Episode 14

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Published on:

26th Aug 2025

EP 14 Change in the Air?

The Judgmental Podcast – Episode 14: Change in the Air?

In this episode, Hugh and Christine dive into a viral courtroom clip that’s making waves, dissecting the legal and ethical implications of a judge’s actions and the broader issues of judicial accountability. The hosts then take listeners inside Louisville, Kentucky’s family court motion hour, offering a candid, behind-the-scenes look at five different court divisions.

Key Topics:

  • Viral video breakdown: A judge’s controversial handling of courtroom conduct, search and seizure, and performative justice.
  • The role of social media in the courtroom and judicial transparency.
  • In-depth analysis of Louisville’s family court divisions, with firsthand observations on docket management, courtroom demeanor, and the challenges facing both attorneys and pro se litigants.
  • The Emberton ruling and its impact on friend of the court (FOC) testimony and parental rights.
  • Notable cases involving domestic violence, parental alienation, and forensic interviews.
  • Reflections on the evolving roles and pressures faced by judges, including personal anecdotes about courtroom culture and management.

Highlights:

  • Open invitation to McKay Chauvin to join the podcast and discuss court recording policies.
  • Praise for Judges Angela Johnson and Shelly Santry’s courtroom management and empathy.
  • Concerns about divisions with less effective docket control and the potential consequences for families.
  • The importance of transparency, decisiveness, and respect in the judicial process.

Takeaways:

  • The need for clear courtroom procedures and timely rulings to prevent families from falling through the cracks.
  • The value of judicial accountability and the role of legal professionals in advocating for systemic change.

Connect with Us:

  • Submit your stories at judge-y.com
  • Follow on Instagram: @judgingthejudges
  • Watch on YouTube: Judge-y
  • Find us on TikTok

Tune in for sharp insights, candid critiques, and unfiltered honesty from two lawyers determined to save the system.

Transcript
Speaker:

You are listening to

The Judgemental Podcast.

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We're Hugh and Christine, the Minds

Behind Judgy, the revolutionary app

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that empowers you to judge the judges.

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It's pastime for judicial accountability

and transparency within the courts.

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Prepare for sharp insights, candid

critiques, and unshakable honesty from

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two lawyers determined to save the system.

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We need some justice.

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Justice, my fine justice.

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And I wanna ring, be in public.

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I wanna ring, be in public crowd.

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Yeah.

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Christine: All right.

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Welcome to the Judgmental podcast.

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Today we are gonna do the viral

clip, and then we are also going

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to break down us going to motion

hour in Louisville, Kentucky.

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Yesterday, August 18th, we watched

five divisions really started off

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well and then quickly went downhill.

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But we will get into that.

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Let's jump right into the viral clip.

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Alright.

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Hugh: Think you come forward,

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Christine: who cares?

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Wow.

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Christine: Oh my.

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Wow.

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Hugh: Whoa.

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Christine: Yeah, that's the second

time that we have watched this judge.

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And last time we talked about how

performative, but way outta line.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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What I mean, so it, it appears that

someone the mother of a defendant was it?

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Yeah.

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Someone who was in custody that

was in the courtroom and apparently

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took a picture of her son.

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In the court and was arrested for it,

and the deputy was ordered to or told

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by the, asked by the judge to take

her phone and delete the picture.

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Christine: well, first off too, and like,

that's a search and seizure, no doubt.

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I mean, absolutely.

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Took her phone and then said,

delete something, keep it open.

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Which all, we all know that there's

case law, that if your phone is locked,

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they need a warrant to get into it.

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Right.

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I can't think of the case on

that, but also just what she was

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wearing, she looked completely fine.

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Hugh: Well, yeah.

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I mean, you don't arrest someone for that,

so I don't think that was, you know, she

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made a comment about her being in shorts.

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I've kind of mixed feelings about that.

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I think sometimes it gets a

little bit too casual in court.

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But that woman didn't look like

she was disrespectful whatsoever.

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And what she was wearing, wearing, and

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Christine: they weren't booty shorts.

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I mean, and, and also that's

in Texas, but there's something

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wrong with that judge in Texas.

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I mean, she's just doing it for the gram.

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Yeah.

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I mean, I just did not think

that was in Texas by any means.

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I didn't think that was inappropriate.

