Episode 29

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Published on:

9th Oct 2025

EP 29 Paying the Toll

Episode 29: Virtual Smackdown

In this candid and thought-provoking episode, Christine and Hugh dive deep into the realities and challenges of the family court system, sharing personal experiences and hard truths from their legal careers. They discuss the emotional toll of advocacy, the systemic issues plaguing courts across the country, and the infighting that often stalls meaningful reform.

Key topics include:

  • The struggle to make a difference in a system that often feels overwhelming and resistant to change
  • The impact of transparency (or lack thereof) in family court proceedings
  • How personal beliefs and backgrounds of GALs, FOCs, and judges can influence outcomes for families and children
  • The evolving role of attorneys as both advocates and businesspeople
  • The importance of open dialogue, even when it means disagreeing or challenging long-held assumptions
  • Stories from the trenches: memorable cases, moments of frustration, and the hope for systemic improvement

Christine and Hugh also reflect on the need for massive changes in the next few years to preserve the integrity of the legal system, and invite listeners to join the conversation—whether to challenge their views or share their own stories.

Don’t forget to subscribe to “Judge-y” on YouTube and follow Kentucky Christine on all platforms for updates and more discussions.

Join the conversation: Comment on YouTube, come on the show, and help us work toward a better, more just system for everyone.

Transcript
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You are listening to The Judgemental Podcast.

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Speaker 3: We're Hugh and Christine, the

Minds Behind Judgy, the revolutionary app

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that empowers you to judge the judges.

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Speaker 2: It's pastime for

judicial accountability and

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transparency within the courts.

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Speaker 3: Prepare for sharp

insights, candid critiques, and

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unshakable honesty from two lawyers

determined to save the system.

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Speaker 4: We need some justice.

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Justice, my fine justice.

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And I wanna ring, be in public.

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I wanna ring, be in public crowd.

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Yeah.

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Christine: Every other day.

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Sometimes I really do just wanna

throw in the towel and give up because

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I don't know that it's worth it.

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And it just seems like

everything I uncover, it just

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gets worse and worse and worse.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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To me, I'm still going through that period

of, having my expectations blown away.

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And you, you told me what I would

be getting into and, and to this

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extent, I, to a certain extent,

I still haven't seen half of it.

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'cause I'm not active on social

media the way that you are.

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But from what we get every single day,

people telling their stories, I, I

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wasn't prepared for how bad that is.

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But I I think I'm still, I still

frame that as I'm realizing

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how bad the problem is.

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Not that.

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You know, it's impossible to make

a difference, but as that problem

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gets bigger and bigger, you start

wondering, how in the hell can

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we ever chip away at this thing?

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Christine: Yeah.

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And I think just the nature of

speaking out against it and so many

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people, it's just like being involved

in politics where you have so much

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infighting within the movement.

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Oh yeah.

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And then.

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So much risk of, you know, 'cause

it's really dawned on me that

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there's no way I can go back into

practicing law in Louisville family.

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Not that I would want to, but

just the retaliation from any

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clients or anything like that.

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Like we've really put ourself out

there and seeing how big and systemic

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and systematic these problems are.

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It's just, it's hard for me to hold.

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Hugh: Yeah, , I agree.

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The problems in other places

being so different than

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they are where we practiced.

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So, you know, right before we went on,

on uh, recording, we were talking about.

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Legislative potential legislative

changes that would solve some of the

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problems that we see here locally.

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And they wouldn't be a drop in the

bucket or even start to address

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some of the issues we've heard

about in other courts, for instance.

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Yep.

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So I know that it's much easier

to talk about , the areas where we

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know and where I think the pro, the

problems are vast but still finite.

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I can define what they are.

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I still don't have my head around

what's going on in some other

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places, and that's, that's.

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One of the things that's really daunting.

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Christine: Yeah, and I think too, like

I didn't have my head around about

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how bad it was in Louisville until

I was away from it more At the same

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time, like I do think Louisville is

in a much worse situation than what.

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You may think it is.

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I mean, and I could be wrong.

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I'm open to the fact that I'm wrong,

but I just see these patterns over

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and over and over in the messages.

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But since we started recording

about what I mean, maybe an hour

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and a half ago, Ohio, Georgia,

California, please come, please come.

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United Kingdom.

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It's yeah, and it's the same thing.

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It's the lack of transparency,

the lack of efficiency, and the

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delegation to these third party people.

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Yeah.

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GALs or their equivalent

or custodial evaluators.

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And I don't know how, I don't know

how to stop it, and I don't know

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what's gonna happen to these children

that are involved in the system.

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Hugh: No, I, I agree.

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My bigger fear, my biggest fear

is that what we're doing may.

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In the short term, make

things worse if Yep.

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The reaction that we've had

here continues in the direction

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that it's going, so mm-hmm.

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We know that there's been discussions

on shutting people, the public, out of

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family court hearings, or not letting

people attend certain things, and , I

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think that will have the opposite

effect of, I mean, I, I think that's.

