys.

517

:

And if you pick up, went through

the phone book and looked that up,

518

:

I mean, I we'll corroborate that.

519

:

Also, if you're a female in her courtroom,

I would wear very minimal makeup.

520

:

I would not dress flashy.

521

:

You do not want to intimidate her.

522

:

In that capacity to make

her feel threatened.

523

:

And that's just a personal observation.

524

:

That's not legal advice,

that's just strategy advice.

525

:

Hugh: I,, I represent

a lot of high earners.

526

:

I wanted my high earners to

look respectful, but plain as

527

:

anything in that courtroom.

528

:

Yeah.

529

:

Well in, in a lot, in any of them.

530

:

And, . You know, I mean,

gender does play into it.

531

:

It does.

532

:

If you are a female going in front

of a female judge, I'm going to as an

533

:

attorney, advise you on demeanor and

the way you appear differently than

534

:

if you're in front of a male judge.

535

:

Yeah.

536

:

And it's just those dynamics exist in

humans that are gonna exist in judges.

537

:

You can't have judges that

are neutral and not a gen.

538

:

I mean, may what, whatever, but it's, but

you just have to know how to deal with it.

539

:

And that's sort of the art of, you

know, your, your attorney should be

540

:

helping you prep for those things.

541

:

Yeah.

542

:

You can't really get around.

543

:

Certain things because females

that only experience life as a

544

:

female, males only experience as a

female, they're gonna judge other

545

:

males through their own experience.

546

:

Yeah, yeah.

547

:

Differently than they're

gonna judge females.

548

:

'cause I've never lived as a female.

549

:

I would, you know, I might

have some of that too.

550

:

So I experienced it in there, but

no more than in a lot of places.

551

:

And in fact quite a bit less than in,

there's certain courts where it was just.

552

:

Oh my God.

553

:

You don't want to go in

front of this person with a

554

:

female client, but that Yeah.

555

:

Some, some older judges were even

worse than, , than the current

556

:

trial know what're talking about.

557

:

So,

558

:

Christine: So, but anyway,

so then we had this hearing.

559

:

It's a domestic violence hearing.

560

:

, At one point it seemed like she

was maybe filling something out,

561

:

which to me would be the DVO.

562

:

Sure.

563

:

Before even hearing the case.

564

:

Yeah.

565

:

But then she saw me and

then she put it down.

566

:

She could have been

writing something else.

567

:

Again, this is all

speculative Well, she could

568

:

Hugh: have been filling out the

parts you gotta fill out with and.

569

:

If you're gonna deny it,

you're just gonna mark denied.

570

:

Christine: You should not be

filling out court forms while

571

:

you're listening to testimony.

572

:

Mm-hmm.

573

:

In my opinion.

574

:

Hugh: Well, the A-D-A-H-D and me

would, I would be able to listen better

575

:

if I'm, if I'm just sitting there

without my hands doing something.

576

:

So,

577

:

Christine: yeah.

578

:

If that,

579

:

Hugh: if that's what's going on, I

could, I could sympathize with that.

580

:

A little bit.

581

:

Christine: I'm about to say

something that I'm, I don't want, I

582

:

don't wanna say so I won't say it.

583

:

I wouldn't put multitasking,

high up on her cognitive ability.

584

:

I digress.

585

:

So she is stops doing that.

586

:

And then so then she tells this

attorney like, ma'am, ma'am, ma'am, you

587

:

know, you can't have these exhibits.

588

:

So then there's more testimony.

589

:

More testimony.

590

:

Well then it's like.

591

:

Talking to the alleged perpetrators.

592

:

Do you have photos?

593

:

Oh yeah.

594

:

They're just on my phone.

595

:

And the judge is like, then instructing

the pro se person how to take a

596

:

screenshot, push this button, send them,

and then the judge is like, well, why

597

:

don't you just email 'em to our staff?

598

:

And then she says to the attorney, well,

can I go ahead and see your pictures?

599

:

None of this has been admitted.

600

:

None.

601

:

Nothing has been admitted.

602

:

So then the judge is just looking at the

exhibits that she hadn't let in from the

603

:

attorney and the woman on, , oh my gosh.

604

:

Zoom is like sitting there trying

to be like, , I can, your honor,

605

:

can I turn my phone on because, you

know, and like blah, blah, blah.

606

:

And so then the judge is like, , do

you guys just want, you need more time?

607

:

Let's just get a different date

after you all email me everything.

608

:

And she gave them a new date

609

:

after she made herself and

her staff a witness like.