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Hugh: No, and I mean, I think a lot

would depend on how they have it

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posted when you enter the courtroom

or whether there's a sign posted

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inside that you can't take pictures.

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I don't think that that is obvious

to people unless it's posted

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conspicuously and they've seen it.

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Someone picking their phone

up and taking pictures is.

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It's so common.

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People snap pictures of things

all the time, God knows.

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I mean, people photograph

every meal that they take.

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So yeah, I think there's nothing

out of the ordinary about that.

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I mean, if it was clearly marked or

the court was opened, you know, with

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a admonishment that you do not take

pictures, you don't take any recordings.

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I think I feel a little bit

different about it, but hard to tell.

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Christine: Yeah.

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I mean, the irony though of the fact

that the judge is literally in real time

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recording and being like, no, little girl,

don't you dare take a picture of your son.

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I mean, it's not, I'm not saying it's

appropriate, but the search seizure,

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destruction of a photo and then

subsequent arrest is just beyond.

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Hugh: No, I agree.

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And when she called her up there and

asked her a question that it wasn't.

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, It seemed like it

escalated really quickly.

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Yeah.

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With for no reason.

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Yep.

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I mean, you can see someone being

belligerent to the court and then

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them having to hold the person

in contempt and lock 'em up.

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Right.

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That didn't happen there.

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Christine: She was very apologetic.

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I'm sorry, your Honor.

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I'm sorry, your Honor.

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Yeah.

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Hugh: I mean, she said I'm

sorry, and then she gets.

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Locked up.

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It was like, yeah, it was performative.

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Christine: I really wanna talk to an

attorney out that practices in front

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of her, because this judge is clearly,

like I said, doing it for the gram.

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I wanna know how their

dockets are handled.

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Can you imagine sitting there and

just knowing that your client that's

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paying you could be subject to

her just like social media fodder?

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Is that the right word?

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Hugh: Yeah.

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Well, I mean that's, that's what we have.

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Yeah, , that's the standard that our court

administrator has set in Jefferson County.

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So.

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That is what we do.

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It is perfectly fine according to our

court administrator for someone to be

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selectively streaming to TikTok or to some

other social media from their court while

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they're taking care of court business.

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Christine: Yep.

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And this is McKay Chaivin who

basically said that a judge can

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record in court for whatever purpose.

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Hugh: Didn't basically say

it, he straight up said it.

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Christine: True.

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True, true, true.

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Said

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Hugh: there was no problem.

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He had no issue.

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Mm-hmm.

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Whatsoever were his words about.

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You know, judges filming and

for whatever purposes they want.

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Mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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Christine: Which I would love

for them to live stream court.

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So maybe we can have them do that.

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And two McKay Chaivin obviously open

invite to be on the podcast at any time.

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We did not run into him on Monday but

yesterday we went down and watched

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five divisions for motion Hour.

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And I will just start by

saying I was a little dramatic.

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Anxious ridden baby yesterday,

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Hugh: huh?

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Yeah.,

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You said that, and , I

felt the exact opposite.

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I, every time I go over there now, it just

confirms how miserable it was to be going

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through that slog each and every week.

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Tots, and it was so much more fun

just being there without anything

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at stake, without having to make

arguments, without having to.

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See if the other side showed up.

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Mm-hmm.

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Figure out, you know, constantly

check your email to see if someone

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has filed a last second objection

or ask for something to be called.

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You know, , and you never know

what the, the court's gonna do.

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I I do not miss that one bit.

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Christine: No, I, I did this weird thing

where like in the morning I texted you

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just like, and I was just kind of hoping

that you were gonna be like, like a little

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kid that like, doesn't wanna go to school.

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And you were be like, are

we really doing this today?

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Huh?

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Like, can we get out of this?

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I don't know why I was so anxious.

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I guess because we really, for

whatever reason, not on purpose.

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We just haven't watched a

lot of one, two, or three.

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Hugh: No, no.

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And, and we've been covering well.

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I mean, we go over

there for other reasons.

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We go over to get things that's

usually in the afternoon.

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It's sort of in the schedule of how we

produce things here and we need to be

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watching all of them equally, I think.

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Christine: Yes, I agree.

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And I will tell you,

you said this yesterday.

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You were spot on the second.