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There's less transparency , and

the problems that already exist

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are just going to fester and get

10 times worse without anyone being

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able to witness what's going on.

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Yeah.

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And I worry that us shining a light on

these problems instead of actually fixing

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the problems, those that are in charge are

just going to try to keep us from shining

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a light on the problems and just Yep.

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You know, that that initial knee jerk

defensiveness that we've seen out of

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the court system scares me a little bit.

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Christine: Yeah, and the fact that lawyers

are so adamantly protecting the system,

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but I think it was designed like this,

like GALs FOCs, they are protecting their

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income and then you have big firms that

are protecting the custodial evaluators

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and they get more and more and more money.

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I mean, there is a profit margin when

you're running a business, and I'm

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not saying that there shouldn't be.

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Okay.

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There absolutely should be.

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There has to be a way for

lawyers to pay their mortgage.

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They have to make money.

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But I think the system has gotten so big.

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And I do think that there's a bigger

problem in Louisville, like the,

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you know, the shooting the shit

at motion hours and the shooting

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the shit with other attorneys,

local attorneys about the problems.

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I think that's dying off.

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You have a lot of these young attorneys

that really think the system is working.

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Hugh: Yeah, I think that it takes

time for you to realize, you know,

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when it fails you, you see it going,

you've been taught, this is the system.

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I mean, imagine if you've practiced under

someone or been mentored by someone or

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taken the family law class that taught

by, you know, someone within the system

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right now, this is what you're expecting.

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So I think that the expectations

of people, younger attorneys that

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are coming into family law, it's

meeting their expectations and I

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think that it will take a case.

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Where they have a client who loses

their child or is wronged in a terrible

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way for them to think through, wait a

second, how in the world in the United

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States could that have just happened?

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I got denied a hearing and, and

she's, you know, he or she's, you

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know, having to give up their child

today without any real due process.

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I think when that happens.

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, It changes.

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I mean, it changed you.

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It changed me.

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I remember the first time that

that happened and it just exposed

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so many of the problems, and

that was years into my career.

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So.

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Christine: Yeah.

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And I think too, just the notion of

not understanding that you can buck the

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system like I do think I'm indoctrinated.

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I know I'm indoctrinated in certain

ways 'cause I still am like very

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much oh well the system will work.

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The system will work.

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Yeah.

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But I do think there's just like

a fundamental misunderstanding

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of the due process requirements.

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Like the fact that every law.

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Louisville lawyer has not been like open

up courtrooms immediately and we're not

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waiving due process rights is insane.

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To me.

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It's, it's just, it's insane to me and

I think the number of attorneys that

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are supportive of what we are doing

publicly is kind of going by the wayside.

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Hugh: Hmm.

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I, I, you know, when I speak to people,

it's always people agreeing or, or, you

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know, talking about, I'm glad you're

bringing light to this, and I'm less

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involved on social media, so I don't

see, I don't see the other side as much.

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I don't see the pushback.

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They're all

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kissing our ass.

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The

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pushback that I see, a lot of the pushback

I see comes from infighting within,

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you know, people that are interested in

judicial reform from one way or the other.

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That is.

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I think extremely counterproductive,

but also completely uninteresting to me.

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So I, try to tune it out, but I also

realize the effect that it has and

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it really keeps us from actually

getting any meaningful change done.

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Whereas those who are trying to do

things from a political point of

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view automatically have people that

are built in, in support of their

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position from their political side,

and can be very effective at moving

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things in the wrong direction.

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Christine: Yep.

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Hugh: And, and again, not that one side

is wrong or right, but that politicizing

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the judiciary is a problem regardless.

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Regardless of which way that it comes.

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And I think part of why you,

you say you're indoctrinated,

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I don't know that you're

indoctrinated, we're both attorneys.

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We trained and became attorneys

because we believe in the power of law.

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We believe in this third branch

of the government and its role.

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And you, you, you go through

a lot of cost and a lot of

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school to enter into that world.

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I, maybe it's indoctrination, but

it's also, it's sort of something

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the country is founded on.

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So, I mean, it's a belief and I

think that's what drives us being

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appalled by, you know, the way that

the system is, is being executed.

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Christine: I think the indoctrination

that I'm talking about, the notion that

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like attorneys can fix everything or

that judges are kind of on the up and

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up, or that the system is gonna survive.

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And what I mean by that, like if you

look at the most successful litigators at

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the Supreme Court, it's my understanding

that they are jailhouse lawyers, right?

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They have got a lot of published cases.

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So these are pleadings and law that's

been created through the judiciary,

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not by attorneys, but by people

that were affected by the system.

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That preserves the issues that

got it up to the higher courts.

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And I think just like we see within

the medical industry, you know, massive

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changes within the medical industry in

the last 20 to 30 years with insurance

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companies and things like that.

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Do you know what I mean?

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Just how their day-to-day

functions are done.

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And I don't see lawyers realizing

their own autonomy within the

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system and being more players in

the system, if that made sense.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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I mean, I think.