610

:

They are.

611

:

You can't,

612

:

Hugh: yeah, I mean, my thoughts are

this, from an attorney's point of view,

613

:

if you're a private attorney and you

don't anticipate that someone could be

614

:

on Zoom at a hearing nowadays, and you

don't have the ability to share those

615

:

exhibits on the Zoom meeting from a

computer, even if you're there in person.

616

:

Then you should expect that you might not

be able to get any of your exhibits in

617

:

Christine: false.

618

:

No, you can't.

619

:

The court cannot deny

exhibits in a courtroom.

620

:

They have to have an order like W.

621

:

Like, what the fuck are you all doing?

622

:

Well, you, no, no, no.

623

:

Hold on.

624

:

You cannot.

625

:

Have a court proceeding where someone

goes down and this is a photo of where

626

:

I hit you and you go to court and you've

got a copy for the opposing party, A

627

:

copy for the court, they're on camera.

628

:

I can show you the photo like this.

629

:

And you can't say, ma'am,

ma'am, like guess like ma'am,

630

:

Hugh: are

631

:

Christine: you cr

632

:

Hugh: Well ma'am, and this is, this is

ignoring the fact that they have the

633

:

technology, they have the Elmo, which no

one seems to be trained to use because

634

:

I've gotten one can judge to use it.

635

:

I use it, yes.

636

:

So can I, but.

637

:

It's, you wanna talk about eye rolls

if you ask to use it and it slows

638

:

every, and it's just like, there is,

so they have this,, it's a camera

639

:

on an arm basically in it hook.

640

:

It's a projector.

641

:

It hooks up.

642

:

It doesn't project

643

:

Christine: well.

644

:

No.

645

:

It's like, it's like

an old school project.

646

:

You just like this.

647

:

It looks

648

:

Hugh: like a, yeah, it looks like

the old school projectors for

649

:

those of a certain age or older.

650

:

, Except for it just has a camera.

651

:

Yes.

652

:

And you put the document under

and it has a light and a camera

653

:

and it shows up on the screen.

654

:

I don't think though.

655

:

I think that it's hooked up properly

to show up on the big TV in the

656

:

courtroom so everyone can see it.

657

:

And on the judge's screen, I don't

know that it works well and properly is

658

:

integrated into the Zoom and they've only

had, what, five years, to sort that out.

659

:

But in my experience that they,

there was not a great way to have

660

:

physical evidence and to show it

on Zoom unless you just had the.

661

:

Digital copy, and I'm not saying that

if the attorney brings proper exhibits,

662

:

they shouldn't be able to get 'em on.

663

:

I'm not saying that, but

you have to anticipate how.

664

:

Badly.

665

:

The court is prepared to make

any of those accommodations.

666

:

I mean, you know, if you were going

in and you wanted to win that case,

667

:

you wouldn't want to be in that

situation that you had to watch.

668

:

It shouldn't have happened, but

you know that's going to happen.

669

:

No fair.

670

:

And you know, you say, okay,

well I've got the digital file.

671

:

I judge, can you turn on screen share?

672

:

I will share it so it'll be on the

screen and I can walk the witness through

673

:

it and it just solves the problem.

674

:

Christine: Yeah, but the thing is though,

is like they shouldn't have bifurcated

675

:

hearings or you have to have an order.

676

:

Like you can't amend the rules because we

wanna do zoom court so badly like it, you

677

:

know, bifurcated hearings are a shit show

and bifurcated, is that the right word?

678

:

Or where?

679

:

Hi hybrid.

680

:

One person's on Zoom,

one person is in person.

681

:

Those are nightmares to

have, if you have your stuff

682

:

Hugh: digital, it's not an issue.

683

:

I've never had an issue and I,

you know, again, my argument

684

:

why I liked Zoom Court is that.

685

:

Your evidence, as soon as you share

your screen becomes part of the record

686

:

immediately, and anybody that goes back

and looks at it to write an order later.

687

:

Now judges rule at the DVO hearing.

688

:

So in the DVO O Court, this is not an

issue, but any of the cases where you

689

:

expect a judge to go back and look at it,

or staff to go back and look at the video

690

:

three months later to write an order.

691

:

You having your stuff show up

on the screen as they watch and

692

:

them not having to dig through a

file gives you a huge advantage.

693

:

Christine: Yeah.

694

:

I mean, and I, again, in 10 years

it'll be ai, it'll be people in little

695

:

cubicles will be on Zoom court and no,

we won't require people No, and, and AI

696

:

Hugh: will replace the people.