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Judge Angela Johnson started talking.

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All that anxiety went away.

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Yeah.

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I was just like, okay, there's not

gonna be some radical calling us out.

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She was really, I mean, I thought

the day started surprisingly well.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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And I, I remember that from practicing.

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I, I don't know.

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, I always, if I had something in one and

you're just starting Sunday evening,

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you start just dreading Mondays

if you have a lot of motion on, in

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Jefferson County, we have motion hour.

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All day on Monday.

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Mm-hmm.

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Basically in family court and I

guess in circuit court as well.

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It's going on everywhere.

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But she usually starts things off

with an attitude one and two, just

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this positive and you could be

arguing the most horrible thing.

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But it was an easy division to be in.

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, It was serious, but.

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More lighthearted than,

than most other divisions.

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And usually coming out of

those, I felt the same way.

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You sit down in her court and

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Yeah,

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Hugh: that's not that

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Christine: bad and relatively confident.

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I mean, there wasn't anything

that struck me as far as from

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her that I was like, oh hell no.

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I can't believe you did that.

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I can't believe you said that.

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Like, not at all to give her accolades.

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Hugh: No, no, no.

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The thing that stood out to me

was and I, and I guess I didn't

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pay attention to it as much when I

was in there and arguing motions.

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And I would leave the

division right after.

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To see how she handled pro se litigants.

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Mm-hmm.

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The dignity and the way

that she spoke to them.

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That was I.

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I thought that was great.

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Christine: She has a little bit of

an air of funny sarcasm, and I don't

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mean that in a condescending way where

she, you can relate to her as a human.

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She's no nonsense.

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Oh yeah.

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Christine: But very much is like,

we're not gonna go off track.

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Kind of thing.

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I know

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Christine: there was that one case

that was like super fascinating.

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Like procedurally I would, you know, I

thought she did great as far as docket

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management and handling the docket.

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There was a case, just the standard it

seems to be nowadays, allegations of

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domestic violence, allegations of parental

coaching, and then there was that forensic

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interview, which I thought was so bizarre.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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I want to, I wanna follow that.

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I wanna see how that turns out.

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There were just.

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Yeah, that didn't make sense.

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Christine: And there's so many cases now

where you have all of these, if you ever

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have an allegation of domestic violence.

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Then on the flip side of that,

there's gonna be the allegation

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of parental alienation.

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And then you have all these quote

unquote experts getting involved and

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forensic interviews, custodial evaluator

interviews, therapy interviews, FOCs.

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There was an FOC on the case.

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That was a little interesting.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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Christine: So we had a common

theme while we were there.

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I guess, is it okay to talk about this?

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Yeah,

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Hugh: absolutely.

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Christine: And so for people that

don't know, actually, Hugh created,

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well, it's not it's case law.

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It's a fabulous case.

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It was his firm and he was the

attorney that appealed Bryan Gatewood.

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And we got this case called a Adair v.

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Emberton We do not have time to

go into it today, although it is

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extremely important and we promise

to do a full, like in-depth,

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probably it'll be an hour long break.

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Down.

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Sure.

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Because if you're in family

court and you've got kids, you

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need to know this case, right?

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Hugh: Yes, absolutely.

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Christine: And he is an expert as far

as this goes, but short, my little short

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quip of it basically is just that an FOC

can't speak unless they filed a report.

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Am I wrong?

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Yeah.

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Hugh: I mean, they are tasked as a

fact witness to do an investigation

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regarding some aspect of best interest

of the child, some aspect of the

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case, and the rules say for them.

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Before they, you know, before

a proceeding, before the court,

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they have to file a report.

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They have to get that report and

their notes and or give access to all

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of their notes and their processes

10 days prior to the proceeding.

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Christine: And so the FOC, of course, this

judge immediately goes to her, the FOC,

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and is like, well, what's your opinion?

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And she did something that at the

time, you know, you and I looked

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at each other and we were like,

oh, they're watching our podcast.

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But then it became a common theme.

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She was like, well, they're not, you know.

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I'm an FOC judge and I

don't wanna waive Emberton.

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That was the verbiage, right?

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Or

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Hugh: or unless they

want to waive Emberton.

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Yeah.

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I can't say anything and I think

the reason, I mean my opinion

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because there was nothing.