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There's something that goes on outside

of the problems that we talk about

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with judicial reform in as much as

the big change I saw over the course

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of my career is that lawyers weren't

allowed to really run a business

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like anybody else for a long time.

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Mm-hmm.

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They were overregulated,

they, you couldn't.

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You couldn't make a blog post without

getting pre-approval and paying $80 to the

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bar to give you the thumbs up to post it.

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So if you posted about something

that was actually going on, by the

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time it got approved, it would be

irrelevant anyway and it just, you

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weren't allowed to do anything but

hang your shingle with your name on it.

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No advertising, that kind of stuff.

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Attorneys are now finally being

recognized as business people and

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regulated like people that can

actually promote themselves and do

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business, and I think that that is.

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I mean, there is, there's a, that

factors into the way that attorneys

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treat the system and it could have

some unintended consequences because

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we're talking about it as a means

to an end, which it always was.

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You didn't go into the

law to not make a living.

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Mm-hmm.

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I mean, it's, you know, people don't say

they want their kids to become lawyers

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and doctors because you don't make any

money, but I mean, it has changed the

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way that people think about the system.

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Whereas before, here's the role of the

attorney, you're regulated into this role.

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You almost.

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You were told that you have to be only

in do X, Y, and Z, and now you have more

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freedom to look at the whole thing as

a system and a way to make money and

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to play your role within the system.

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And maybe you go along with all

of these things because you can

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get more appointment, you know it.

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Yeah, I mean, I think that that's

going on behind the scenes and I

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think that there may be financial

interests that aren't necessarily like.

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Consciously at odds with sort of what

we're taught our role really is as

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an attorney or what it should be.

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But , I think, you know, in the

background that stuff is, is

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changing, the practice as well.

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Christine: Yeah, I just think

that it's like big picture.

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I don't know what the answer is because

there's so much like infighting and

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then we have these like high level

conversations where it's yes, how when

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I used to practice, this is what was

happening when I used to practice.

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But I do genuinely believe if we

don't make massive, and I mean massive

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changes in the next year or two,

like the system is in real trouble.

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And I say, I've said this before,

like I have so many success stories

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from , criminal court where.

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Criminal, getting caught up in the

criminal court system helped people like

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they got clean, you know what I mean?

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Yeah.

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They got their kids back.

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I don't know any story like that

from family court and we're gonna

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see kids that had two lawyers

appointed to 'em go to high school.

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I mean, you know, I was reading something

the other day and it was like talking

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about, oh, let's talk about this.

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So like when we talked to Josh

out of Orange County, he said, my.

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Kids are not getting the same

parent that my older child got.

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'cause I'm so concerned with

what the court's gonna do.

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Sure.

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And I talked to my parents, obviously

I'm visiting family and I talked to

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them about some of the crazy funny

things that happened, you know, when

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we were kids or something like that.

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And it's if you were in family

court and you had a GAL that heard

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some of the stories that happened

in the eighties, they would've been

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like, oh, everybody in therapy.

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And yeah, it would've been

everybody abuse the kids.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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Christine: I mean, if you would've

been at, this is the other side of

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my family, but NFL Sunday, if some of

these GALs especially the GALs that

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don't have kids that are super quote

unquote, you know, progressive, not in

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a negative way, if they heard the way

that they talked during the Cols game,

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I mean, I'd have been in foster care.

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Hugh: Well, I mean, I, I think it's funny.

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Go watch 1980s, , PSAs

and you realize that.

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You know, things that were regular

part of parenting and, and growing

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up would be abuse and neglect.

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Now, like what, what is it?

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The, it's 10:00 PM Do you

know where your kids are?

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You know, that PSA, it's like

nowadays you'd never have your kids

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just out unaccounted for rooming the

neighborhood back then you could.

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I did.

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I knew what time I had to be back and

I could just go miles away to friends'

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houses to do that kind of stuff.

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And life was a little bit different.

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I find that.

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That funny to think about sometimes,

but I, you know, when I, when I was

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practicing, I told every single client

that had kids just pretend, just

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imagine there's cameras in each room.

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And I was very honest with them

and I said, I know that that sounds

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miserable and I imagine it is.

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I would hate that with every ounce

of my being, and it would change

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the way that I was with my kids

and it would ruin a lot of things.

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So.

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I know what you're going to say,

and you are absolutely right.

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It does all of those things and it's

awful, but that's the only way you're

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gonna come out of this, you know?

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With, with a result that

you want and it sucks.

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You have to just, your life changes

now and when is it gonna end?

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Is it gonna end when

your divorce is final?

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Nope.

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It's probably not gonna end until,

you know, either somebody's just too

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poor or tired to do anything else

in court, or your kids are no longer

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kids, and that's the way that it is.

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Christine: I mean, and kids

won't be able to afford schools.

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They won't be able to afford homes.

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Nope.

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And there's not gonna be any

accountability, like I'm thinking in

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particular of two or three of our GALs or

FOCs that just make these decisions based.