697

:

Remember, we're all gonna

be, but I'm saying like,

698

:

Christine: who is going to be

watching these Zoom courts?

699

:

Because some person that wants to

do makeup on TikTok, apparently not.

700

:

You, is the nine.

701

:

Yeah.

702

:

Apparently not me

703

:

Hugh: or me.

704

:

Yeah,

705

:

Christine: I don't know.

706

:

I'm, I was so mad.

707

:

And then the second hearing,

708

:

Hugh: well let, let's,

I had one other thought.

709

:

So the judge would've been within

her right, to say, okay, you

710

:

have your stuff in the phone, you

can't get it here, you're on Zoom.

711

:

You don't get your evidence in.

712

:

Yeah.

713

:

And we, I'm here today to see the

evidence and there's been plenty of

714

:

judges I've practiced in front of that

have said, do you have your evidence?

715

:

Okay, show me.

716

:

Well, it's on my phone.

717

:

Okay, so you don't have

your evidence move on.

718

:

Mm-hmm.

719

:

And you would've lost that hearing.

720

:

So.

721

:

There I could definitely, I would

respect if a judge did that and

722

:

expect everyone to show up prepared.

723

:

However, when you have

a largely pro se docket.

724

:

Christine: Well's.

725

:

Just let's just think logically.

726

:

Let's think

727

:

Hugh: like having another hearing so

everybody can bring their evidence.

728

:

When someone may have been domestically

abused to err on the side of

729

:

caution, I don't, you know, but

730

:

Christine: No, no, but let's

just argue, problem solve.

731

:

That's the right, let's

use our little brains.

732

:

Okay.

733

:

How about at the

beginning of that is true.

734

:

The hearing we say hi.

735

:

My name is Judge Show, and so today

is a domestic violence hearing.

736

:

Is everyone prepared?

737

:

Thank you for coming.

738

:

Yeah, thank you for your participation

or in domestic violence, you know?

739

:

Yeah.

740

:

But you could say, is everyone

prepared with exhibits to go

741

:

forward with the hearing today?

742

:

And then you've then, so I could be like,

, I didn't know today was the hearing.

743

:

Is there any way I could get two weeks?

744

:

Okay.

745

:

Yeah,

746

:

Hugh: sure.

747

:

You ever see on motion hour?

748

:

That would be easy.

749

:

Everyone's in the courtroom.

750

:

You can start motion hour by saying,

is everyone ready to move forward?

751

:

Here's the protocol.

752

:

You can't do it in domestic violence here.

753

:

Wow.

754

:

To call all those people

into one courtroom.

755

:

Every

756

:

Christine: other county does it, man.

757

:

It's true.

758

:

Louisville is a fucking failure isn't.

759

:

Your courts are egregious.

760

:

You're a failure.

761

:

You are wasting 90 seconds every single

time for someone to go in and out.

762

:

People need to get in

and watch, but they don't

763

:

Hugh: have enough space to do it.

764

:

Cos are so much smaller than some of

those Taj Mahal courthouses that you go to

765

:

and they have Taj everybody well so that

766

:

Christine: they could have

people, if you're on the call in

767

:

the eight 30 docket, handle that

call in the nine 30 or print it

768

:

Hugh: out and just post it.

769

:

So people are, you know that it just

says, here's what you need to have

770

:

ready when you walk in my courtroom.

771

:

You could do that.

772

:

I mean, why

773

:

Christine: not?

774

:

Why.

775

:

If you wanna see cases

get fucking settled.

776

:

You need to let people sit and

watch Denise Brown think in real

777

:

time and you will have people

running up to their attorney saying,

778

:

I'll take whatever deal you got.

779

:

'cause there ain't no way that woman's

making a decision about my life.

780

:

Well,

781

:

Hugh: I used to, I mean, so the delays

when judges were late and in the previous

782

:

group of judges, there were ones that

were far more notoriously late, and it

783

:

was a bigger problem you learned as an

attorney to take advantage of it if you

784

:

were representing the person that was.

785

:

Didn't have the facts going against them.

786

:

The wait time, there were certain

things you could do going in and out.

787

:

Yeah.

788

:

Seeing busy like you're getting

ready and if the other side is pro

789

:

se, they get more and more nervous.

790

:

The more time you you, they're

waiting and it's wrong.

791

:

And you can go up and say.

792

:

I'm gonna offer you, , a

potential of a, of an agreement.

793

:

Yeah.

794

:

And, , you, you know, this is a

one, one time only thing, and they

795

:

would take it because they've been

sitting there waiting, just sweating

796

:

it out because the judge did that.