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There was the Emberton case was very

egregious in what the judge did.

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Oh yeah.

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But I don't think it was uncommon.

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It certainly, I didn't believe it to

be legally novel and, but I think they

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were getting fed up with the practice of

courts, just asking friend of court, you

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know, leaning on them for advice mm-hmm.

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And asking what they should do.

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And it is, it's one thing where

you, you take your court appointment

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and you do your investigation.

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You file your report, and you

get cross-examined at a hearing.

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That's the way the process

is supposed to work.

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You're not supposed to just show up,

have an opinion, have your opinion rubber

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stamped, and talk to the court as a

person not, and not ever be sworn in.

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I mean, there were so many issues.

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With that.

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They were dressed in Emberton and

it was just sort of longstanding

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practice that I think the Court

of appeals was getting sick of,

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Christine: and it was common

practice in Louisville.

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Again, the case you had was just this

judge in particular is egregious with

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courtroom demeanor, but what was a little

weird is basically what the friend of

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the court said too, was like, well,

counsel, you can say what I said to

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you, and I'm just like, oh my goodness.

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I mean, this is hearsay, but.

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Counsel basically just said, well,

the FOC feels da da dah da da da.

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Super inappropriate.

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The judge allowed it.

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They're trying to figure out ways

to get around, filing the report.

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Definitely a case to follow

forensic interviews to, are done

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well, like immediately after.

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If there's allegations of like

SA or, I mean typically I think

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essay or physical abuse at

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Hugh: You say immediately after.

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I almost never see it immediately after.

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Christine: Well, it would be

immediately in time from the report

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to the professional as opposed to

if you were in family court, they

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would allow the child to leave.

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And so a forensic interview in

order to be accurate, typically is

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gonna be done like in immediate.

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If you report it to a trooper,

you're gonna be taken to whatever

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agency in that county does it?

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They, my understanding from speaking

with psychologists is that forensic

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interviews are the most reliable.

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Now I don't have an expertise in that,

but that's just my understanding.

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Have you ever listened to one?

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Hugh: Oh, yeah.

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I've watched them.

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I've watched some of the most.

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Christine: Mm-hmm.

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Hugh: The, uh mm-hmm.

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Most misguided Never asked

the correct questions.

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Just absolutely worthless forensic

interviews I've ever seen and think.

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Well, the kid didn't say

anything here, so we can't really

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say that anything happened.

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It's like you never

asked a single question.

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Oh.

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I mean, it was just, and, and it

wasn't like slowly working into it and

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being, being good, you know, like a

therapeutically getting into a subject.

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It was just.

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Shoddy work.

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Christine: Oh, I've seen

forensic interviews when I was

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a juvenile public defender.

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I saw one, one time that like,

literally the hairs on my arm stood up.

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When I just talked about it.

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It like traumatized me

beyond, traumatized me.

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It's difficult for me to even

like, think about, but I think that

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could go back to, to the just the

Louisville component of doing things

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the way Louisville does it, which is.

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Probably, you know, Louisville thinks a

lot of times that they're like the best

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and the brightest of every, everything.

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I don't necessarily think that's the case.

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It's funny because I didn't,

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Hugh: it's, the interviews I've

seen in Louisville have been good.

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The ones that I've seen from out

of county were, yeah, shocking.

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And I was measuring them

against some of the ones that

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I saw that were done very well.

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Well, here.

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So that, I mean that

was just my experience.

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Christine: That's funny.

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But there was notion too, the, it seemed

the court ruling and we'll move on.

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Sorry.

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We're talking a lot about this when

there were so many cases that were

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interesting, but it seemed like the

judge said, I'm gonna give the forensic

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interview only to the FOC and no one else.

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Hugh: Yeah, that's what it was.

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Christine: I mean, that's idiotic.

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'cause there a better word.

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Hugh: Well, I just don't

understand how it can be used.

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The friend of the court can't

come in and give hearsay evidence.

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There are a few, there's some case law

where there, there are a few exceptions

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to that, but they, they're not gonna be

able to come in and talk about what a

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report says if the parties are barred from

being able to review the report itself.

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Christine: And even big picture though,

it's just like there are allegations a.

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Mother and father's child was abused.

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The mother and father have a right

to see the recording of their

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child talking about their abuse.