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They're imposing their own socioeconomic

and religious views on to children

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which is crazy that you're co-parenting

with the government and what you just

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said was so profound per usual, in the

sense if that's what family court is

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doing, like the country's in real trouble.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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I remember the first time a

judge threatened to take a

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child away from my client.

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This was, oh man, I guess it was

probably Facebook when it was blowing up.

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So, you know, 22, 3 years ago and.

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At the time I had created a Facebook

account and I had created a Facebook

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account because I had very young kids.

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And the sole purpose of that Facebook

account was because I had, like when

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my kids were born, I'd made a website

with their name and I made it to where

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the grandparents could come and we

would just post pictures and stuff,

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and it just didn't work all that well.

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But for some reason, you know, this

is probably why Facebook took off.

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Even grandparents could get online.

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And look at things in Facebook.

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They didn't have to click anything.

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It just sort of showed up.

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So I created, yeah, like a social

media profile for the sole purposes

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of posting pictures of my kids.

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So my grandparents who

were in different states.

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And we didn't get to see personally

very often at all, because the closest

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one was maybe like seven and a half

hours away, could see the kids.

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And I remember sitting in court next

to the client who had posted something

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and I, I don't really think it was

being alleged that that was wrong.

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But the judge picked up on it.

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So I think that there was maybe a

bruise that showed up on the child in

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a Facebook photo, and it was the, you

know, I, I sympathized with the client

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at the time because at a certain age

I just assumed that we were gonna be,

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you know, the kindergarten was gonna

send us to CPS because our kids were

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all so bruised because they just,

I mean, that's just what they do.

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They run into things,

they play with their kids.

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But anyway, the other side made

some allegations because the

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kid, you know, she saw on the.

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My client's Facebook account.

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This kid had this bruise and was wondering

what was going on, and the judge just,

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just focused on the fact that she put a

picture of the child up and went off and

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started talking about her own experience

and this and that, and it just, that

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was the first time it, it occurred to

me and it was like, oh, we are imposing

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our own views of parenting on kids.

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When we get that deep into these kinds

of things and threatening that if

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you post another picture, I'm taking

your kids away, no questions asked.

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, Basically if I, if I see this

again, you're, you're gonna

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lose your parenting time.

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You're not even gonna have a hearing

about it just because that the

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judge just had strong feelings.

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Now, to be fair, that was the beginning

of the social media revolution.

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A lot of people had strong feelings

about it, and I'm not saying

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that they were necessarily wrong.

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But I also remember thinking, I don't

have any personal issue with that.

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In fact, I'm doing it and probably had

done it within 24 or 48 hours of posting

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pictures of my own kids so they could,

you know, have a, you could build that

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relationship with more distant relatives.

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And it just, yeah, I,

that, that blew me away.

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It was just like, holy shit, I

hope you don't go on my account.

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I need to make that private so the

judges don't see it because, I mean,

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what is that judge gonna think of me?

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Christine: And that is a brilliant

example of the problems in family

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court when they bring their own stuff

to the table and that's what we see.

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And then you've got a GAL,

an FOCA custodial evaluator.

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Now I certainly think, you know,

I thought about this a lot.

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I listened to one of

our podcasts, actually.

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I had a friend of a friend listened

to one of the podcasts and ask

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a question about what you said.

365

:

I think sometimes I.

366

:

Add more nefarious intentions

to people than I should.

367

:

And I acknowledge that, but I do

think custodial evaluations are

368

:

more nefarious really and truly.

369

:

I, I genuinely do.

370

:

That's my personal opinion, but I think

that some of these FOCs and GALs, they

371

:

really are trying to make the kids'

lives better, but they're utilizing.

372

:

Their own traumas from childhood and

they are trying to impose that on them.

373

:

And the reality is, in this country,

you have a right to parent your

374

:

children as you see fit, which

is protected by the Constitution.

375

:

And that's where you talk so much

about the importance of law, you know?

376

:

And you are winning right now.

377

:

Ladies and gentlemen, there is

a live poll, , Hugh Barrow and

378

:

I got into a massive fight at

the last podcast we've made up,

379

:

Hugh: and I made a shameless pitch.

380

:

I made a shameless pitch.

381

:

Christine: And there is a live

poll and you are winning right now.

382

:

Of course, but of course

383

:

Hugh: voice of reason.

384

:

Christine: I, I think the road to

hell is paved with good intentions

385

:

and so I do want to take a step

back and try to give people a.

386

:

Positive intentions for what they're

doing in family court, but just open

387

:

up the dialogues to think, okay, the

fact that your mom made you recite the

388

:

rosary, maybe that didn't work out to

you, but if you're talking to a child

389

:

whose parents are religious, don't bring

your own religious trauma to this kid.

390

:

Right.

391

:

Hugh: I, you know, that it,

it's funny, you, you talk

392

:

about, you sort of infer some.

393

:

Some bad intentions.

394

:

I don't know that I would necessarily

agree the bad intentions, but I

395

:

read a lot more into those things

maybe even than you do because,

396

:

and you see it a lot with religion.