797

:

That's, oh, it's terrible.

798

:

Christine: No, but what I'm saying

is like, it works as an attorney.

799

:

Get your lazy asses to work.

800

:

Get your lazy asses to work.

801

:

Get to work on time.

802

:

Get to work on time.

803

:

No one I know.

804

:

No one at Ford can be an

hour and 14 minutes late.

805

:

Hugh: They need just a big

TV screen on each floor.

806

:

And we can have Christie Noam talk

about how court goes and how the

807

:

Democrats have ruined everything.

808

:

, Christine: I mean, we

could have me do that.

809

:

I'll do it for free.

810

:

I'll do it.

811

:

I will talk about it in real time.

812

:

Or we could just, we could donate.

813

:

Hugh: Well, I'll donate the TVs.

814

:

We just need to brand, brand

them with judgy on them.

815

:

Yeah.

816

:

Like, have your shit ready when

you walk inside this courtroom.

817

:

Christine: Please have your shit ready.

818

:

Get to work on time.

819

:

You lazy?

820

:

I'm sick.

821

:

Well, I mean, yeah, I'm

sick to death of it.

822

:

Your, well, I'm,

823

:

Hugh: I'm talking about the litigants too.

824

:

Because,

825

:

Christine: well, if they don't

get to court on time, they

826

:

can get , a pickup order.

827

:

I mean, they could get a bench

warrant in certain cases.

828

:

They could lose fundamental rights.

829

:

Get your lazy asses to that

courthouse by nine o'clock.

830

:

I used to say, okay, whatever, nine

30 to four 30, I don't know, come

831

:

hell or high water, I'm gonna figure

out how to subpoena and figure out.

832

:

Who's in that?

833

:

We are paying them $160,000.

834

:

Get your lazy ass into court.

835

:

Get your lazy, oh my.

836

:

I guess.

837

:

Get your la You know, if you wanna be

incompetent, you were duly elected,

838

:

but get your ass to work on time.

839

:

We are paying your salary.

840

:

Get your ass to work on time.

841

:

Think

842

:

Hugh: about the people that are truly

domestic violence victims, having

843

:

to sit in that waiting area with

the person that has systematically

844

:

abused them because you just.

845

:

Felt like doing something

else in the morning.

846

:

That's, I mean, and that's.

847

:

That sounds absurd, but that's, that's

what we're dealing with every damn week.

848

:

Christine: Yep.

849

:

Yep.

850

:

Hugh: And

851

:

Christine: so, and it was 1.2

852

:

billable hours before she even got there.

853

:

So if you're billing 300,

that's 360 to your lawyer,

854

:

Hugh: and this is by no

means limited division seven.

855

:

This is just, you observed

division seven, this has happened.

856

:

Not in every division.

857

:

Some people show up on time, but , in

a lot more than just one division.

858

:

Christine: Yes, that's true.

859

:

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

860

:

And I don't care.

861

:

I'll go to all their courts now.

862

:

She's the only one that's ever

denied me access to Zoom court.

863

:

There,

864

:

Hugh: there are certain people that

are on time every damn time too.

865

:

Mm-hmm.

866

:

So I don't want to ignore that.

867

:

There are people that, you know, you

better show up 'cause you're getting,

868

:

your case is getting called right

away and you don't, you wanna miss it.

869

:

And, the judge doesn't matter

if there's a traffic jam or

870

:

whatever, they're starting on time

871

:

Christine: or just this radical notion.

872

:

This is a telefono Hi.

873

:

Sorry, Teleo.

874

:

I hit traffic.

875

:

I will be there at eight forty seven.

876

:

So our first call case

will be nine o'clock.

877

:

Please make sure to let

all the attorneys know.

878

:

Yeah, and step outside

and tell everybody, yeah.

879

:

Hey, the judge hit some traffic.

880

:

You know, I don't want everyone to

stress, and then everyone's, oh, okay.

881

:

I've gotten

882

:

Hugh: those calls before.

883

:

That's how human news.

884

:

I've gotten the calls from

staff that this is happening.

885

:

I know you have a case on, it's

hard to call everybody, but man,

886

:

when I've gotten that courtesy.

887

:

It saved my client a lot of money

and I've really appreciated it.

888

:

You can't do it.

889

:

Every time shit

890

:

Christine: happens, it shit happens.

891

:

Shit happens.

892

:

It,

893

:

Hugh: it ain't, it isn't like you didn't

know what time you were getting there

894

:

and what time you're gonna start court.