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Yeah.

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Hugh: This is, this is exactly facing

your accusers, the constitutional right,

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but also as a, as a practitioner, I,

you know, if the friend of the court was

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against my client and the weight of the

evidence seemed to be against my client,

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I might want them to review that report

so that when they're testifying I can.

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I can on cross examination, get them

to admit that their their opinion was

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formed based on a third party statement.

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That's inadmissible and, and high level.

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High level, yeah.

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Oh, I have no, I get it, but it just

sets up my, my point is it sets up.

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So many problems if this case

goes to trial, the, the, the

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admission of evidence and things,

it just causes so many problems.

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Christine: Yeah.

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Idiotic.

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And also most forensic evaluations

too, I don't wanna say most, but a lot

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of times it could be the perpetrator

could be not the mom or the dad.

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I mean, parents also the right to

face the accused, but also parental.

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The constitutionally protected

right to parent your child.

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You have a right to see that as a parent.

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Hugh: Yeah, but I mean, I just think,

again, as an attorney, you're preparing

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for the report of a , friend of the court.

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You're preparing the examination at

trial of a friend of a court, but

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you don't get to see what I mean.

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It's insane and.

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The rule says that they prepare a

report 10 days before and have to

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give you full access to the materials

they use to give that report.

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How does that jive with a, with

an order that only the front

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of the court gets to review?

389

:

Certain evidence.

390

:

Absolutely.

391

:

Christine: And I will tell you, I

would say as far as being an expert

392

:

on friend of the court, what they can

or can't do, I practiced for 10 years

393

:

and Hugh literally knows everything.

394

:

I feel like you're, you should give

like Ted talks on what a friend of

395

:

the court is in Kentucky, you know?

396

:

Seriously.

397

:

'cause people don't follow the rules and

I don't think that attorneys know how

398

:

to preserve the issues either, really?

399

:

Hugh: Oh.

400

:

I think the way that the system

has been used a way friend of the

401

:

court's been used, I don't think

there's anybody that can tell you.

402

:

What it is anymore.

403

:

Christine: Yeah.

404

:

And real.

405

:

If this is your first episode with

us, very, very briefly, two types

406

:

of attorneys, GAL for children

that are appointed by the court.

407

:

GAL, guardian ad litem, that's

actually the child's attorney.

408

:

And then a friend of the court, like

he was saying, is a, not, doesn't

409

:

have to be attorney, typically

is, but is appointed to be a fact

410

:

witness and investigative body.

411

:

Right.

412

:

And so then we had a, you know,

in one we were kind of chilling.

413

:

We saw some people we

knew had a good vibe.

414

:

Motion hours typically go an hour,

but they're stacked in half hours.

415

:

So we immediately bounced over

to Shelly Santry in Division two.

416

:

Division two.

417

:

I know.

418

:

You, you wanna start with this one?

419

:

'cause you were Yeah.

420

:

Hugh: I, my, my biggest takeaway though,

this was the one that blew me away for

421

:

the day, the fact that she was giving

out hearing dates from the bench.

422

:

And most judges, you go back and you

talk to the staff to get a hearing date.

423

:

And.

424

:

Everyone else in the

courtroom doesn't hear.

425

:

Mm-hmm.

426

:

Getting hearing dates, it just, I

mean, it just speeds things along.

427

:

She was just giving out hearing dates

to people while they were arguing the

428

:

case, which gives us some insight into

how quickly, like how open her docket is

429

:

and how quickly she can get people in.

430

:

I was blown away.

431

:

She was getting people in first

week of September, and I think that

432

:

she offered somebody sometime that

had opened up like on August 25th.

433

:

Christine: So blown away, good or bad.

434

:

Hugh: Oh, good.

435

:

Like phenomenal, like so many

divisions you go in, you would

436

:

be three, four months out.

437

:

Mm-hmm.

438

:

Just to get a basic hearing.

439

:

She was giving people half days

in October, which is really

440

:

short amount of time when you're

requesting a half of a judge's day.

441

:

When typically if they have district

court dockets different dockets three

442

:

days a week, they only have four

halves of days to get anything done.

443

:

You're taking half of one of those

to be able to get someone in October.

444

:

That was mind blowing.

445

:

And, and the, my big takeaway

is if they can do that in two.