397

:

I mean, you see it, you see outright

condescension of people's faith mm-hmm.

398

:

And custodial evaluations.

399

:

But one of the other

things that you see is.

400

:

You can, especially when you work within

a system like we did that had just a few

401

:

custodial evaluators, you got to see the

same, you know, reports from the same

402

:

people and you would see trends and you

would see them start talking about, man,

403

:

there's, there's been several different

things and maybe there's political

404

:

discussions to be had about them.

405

:

So I'm not gonna get

into what they are, but.

406

:

Related to gender, related to certain

things, and you'll see people that will

407

:

read a study or attend something and

you'll hear them talking about it like

408

:

at a CLE, and then you'll start seeing it

in every single evaluation that they do.

409

:

They'll start citing something, they'll

start pushing hard on this versus that,

410

:

and it completely, again, just like

you said, if you are, you know, the.

411

:

Burden should be on the government

to show that you are doing

412

:

something that's harmful to your

kids before, before restricting

413

:

your right to parent your kids.

414

:

And this is sort of an end run away

from that for a system to impose its own

415

:

ethics and morals and, and, , it goes to.

416

:

A very, very fundamental right in

potentially in one that touches

417

:

on other fundamental rights.

418

:

I mean, we see it affecting firearms.

419

:

Firearms are a huge part of the, you

what, what you see in the court where.

420

:

, I've seen so many judges and so many

people that are either GAL, FOCs,

421

:

custodial value evaluators, make their

point of view really clear about mm-hmm.

422

:

Firearms and, and what's harmful

to the kids and, and all of this

423

:

stuff, and it affects another, right.

424

:

And, and I don't think there's any place

for that, regardless of how I feel.

425

:

And there have been times where

I've agreed, there've been plenty

426

:

of times where I've agreed, but

thought it was an overreach.

427

:

I mean, and or where it's a, , it's

benefited my client, but I know that

428

:

that's, that's a big overreach of the

system from the judge or from whoever

429

:

else is feeding information to the judge.

430

:

Christine: Absolutely.

431

:

You see a lot of people imposing their

religious beliefs, their political

432

:

beliefs, and I couldn't have said it

better, the condemnation of religion.

433

:

I mean, there was that court of

appeals opinion where there was an

434

:

emergency motion essentially filed by a.

435

:

GAL or FOC I can't recall which role that

person was in at the time, but essentially

436

:

saying during the pandemic, the kids were

writing Bible verses down and it was like,

437

:

oh my God, we need to get mom evaluated.

438

:

And it's you know, you,

it's, it's really dangerous.

439

:

And this is what I say to people that

become, and I don't even I don't like

440

:

any of the C words other than the C word

that I do love that everyone else hates,

441

:

but conspiracies corruption or collusion,

because I think you lose people when

442

:

you say these words, but I understand

how, as opposed to the other one

443

:

Hugh: that you love.

444

:

Christine: I do, yeah, I wanna

get a necklace that says it.

445

:

Oh, oh.

446

:

I got a t-shirt on The way that I'm

gonna wear on the next podcast that

447

:

you probably won't let me wear,

I'll send it to you, but I digress.

448

:

But.

449

:

There, , it's a real, real problem.

450

:

Like it really is a problem and I

understand why people involved in

451

:

the system think it is out to get

them or to judge them for their own

452

:

beliefs, because in this country

we have freedom of religion.

453

:

We have one through 10 amendments.

454

:

You know what I mean?

455

:

It, it's like you can't impose your D or

your R on these people's ability to parent

456

:

Hugh: well and, and.

457

:

Lest we, we let the audience think

that we believe it's a simple issue.

458

:

I don't, I think that's a different,

that's a different line to walk

459

:

and, and I mean, a difficult line

to walk in certain circumstances

460

:

because, and this was something that

I encountered early in law school.

461

:

It wasn't something I was not, when

I was in law school, I was not.

462

:

Interested so much in family law, but

there was an ongoing debate in the state

463

:

of Alabama, which was talked about a lot

in the law school about snake handling.

464

:

I grew up, I mean, , I, you know,

I grew up in the deep south.

465

:

I went to law school in

the deep, deep south.

466

:

Snake handling was a big thing.

467

:

Whether or not that, you know, if

people want, if adults want to do

468

:

that, that's freedom of their religion.

469

:

If, if they wanna put themselves

in a dangerous situation and people

470

:

died from it, you heard about it

every few weeks, somebody else

471

:

dying and it's snake handling.

472

:

And the big question was, if you wanna

raise your kids in a snake handling

473

:

church, you know, what is the state's

role in getting involved in something

474

:

where you have a pretty decent percent

chance that you might kill your kid?

475

:

And that is, that is not

an easy question to answer.

476

:

And I don't remember, I don't know

where the law stands on it right

477

:

now, but it was always evolving.

478

:

So there are areas where.

479

:

You're going to, you, you can't argue

that you're not talking about something

480

:

that could definitely be harm to kids, but

you're also touching on a protected right?