895

:

I'm sorry.

896

:

Christine: Oh, so then it's like the

panic, oh god, Christine Miller's here.

897

:

Christine Miller's here, and

then that's when it's like no one

898

:

knows what to do, and then they're

locking me in court three times.

899

:

I mean, her staff going in and

out, dead bolting the door.

900

:

Then we get to this case,

and I'll go briefly.

901

:

I know we're trying to make

these episodes shorter.

902

:

So then it was cross complaints.

903

:

Well, it was like.

904

:

, A cross complaint.

905

:

EPO had been filed last week.

906

:

There had been a, the other side, and

the judge had passed it six months

907

:

for review, hadn't heard anything,

and the attorney's just explaining,

908

:

your Honor, we were here last week.

909

:

This is a cross complaint.

910

:

The judge is like, oh, so we

had a full hearing and the

911

:

attorney's like, no, judge.

912

:

You didn't have a hearing on it, judge.

913

:

No clue.

914

:

None whatsoever.

915

:

What's happening?

916

:

Zero idea.

917

:

Hugh: Well, and if you haven't had

your hearing, you have a limited

918

:

amount of time under the statute to

have it, or it doesn't exist anymore.

919

:

It doesn't just continue in perpetuity

if you don't have your hearing.

920

:

Yes, there could be some real

protection issues for people.

921

:

Christine: So this, that's,

they're doing this a lot.

922

:

I didn't mean to just

point at you like that.

923

:

This is a really good point.

924

:

If the parties both agree,

I think you can pass.

925

:

It's for six months.

926

:

Hugh: If you allow it to be, you have to

specifically allow it to remain in effect

927

:

outside of that, and it has to be in order

928

:

Christine: outside the 14 days.

929

:

Hugh: Yeah.

930

:

It can't just be, yeah, we're making

an appearance, saying it going on.

931

:

No order gets entered.

932

:

Christine: Gina Calvert was notorious

for forcing, in my opinion, sort of

933

:

forcing attorneys to agree to it.

934

:

'cause you knew what she was

gonna do if she had to hear it.

935

:

, Well,

936

:

Hugh: yeah.

937

:

Judges do that, but it, if it's

not in an order, it doesn't

938

:

go out there to be enforced.

939

:

The police don't have any record.

940

:

Yeah.

941

:

That this is still, I mean, it's,

but so it screws things up so

942

:

badly when it's just like, yeah,

we'll just agree to do this.

943

:

Yeah.

944

:

, Sheriff, can you just call the case

and tell, tell them that we're gonna

945

:

roll this , and stuff like that When

you're dealing with domestic violence or

946

:

stuff that has real protections mm-hmm.

947

:

It has to go into a computer

system a certain way.

948

:

If you just don't, if

you don't do it right.

949

:

It could really end up

getting somebody killed.

950

:

Christine: Seriously.

951

:

, And so then she thought she didn't

know the parties because clearly

952

:

she's not prepared for court.

953

:

You know what I'm saying?

954

:

So then she said, oh, we, so we

already had a hearing on this, and the

955

:

attorney's just like, no, your Honor.

956

:

We passed it for a review

date in six months.

957

:

Which should anyone with a

legal brain in Louisville.

958

:

Would know what that meant.

959

:

, So then they have the hearing

and it's just a shit show.

960

:

And then there's a pro se one

that's a shit, another shit show and

961

:

she lets 'em go on and on and on.

962

:

And I don't know if she was letting 'em

go on and on 'cause she, , I was there.

963

:

, And of course she does her ma'am,

ma'am, ma'am, ma'am, sir, sir, sir.

964

:

You know how she does?

965

:

Hugh: Yeah.

966

:

Well, I mean, yeah,

967

:

Christine: it's performative

968

:

Hugh: with, with pro se stuff, I,

that would be the hardest thing

969

:

for me if I were to judge how to.

970

:

At what point can you just

curtail it without, because

971

:

you're not getting testimony.

972

:

If someone was testifying and

their attorney was questioning,

973

:

you couldn't just say,

974

:

Christine: oh,

975

:

Hugh: I mean, it's harder just

to say, okay, we're we're done.

976

:

I'm gonna rule at this point.

977

:

You haven't finished your question.

978

:

So how you treat.

979

:

Again, pro se is, it's not rocket.

980

:

Christine: Hi, my name is Judge Show.

981

:

And so today we're here for

a domestic violence hearing.

982

:

I'm going to give you, , this amount

of time, 15 minutes, minutes to present

983

:

yours, 15 minutes to present yours.