446

:

Why the hell can't we do

that in other divisions?

447

:

Christine: Yeah.

448

:

I feel like I looked over

and your mouth like was agape

449

:

because it was like, oh God.

450

:

The first time she said

451

:

Hugh: September something, I was

like, wait, what was that September?

452

:

Christine: Yeah.

453

:

And I did think it was really shocking

that division for me for like two reasons.

454

:

I thought it was run really well.

455

:

Yeah.

456

:

I didn't necessarily, so what she

does on her docket is she kind

457

:

of does like a first call, like

which is done in other states.

458

:

So she kind of was like, if

you have a quick thing Yeah.

459

:

Like.

460

:

You could have your case called, and

then she's gonna handle all of the

461

:

attorneys and she's gonna handle all

of the pro ses which I kind of like.

462

:

Hugh: Yeah.

463

:

And, and the way she described

it and explained to the

464

:

proces why they were last.

465

:

Mm-hmm.

466

:

And it didn't mean they

were less important.

467

:

She could give them more time.

468

:

Yep.

469

:

The attorneys can move on.

470

:

I thought that was excellent.

471

:

Christine: Oh, that was

a really good point.

472

:

Like if you were in her courtroom

and you had never been to court

473

:

before, I think you would've

understood the process immediately

474

:

Hugh: and you would've

been so much less nervous.

475

:

Mm-hmm.

476

:

And worried about it given her

demeanor in the way she handled it.

477

:

Christine: Yes.

478

:

Now, the other side of it, just

for me, is seeing what happens to a

479

:

judge once they take the bench in the

sense of having known them before.

480

:

Right.

481

:

Like, judge Santry was, I

donated to her campaign.

482

:

Y'all know I'm very vocal

about the fact we should not

483

:

be able to do that as lawyers.

484

:

But I did endorse her.

485

:

I did donate to her campaign.

486

:

She dedicated her life

basically to domestic violence.

487

:

And the way the bench has sort of changed

her in some ways is shocking to see.

488

:

And ha, I do have some sympathy for her.

489

:

She looked.

490

:

Dramatically different.

491

:

Just very, you could feel

the stress, could you not?

492

:

Hugh: Yeah.

493

:

I mean, , I see that with most

of 'em that are on the bench.

494

:

I, I didn't know her well enough

personally , to really know.

495

:

Mm-hmm.

496

:

I mean, she certainly seemed

different then when I used to

497

:

practice against her a whole lot.

498

:

But that was, when I actually think

back, that was a long time ago.

499

:

We probably all look very different.

500

:

I, I just know that,

501

:

Christine: to me it was

like a dramatic shift.

502

:

See, she's the first judge in Louisville

family court that I knew as a litigator

503

:

before that went on the bench.

504

:

It was, it was a starly dramatic

505

:

Hugh: because she was actually a

litigator before she went on the bench.

506

:

That's pretty rare.

507

:

That part.

508

:

Christine: That part.

509

:

It's very rare.

510

:

I was very disappointed in Shelly

for not vocally coming out.

511

:

Saying, Hey, Denise Brown, you shouldn't

have selfie recorded the domestic

512

:

violence hearing just because she

dedicated her life to domestic violence.

513

:

But you could just feel it made me

have sympathy for the judges and I know

514

:

to our listeners, but I did because I

could see the lack of joy and happiness

515

:

that was like emulating from her.

516

:

And I don't mean to say that to be mean.

517

:

I'm not kidding.

518

:

I'm like, literally, I

had sympathy because.

519

:

She did seem a little bit like

just the, I could feel the stress.

520

:

Yeah.

521

:

Is that wrong to say?

522

:

I'm not trying to be mean in any way.

523

:

I mean, she handled the

docket very efficiently and it

524

:

Hugh: wasn't the only

one that we felt that in.

525

:

Christine: Yeah.

526

:

Hugh: Yeah.

527

:

Christine: The other thing too, I loved

how she handled the docket, but just

528

:

for perspective of us not seeing what

happens to pro se people, if pro se

529

:

stuff is handled at the end, there's

just no way a lawyers would know.

530

:

And I'm not saying it makes sense

'cause lawyers are getting paid hourly.

531

:

The judge is actually saving money

to people that have attorneys.

532

:

Oh yeah.