481

:

And so these, these things are, are

not always so black and white and so

482

:

easy, but a lot of them are, I mean, a

lot of them are just blatant personal

483

:

views being imparted on, you know, two

people who are not related to you that

484

:

you were supposed to be looking at.

485

:

A relatively finite set of factors

for best interest of child.

486

:

You know, no one ask

you if you believe that.

487

:

Well, the one that I'd like to go

back to, which I thought was the most

488

:

horrible, and then the, the, the most

recent that I encountered was the judge

489

:

weighing how substantial the gifts to one.

490

:

Of a pair of twins was versus the other.

491

:

That was actually had, it was litigated,

it's in pleadings, and it was a factor

492

:

in determining someone's parenting

time because of the perception

493

:

that he gave something worth more

money to one than, than the other.

494

:

And that just, that was one of the

most appalling, petty things that

495

:

I've ever seen in a courtroom.

496

:

Christine: Yep.

497

:

And you know that case is

one that traumatizes you.

498

:

He's got three cases that traumatize

him, and then he talks about that's

499

:

Hugh: so weird.

500

:

Things wrong with him.

501

:

Yeah,

502

:

Christine: there are so many things

wrong and there are so many things

503

:

with the government getting involved

and like withholding things from kids.

504

:

You know, if a kid misbehaves and

taking your cell phone, and I understand

505

:

that there's interesting dynamics

of your co-parenting, but it's, and

506

:

another one is corporal punishment.

507

:

I mean, we have troxel, you know,

and I don't think, obviously beating

508

:

your children is not advised.

509

:

Okay.

510

:

Duh.

511

:

But I also think there's something to

be said about you know, I'm gonna wear

512

:

your ass out if you do it one more time.

513

:

I mean, I was told to me, you know, I

don't, I don't think that's something

514

:

that the court should be getting

involved in, but I mean, yeah,

515

:

Hugh: I mean, I, I think after a

certain, there's a line where it

516

:

becomes harmful to a child and I think

that that might be evolving and which

517

:

experts get to say where that line is.

518

:

And I think that's one of the more

difficult areas for a judge to, to

519

:

look at if you're balancing, you're

balancing the best interest of the

520

:

child versus a parent's fundamental

right to parent their children.

521

:

I think that is, I mean, that's a,

that's a good, that's a good example

522

:

of something that's, that's hard.

523

:

I mean, that's, that's a hard one.

524

:

Where is, and what it, you know, if

you say, okay, it's this, it's a, it's

525

:

a small paddling, like what's, what's

the difference between this and that?

526

:

And you're, the judge is the

one that has to weigh it.

527

:

But I mean, they.

528

:

That's why we have people to make

those tough decisions, and that's

529

:

why we want the best people in there

to be able to weigh those things.

530

:

But what we want is for them to actually

weigh the legal rights and give them

531

:

the proper amount of weight when making

those decisions and not get tied up.

532

:

You know, when I talk about the weighing

of gifts between one child and the other.

533

:

That's not unheard of for

someone, a litigant to bring up.

534

:

We saw so many petty things brought up

, between the parties, so I don't mean to

535

:

say I, I still think it's horribly petty

to bring up if you're a litigant, but it

536

:

is not unheard of in a custody dispute

for people to bring things like that up.

537

:

What was awful was when it was seized

upon by the court appointed people, and

538

:

the judge just kept repeating it, and it

became a, an integral part to that case.

539

:

That just, yep.

540

:

Yeah, I mean, these things,

Aren aren't always easy.

541

:

Christine: When I think they

get, there's so much power too,

542

:

in how lawyers can write things.

543

:

Like I was talking to my parents about

just like one of the funny things that

544

:

happened when I was a kid and my mom like

flipped out and I'm just thinking about

545

:

it now oh my gosh, what I would've done.

546

:

But if you had the right GAL

and a teenage child that.

547

:

Explained this in the teenage

child's way, I can see where all

548

:

kinds of crazy motions were filed.

549

:

You know what I'm saying?

550

:

And my mother's gonna kill me when she

listens to this, but one time all of us in

551

:

a van, my girlfriend and I, we were like.

552

:

Being loud and crazy, probably

like fist, so preteens and

553

:

throwing something back and forth.

554

:

My mother was like, y'all better,

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

555

:

And she hit a mailbox in the,

subdivision, like really?

556

:

Like right by our house.

557

:

Hugh: Oh, I've driven a car full of kids.

558

:

I get it.

559

:

Christine: Yeah,

560

:

Hugh: I get it.

561

:

Christine: Oh, I mean, she was just, if

she could have spit nails, she would've,

562

:

and she just, my girlfriend was at

the time she was like, so, oh my gosh.

563

:

You know, when there, there was

like five kids in the car, but I can

564

:

see where you would go and be like,

tell the GAL, you know, mother acted

565

:

erratically yelling at children.

566

:

Ran into, oh, I could see

someone, someone losing,

567

:

Hugh: uh, unsupervised parenting

time for years based on that.

568

:

Christine: Yeah.