984

:

But what I forgot to tell you, that

985

:

Hugh: works so well too.

986

:

Yeah.

987

:

Christine: Dumb ass.

988

:

Just do it.

989

:

Sorry.

990

:

I'm in a moot.

991

:

I am in a, , but one of

992

:

Hugh: the most impactful moments of my

career ever was when a judge said, Mr.

993

:

Barry, your time is up.

994

:

You get one more question

for this entire trial.

995

:

Think for a few moments,

make it a good one.

996

:

Yep.

997

:

And I got, I just had to be quiet

for the entire rest of the trial

998

:

because I'd used up the time

that I was told at the beginning.

999

:

I had this much time and I kept

track of every second from that

:

00:34:49,422 --> 00:34:50,833

point on for the rest of my career.

:

00:34:50,953 --> 00:34:51,223

Christine: Yep.

:

00:34:51,223 --> 00:34:53,473

Because, and that's how

courtroom management should work.

:

00:34:53,473 --> 00:34:53,563

Yeah.

:

00:34:53,563 --> 00:34:56,172

You just can't let, 'cause people will

talk forever and over and over and over.

:

00:34:56,483 --> 00:34:59,963

, But so during the cross

examination in the first hearing.

:

00:35:00,533 --> 00:35:04,493

Denise just started interjecting her own

questions in the middle of cross, like

:

00:35:04,493 --> 00:35:07,493

every random, like it would be like,

, can you state your name for the record?

:

00:35:07,523 --> 00:35:08,923

You'd be like, Hugh Barrow.

:

00:35:08,993 --> 00:35:11,493

And then it would be like, , sir,

what color is your shirt?

:

00:35:11,493 --> 00:35:12,813

Like, she just started asking questions.

:

00:35:12,813 --> 00:35:15,903

Denise, in the middle

of the attorney's cross?

:

00:35:16,053 --> 00:35:16,353

Hugh: Yeah.

:

00:35:16,353 --> 00:35:18,303

I mean, what, what's the why?

:

00:35:18,543 --> 00:35:21,363

Christine: Because she wants to be a

lawyer or she wants to assert her power.

:

00:35:21,693 --> 00:35:25,593

Hugh: I mean, I don't, there are

times where I think it's appropriate.

:

00:35:26,163 --> 00:35:26,433

No.

:

00:35:26,523 --> 00:35:27,513

, If an attorney.

:

00:35:28,173 --> 00:35:33,393

You've seen the attorneys that just

beat around the bush and never ask the

:

00:35:33,393 --> 00:35:37,743

question, and you're wasting the docket

time like on, , when you have all the nine

:

00:35:37,743 --> 00:35:41,193

thirty's waiting because the attorney's

just asking irrelevant questions.

:

00:35:41,193 --> 00:35:43,563

Sometimes the judges say, move on, ma'am.

:

00:35:43,563 --> 00:35:47,043

I think what he's trying to ask is

this, and then ask the right question

:

00:35:47,043 --> 00:35:48,543

to move the testimony forward.

:

00:35:48,543 --> 00:35:49,263

I don't have any.

:

00:35:49,638 --> 00:35:50,868

No, she was just an issue with that.

:

00:35:50,928 --> 00:35:51,078

No.

:

00:35:51,078 --> 00:35:53,088

'cause I've had people do

it with me when I'm young.

:

00:35:53,118 --> 00:35:56,298

When I was younger and I was having

trouble getting the answer Ira, out

:

00:35:56,298 --> 00:36:00,198

of my client, I see a judge's like,

ma'am, can you just answer his question?

:

00:36:00,258 --> 00:36:02,478

And I think the question is,

and they will restate it.

:

00:36:02,508 --> 00:36:02,538

Okay.

:

00:36:02,543 --> 00:36:02,583

So

:

00:36:02,588 --> 00:36:03,858

Christine: no, that's not what happened.

:

00:36:03,858 --> 00:36:06,318

And I wanna be clear on this

because like I understand, and

:

00:36:06,318 --> 00:36:07,578

we do the devil's advocate thing.

:

00:36:07,758 --> 00:36:11,598

What happened was the attorney

was in cross-examination mode

:

00:36:11,598 --> 00:36:13,428

asking really great questions.

:

00:36:13,488 --> 00:36:13,518

Okay.

:

00:36:13,518 --> 00:36:16,128

Setting stuff up like very on point.

:

00:36:16,128 --> 00:36:18,183

And the judge just had

a thought and was like.