533

:

Like I'm not criticizing her, but

that could be one of the reasons why

534

:

we don't know what's happening in

cases involving two pro se people.

535

:

Hugh: No, that's right.

536

:

And that's what I mean.

537

:

It was interesting for me to see, and

oftentimes when we've gone to motion hour.

538

:

The, the latter division, some of the

ones we've been to have taken long enough,

539

:

we haven't gotten to the pro se cases

'cause we've had to run to the next one.

540

:

Mm-hmm.

541

:

And, and judges get to attorney

cases first so they can get

542

:

to the next motion hour.

543

:

And one judge isn't holding up everything

happening in the other division.

544

:

So , it makes sense to do that,

but also they can spend the time

545

:

necessary for the pro se cases.

546

:

Mm-hmm.

547

:

And I just as a practitioner, I

ran to the next division, didn't

548

:

see those pros se cases very often.

549

:

So it was interesting to see how.

550

:

how each judge handled it, and I guess

to a certain extent how differently

551

:

it was handled between each division.

552

:

Although I didn't see a huge difference

between the divisions that actually

553

:

addressed pro se people specifically.

554

:

Christine: I would say

nine outta 10 though.

555

:

Courtroom demeanor.

556

:

Courtroom control.

557

:

Hugh: Oh yeah.

558

:

Christine: Courtroom respect.

559

:

You knew you weren't gonna get

yelled at by her, but you also

560

:

knew not to step outta line.

561

:

I got that feeling, you know what I mean?

562

:

With her?

563

:

Hugh: Well, well, she's

always been that way.

564

:

Do you remember her as a, as a litigator?

565

:

She was.

566

:

She was tenacious and intimidating,

but was also always just very

567

:

professional and friendly.

568

:

She was one of the most.

569

:

Fun people mm-hmm.

570

:

To, to have hearings with.

571

:

And you always kept you on your toes.

572

:

I always, I always en enjoyed

same practicing with her.

573

:

Christine: And then I think this

is probably when it took a turn for

574

:

the bad as it started in three, the,

575

:

Hugh: the first two, it was just

like, wow, we're not gonna get

576

:

anything good out of this day.

577

:

And then we, then it just, yeah.

578

:

Christine: Oh my word.

579

:

I mean, we went into three

and then packed house.

580

:

Louder, less courtroom control.

581

:

Now this is Lori Goodwin personally.

582

:

I like, I don't wanna say I probably do.

583

:

I like her the best of all of them as

far as like personally, like, and just

584

:

I, when she was at Legal Aid, she was

fabulous to have a conversation with.

585

:

She was always seemed to be like

super prepared, knew the law.

586

:

That was my experience with her.

587

:

But this case, it just

started to get outta control.

588

:

And then we had the kid not in school.

589

:

Hugh: Yeah.

590

:

One of the things that stood out

to me in our, the first time we

591

:

sat through the latter divisions.

592

:

Mm-hmm.

593

:

Were there, there were two big takeaways.

594

:

One, the difference in, and we talked

about it, the difference between say

595

:

division eight and division nine, like

the docket control, the efficiency.

596

:

Yeah.

597

:

The way you handle things.

598

:

That was my, a big takeaway.

599

:

But also certain judges, now that

I've, I've, it had been a couple

600

:

months since I've seen them and

see how stressed , some of them

601

:

looked, it was sort of similar here.

602

:

There were, there were two themes.

603

:

One was the competency in the way you

handled certain issues, or maybe it's

604

:

not so much the competency, it's the

authority, the way you acted as a judge.

605

:

Okay, this is what's going on.

606

:

I recognize it.

607

:

And you have clarity.

608

:

Yeah.

609

:

As to either I can do something

or we need to have a hearing so I

610

:

can do something and then move on.

611

:

Uhhuh,

612

:

Hugh: it just started

breaking down in three.

613

:

The other was, yeah.

614

:

Yeah, the other was.

615

:

It was the demeanor and then the

way that it sort of felt in the

616

:

courtroom and it just felt plaus.

617

:

Like very different, palpably,

different, going from two to three.

618

:

Christine: And so attorneys,

we are used to like, if we

619

:

can get away with it, we will.

620

:

And we're not saying like

outside the bounds, but like.

621

:

Oh yeah.