569

:

Hugh: Years.

570

:

Yes.

571

:

Christine: And, and it's and I was

explaining that to my mom, which like,

572

:

obviously we needed to be yelled at.

573

:

We were like horseplaying in the car

throwing something, you know what I mean?

574

:

And it's but you could see, I

could see GALs, like you said,

575

:

supervised parenting time.

576

:

Psychological evaluation for

mom is erratic, you know?

577

:

And it was just basically we were

misbehaving, acting like morons.

578

:

And my mother said, shut your mouths in,

, the Catholic version of Shut your Mouths.

579

:

Hugh: That's the Catholic version.

580

:

Well, I mean, you, you often talk about

why people, you know, attorneys that

581

:

are having these third party quote

unquote experts appointed on cases.

582

:

And what you just said was one of the

few reasons that I would get someone

583

:

involved because I've had people involved

in, something happens the other side

584

:

is trying to make something out of it.

585

:

But you always, it.

586

:

As an attorney when you're talking to your

client and you know what really actually

587

:

happened, and you know the child will

report correctly, but you cannot have

588

:

your client talk to the kid about it in

those terms or say what to say because

589

:

that will come out and it doesn't matter

what happened to that point because

590

:

your client's doing something wrong.

591

:

Sometimes they need to go talk to someone.

592

:

Now if they have a therapist or a

school counselor or someone they can

593

:

speak with, the youth can then, you

know, have as a witness and not have

594

:

to get a third party long-term involved

in the case, that would be ideal.

595

:

But there were times where I would have

a client who, examples, sort of like

596

:

you were saying, something happened

when they were driving or something was

597

:

said that was taken completely outta

context and for a temporary period

598

:

of time, which temporary can last.

599

:

You know, you see temporary, sometimes

intended to last a few weeks, but last

600

:

years because things just keep getting

continued and hearings can't be had.

601

:

And, that happened and I had to get

the child to talk to someone else

602

:

for the real story to come out and

for it to actually be cleared up.

603

:

And, and that part of the

system actually worked.

604

:

But that was, you know, just some,

sometimes you get into that, that,

605

:

, because people will, people will

try to make mountains outta molehill

606

:

or, or misconstrued something that

happened, , you know, to their advantage.

607

:

Christine: I completely agree,

and I just think we're getting rid

608

:

of those good people that do it.

609

:

And I'm gonna say something controversial.

610

:

Yeah.

611

:

I get hate about this online.

612

:

I do not have children, and I do not think

that we should have regularly appointed

613

:

GS or FOCs that do not have kids.

614

:

Hmm.

615

:

I and I.

616

:

I get hate about it.

617

:

But I just don't think that there's

the understanding, especially

618

:

you're talking about people, some of

them that are regularly appointed.

619

:

Yeah.

620

:

Started when they were in their

twenties and early thirties.

621

:

You have no fucking

clue what life is about.

622

:

Hugh: I can absolutely make a strong

argument for and against that.

623

:

I think I've seen cases where.

624

:

You have GALs that will see pictures

of something that is clearly to a

625

:

parent, a diaper rash type situation,

that there is nothing in the world

626

:

you could have done anything about

has happened to every single parent.

627

:

They understand what that is and you

have someone get hyperbolic about

628

:

it and turn it into something else.

629

:

There are so many bruises on kids.

630

:

They become something more,

and I'm just thinking.

631

:

If that kid came to my house from your

house at that age and didn't have bruises,

632

:

I would think, what are you doing?

633

:

Just sit 'em in front of the TV all day.

634

:

Yeah.

635

:

Christine: Yeah.

636

:

Hugh: It's just that understanding.

637

:

At the same time, who is more likely to

impose their own parenting style on kids?

638

:

, That, that you know, someone else's

kids than someone who is parented and

639

:

develop their own parenting style.

640

:

, Christine: Brilliant argument.

641

:

Let me, let me caveat.

642

:

I don't have a problem with them being

appointed on the dependency, neglect

643

:

and abuse dockets as guardian ad

litems as those kind of things, but

644

:

I'm talking about in circuit court.

645

:

Cases dealing with a

divorce or a custody action.

646

:

I do think those are nuanced in a weird

way that there is a family dynamic.

647

:

You know, I'm not trying to say, and

obviously if you wanna cut this out, but

648

:

I can't imagine that you haven't used

a curse word in front of your children.

649

:

Maybe you haven't, I

don't know, but my kids,

650

:

Hugh: oh, I probably shouldn't say.

651

:

I'd hear the kind of things that

they come out of their mouths.

652

:

We gave up on that a long time ago.

653

:

Yeah,

654

:

Christine: but so like my point is

like in these custody actions in

655

:

particular, I don't, I think it's

fine on the dependency, neglect

656

:

and abuse s docket, but there's not

nearly as much money to be made.

657

:

But I can think of three right now, three

attorneys that regularly get appointed.

658

:

I'll text you the names.

659

:

I'm not mentioning 'em on this podcast.