:

00:36:19,158 --> 00:36:21,498

Ma'am, what did you say?

:

00:36:21,498 --> 00:36:22,668

You fell in the toilet

:

00:36:22,728 --> 00:36:24,018

Hugh: and it wasn't related at all.

:

00:36:24,078 --> 00:36:26,868

Christine: It was like to the question

that was, it was like eight questions ago.

:

00:36:28,138 --> 00:36:28,763

I'd have had a stroke.

:

00:36:28,923 --> 00:36:29,073

I had a stroke.

:

00:36:29,073 --> 00:36:29,848

There's always

:

00:36:29,848 --> 00:36:30,838

Hugh: a chance to do that.

:

00:36:30,838 --> 00:36:33,478

A judge can ask questions, but

just at the end, just wait.

:

00:36:33,478 --> 00:36:37,228

I mean, it's like what if there

was a GAL and they get a chance

:

00:36:37,228 --> 00:36:39,928

to cross, cross-examine too,

and they were just interjecting.

:

00:36:39,928 --> 00:36:40,768

It's just.

:

00:36:41,323 --> 00:36:42,733

You're just gonna, yeah, whatever.

:

00:36:42,733 --> 00:36:43,153

, I don't know.

:

00:36:43,213 --> 00:36:45,283

The judge gets to control of

the courtroom if that's how a

:

00:36:45,283 --> 00:36:46,813

judge wants to conduct testimony.

:

00:36:46,813 --> 00:36:48,463

I don't think there's any violation of it.

:

00:36:48,463 --> 00:36:52,783

It just, it makes things, it,

it just, it throws things off.

:

00:36:52,783 --> 00:36:54,043

It's gonna make things slower.

:

00:36:54,043 --> 00:36:55,243

It's gonna make things take longer.

:

00:36:55,243 --> 00:36:56,623

It's gonna get you further behind.

:

00:36:56,623 --> 00:36:58,933

And you started way late to begin with.

:

00:36:59,163 --> 00:37:01,353

, Christine: Well, like, let's think about,

you know, we're in a real courtroom,

:

00:37:01,353 --> 00:37:03,373

allegedly according to, , people.

:

00:37:03,673 --> 00:37:07,333

If you did that during a jury trial, I

think it could possibly be sanctionable.

:

00:37:07,903 --> 00:37:07,963

I

:

00:37:08,443 --> 00:37:09,523

Hugh: dunno if it'd be Sanctionable.

:

00:37:09,523 --> 00:37:12,403

It could be, you could throw the whole

thing out and have to do it again if

:

00:37:12,403 --> 00:37:14,593

you have inter, I don't, I don't know.

:

00:37:15,103 --> 00:37:16,183

Christine: It's just inappropriate.

:

00:37:16,183 --> 00:37:18,763

It's, and this is like, what

I'm trying to say is like basic.

:

00:37:18,763 --> 00:37:22,123

I talked to an attorney last night and

it was just like, and this person's

:

00:37:22,213 --> 00:37:25,603

does a lot of criminal work and I

talked to one of my buddies from law

:

00:37:25,603 --> 00:37:29,173

school the other day, and it's just like

family law attorney, family law judges.

:

00:37:30,163 --> 00:37:30,613

Have some.

:

00:37:30,793 --> 00:37:32,683

And I don't care if the

attorney's asking bad questions.

:

00:37:32,683 --> 00:37:33,673

That's your fucking job.

:

00:37:33,673 --> 00:37:35,833

And dealing with pro se people,

that's your fucking job.

:

00:37:36,013 --> 00:37:36,253

You know?

:

00:37:36,253 --> 00:37:39,703

I didn't have to take pro bono cases

because I worked for Christine Miller.

:

00:37:40,633 --> 00:37:42,043

You work for the Commonwealth of Kentucky.

:

00:37:42,043 --> 00:37:45,553

Get your lazy ass to work on time,

show people some respect, and that

:

00:37:45,553 --> 00:37:48,313

attorney that you tried to have

power trip over makes three times as

:

00:37:48,313 --> 00:37:49,913

much money as you do well, you know?

:

00:37:49,918 --> 00:37:52,333

So think about that while

you're buying Maybelline makeup,

:

00:37:52,508 --> 00:37:56,233

Hugh: oftentimes, oftentimes

I've been, I've thought about,

:

00:37:56,283 --> 00:37:59,313

. I've thought about like if there were

prerequisites or something, you have to

:

00:37:59,313 --> 00:38:02,793

have tried this many cases or it would

be good if they had tried some criminal

:

00:38:02,793 --> 00:38:07,773

cases where the procedure is paramount and

you can see how, how things are just very

:

00:38:07,773 --> 00:38:09,063

strict in the procedure and all of that.

:

00:38:09,063 --> 00:38:12,663

But then I think, oh, some of the

worst ones were prosecutors and watched

:

00:38:12,783 --> 00:38:17,433

hundreds of things and were involved , in

tons of hearings in criminal courts.

:

00:38:17,433 --> 00:38:21,093

And so clearly that's,

that's not the answer.

:

00:38:21,213 --> 00:38:21,693

Christine: Yeah.

:

00:38:21,693 --> 00:38:22,773

Well, when we have to too.

:

00:38:22,838 --> 00:38:23,158

I mean, so.

:

00:38:23,928 --> 00:38:27,138

In Kentucky, and I hope this is still

the law, if I'm wrong, I know somebody

:

00:38:27,138 --> 00:38:30,978

will tell me, but the, there's actually

much more procedural rules in civil.

:

00:38:30,978 --> 00:38:33,768

And so we have a rule in Kentucky

that if there's not a criminal rule

:

00:38:33,768 --> 00:38:36,618

on point, you use the civil rule,

you can defer to the civil rule.

:

00:38:36,618 --> 00:38:36,628

Mm-hmm.

:

00:38:36,628 --> 00:38:38,468

Make the civil rule argument,

, which I don't think is the.

:

00:38:39,073 --> 00:38:39,763

Case in all states.

:

00:38:39,763 --> 00:38:43,213

Again, I could be wrong on this

because there's almost always a civil

:

00:38:43,213 --> 00:38:46,183

rule on point for procedure where

sometimes there isn't a criminal,

:

00:38:46,183 --> 00:38:47,563

and that's kind of the point of it.

:

00:38:47,803 --> 00:38:52,153

But yet people have so much more sanctity

and respect for criminal court, yet you're

:

00:38:52,153 --> 00:38:54,028

talking about domestic violence children.

:

00:38:55,113 --> 00:38:55,653

, I don't know.

:

00:38:55,683 --> 00:38:56,793

Just get to work on time.

:

00:38:57,753 --> 00:38:59,463

Get, get your ass to work on time.

:

00:38:59,823 --> 00:38:59,973

Yeah.

:

00:39:00,003 --> 00:39:01,263

Play a drinking game every time.

:

00:39:01,263 --> 00:39:03,063

I say, get your lazy ass to work on time.

:

00:39:03,363 --> 00:39:05,373

Have a plethora light beer.

:

00:39:05,373 --> 00:39:06,183

No, a plethora.

:

00:39:06,183 --> 00:39:07,863

You could have a shot because

I think I only said that once.

:

00:39:07,863 --> 00:39:08,323

This time I.

:

00:39:08,833 --> 00:39:09,343

Hugh: That's true.

:

00:39:09,553 --> 00:39:10,033

That is true.

:

00:39:10,123 --> 00:39:10,753

Christine: Big day for me.

:

00:39:10,903 --> 00:39:11,143

Hugh: Yep.

:

00:39:11,803 --> 00:39:13,873

Christine: All right, y'all judgey y.com.

:

00:39:13,873 --> 00:39:16,813

Christine has not been arrested yet,

but I have been locked in a courtroom.

:

00:39:16,843 --> 00:39:17,803

The day is young.

:

00:39:19,633 --> 00:39:20,113

Hugh: See ya.

:

00:39:21,173 --> 00:39:21,653

Next call.

:

00:39:21,653 --> 00:39:23,858

We need some justice, justice, justice.

:

00:39:24,293 --> 00:39:25,673

And I wanna ring bells in public.

:

00:39:26,033 --> 00:39:28,403

I wanna ring bes in public nor crowd.

:

00:39:28,463 --> 00:39:30,298

Yeah, but I To the fo Yeah.

:

00:39:30,498 --> 00:39:32,058

I To the fo Yeah.

:

00:39:32,138 --> 00:39:35,778

I to the fo fo teaser.

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The JudgeMental Podcast
From the Creators of Judge-y
The JudgeMental Podcast features two attorneys, Hugh and Christine, who bring over three decades of combined litigation experience to the mic. Now venturing into a bold new initiative—"Judge-y", a website and soon-to-be app—they aim to give lawyers and litigants a platform to evaluate judges and promote accountability within the judiciary.

About your host

Profile picture for Hugh Barrow

Hugh Barrow