660

:

I don't care how much y'all Venmo me.

661

:

But they don't have any business.

662

:

They just don't have any business in

addressing complex family dynamics

663

:

that don't involve abuse allegations.

664

:

You know what I mean?

665

:

They make a mountain into a molehill

like I'm seeing now, GALs FOCs ramping

666

:

stuff up as opposed to deescalating.

667

:

Oh, no, a brilliant point.

668

:

Hugh: Yeah, absolutely.

669

:

But , I will also say from a practical

point of view, if you want to be

670

:

able to, I mean, FOCs and GALs.

671

:

When they are actually responsive and

when they're speaking to the parties

672

:

in the case, to the extent that they're

allowed by the party's attorneys, when

673

:

they're having those communications,

when they're transparent, when they

674

:

talk about why they feel this way and

all of that, the more you can actually

675

:

relate and explain why you are feeling a

certain way, the more likely it is that

676

:

people are going to comply or they're

gonna work within that process and.

677

:

I know from my clients that when they

have someone that's telling them things

678

:

about their kids and they don't have

children, that is the first things my

679

:

clients come in and say, you know what?

680

:

This person said blah, blah,

blah, and you know what?

681

:

They don't have any kids, so how

the hell would they know that?

682

:

So from a practical point of view, I, I

think that is a barrier to having people

683

:

be more cooperative within that process.

684

:

When you have people that, that

don't have children telling

685

:

people what to do with their kids.

686

:

Christine: So, all right.

687

:

Well, I just texted you three names.

688

:

Look at it.

689

:

I'm right, right.

690

:

I mean, I wouldn't let those people

make a decision about whether

691

:

or not I take my dog to the vet.

692

:

Hugh: No.

693

:

Christine: Am I wrong?

694

:

I

695

:

Hugh: brought it up right now.

696

:

Christine: Also, can I wear

that t-shirt on the podcast?

697

:

Hugh: That is hilarious.

698

:

Oh no.

699

:

You should wear that.

700

:

Absolutely.

701

:

Oh, that's,

702

:

Christine: oh, I'm excited.

703

:

I love

704

:

Hugh: it.

705

:

No, no, no, no, no.

706

:

But you don't, that is gonna

cost you a veto of something I

707

:

might wear, so just, just know.

708

:

But I do love this Tshirt

709

:

Christine: That's fair enough.

710

:

Hugh: Yeah.

711

:

We're gonna

712

:

Christine: start getting a little bit

more political and disagreeing, and just

713

:

because we disagree adamantly on things.

714

:

You know, that's the point.

715

:

Yes.

716

:

Like literally, that's the point,

is having these conversations,

717

:

everybody, no one actually gets mad.

718

:

I think in this country, we're so

afraid that if we're not carbon

719

:

copies of one another Oh yeah.

720

:

And we don't live in an echo chamber,

then we're doing something wrong.

721

:

So, that's, that's a great point.

722

:

Hugh: Yeah.

723

:

Christine: What?

724

:

Hugh: That's a great point.

725

:

Yes, great point.

726

:

Christine: And we can't get resolutions

like exactly what Hugh just said

727

:

about the fact who's more likely

to impose their parenting style.

728

:

That's a really great point

that I never thought about.

729

:

And I know I've said things about we

need to be able to get full copies

730

:

of motion hour so our minds can be

changed, like about all kinds of things.

731

:

And we want you guys to get more up in the

comments on YouTube and come on the show.

732

:

Go on our YouTube,

733

:

Hugh: come on the show.

734

:

Change our minds.

735

:

I mean.

736

:

God knows we don't have the

solutions to everything.

737

:

We just want to, we, we want to,

we wanna make the process better

738

:

by talking through the problems.

739

:

Christine: Yes, and I wanna be wrong.

740

:

I want to believe the system

is still saveable, you know?

741

:

And that's how we started this

podcast, the fear of how we keep going.

742

:

Again, we will have an update

pretty soon on judgy the app,

743

:

how this whole thing got started.

744

:

Also judging the judges judgy on YouTube.

745

:

If you love us, go

subscribe to our YouTube.

746

:

For some reason, y'all love

Apple podcast and we do too.

747

:

But YouTube.

748

:

YouTube.

749

:

YouTube.

750

:

Also Kentucky, Christine on all platforms.

751

:

Hugh, you got any prolific,

profound things to say?

752

:

Hugh: Nope,, I've left

it all on the table.

753

:

What can I say?

754

:

Bye guys.

755

:

Peace.

756

:

Speaker: Yeah.

757

:

Yeah.

758

:

We need some.

759

:

Justice.

760

:

Justin found justice.

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About the Podcast

The JudgeMental Podcast
From the Creators of Judge-y
The JudgeMental Podcast features two attorneys, Hugh and Christine, who bring over three decades of combined litigation experience to the mic. Now venturing into a bold new initiative—"Judge-y", a website and soon-to-be app—they aim to give lawyers and litigants a platform to evaluate judges and promote accountability within the judiciary.

About your host

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Hugh Barrow