622

:

To

623

:

Christine: take it outta context,

there was an attorney, I mean, there

624

:

was a judge age to practice in front

of an eastern Kentucky, like literally

625

:

the person that spoke last one.

626

:

And so you would know

like, okay, I don't care.

627

:

I'm just gonna keep arguing my case.

628

:

And then there was an attorney that

was like, if you did that, they were

629

:

gonna be like, I've made my ruling.

630

:

Like they, the, the management of what

attorneys knew they could get away with.

631

:

But when we got to division three,

and it was also just the first case we

632

:

walked in, was an absolute shit show.

633

:

We got a kid.

634

:

That like literally is

not enrolled in school.

635

:

It is August 18th.

636

:

The judge is like, what do you mean

the kid's not enrolled in school?

637

:

And then you picked up

on this, I missed it.

638

:

There was a hearing in 2024.

639

:

I,

640

:

Hugh: I believe that's what they said.

641

:

Now I don't know if that's the

one that's still outstanding.

642

:

You know, whether a ruling

is still outstanding.

643

:

It, it sounded like

that's what was going on.

644

:

In any event, this is under submission.

645

:

, The custodial where the child's

gonna live and therefore where the

646

:

child is going to go to school.

647

:

Yeah.

648

:

Hugh: Is outstanding for

the court to rule on.

649

:

Right.

650

:

And there's no answer.

651

:

So the parties have just decided

to play chicken literally, and

652

:

the kid's just not in school.

653

:

And the judge was shocked by it.

654

:

But that happens all the time.

655

:

Mm-hmm.

656

:

Not necessarily children

not being in school.

657

:

Things that are normal.

658

:

And you think, how, how in

the world could this happen?

659

:

Well, it's because they're

waiting on you, judge.

660

:

Yep.

661

:

To actually rule on a

case that you've heard.

662

:

Christine: Yeah.

663

:

And make a decision.

664

:

And it's like, that's what was so amazing

about Judge Santry is the fact that if you

665

:

had an issue about holiday time, I mean,

if you called me when I was practicing

666

:

on August 18th and you're like, I don't

have a parenting schedule for Christmas.

667

:

It's like.

668

:

Nuts and bolts.

669

:

'cause you screwed, you know what I mean?

670

:

We're not totally luck.

671

:

Yeah.

672

:

We're not gonna get in

front of a judge now.

673

:

We can try to get an agreement between

the parties and blah, blah, blah.

674

:

But like you are not gonna

get in front of a judge.

675

:

But then this case was just super

bizarre because now the kid is a

676

:

hundred percent set up for failure

because there was something about

677

:

private school that the private school

might not even accept the kid anymore.

678

:

And then JCPS, the kid's gonna be

late getting enrolled coming in.

679

:

And the judge was just basically

like, I'll get an order out, but

680

:

the kid needs to be enrolled.

681

:

It's like, okay, well like where?

682

:

Hugh: Yeah.

683

:

Just give some guidance.

684

:

Yeah.

685

:

You are the judge.

686

:

Christine: Or make a fucking

687

:

Hugh: decision.

688

:

Yeah.

689

:

Just do something.

690

:

And so three was where that kind

of started and that got, well,

691

:

I mean, that case was weird.

692

:

There were allegations Yeah.

693

:

By one attorney that the other attorney

was behind the kid not being in school

694

:

and advising his client to do that.

695

:

I mean, it was.

696

:

, I wanna pay attention to that case, but

it's the judge not controlling things.

697

:

Yeah, yeah.

698

:

And moving things forward and, and

taking, you know, taking a position or

699

:

doing something to solve the problem.

700

:

Sort of began in three, but it

was just out of control in four.

701

:

Christine: Yeah.

702

:

I would say one, two,

and three real quick.

703

:

They all, I would say the

judges had read the motions

704

:

that we saw though before court.

705

:

I was really pleased by that.

706

:

Yeah.

707

:

Like they were, which, you know,

we shouldn't, that should be basic.

708

:

But then we get to four and I'm telling

y'all, I mean, wild, wild west, we had

709

:

three cases on that involved court of

appeals, at least three that we know of.

710

:

But she.

711

:

This is Judge Lauren Ogden.

712

:

I mean, I don't even know where to begin.

713

:

Hugh: Well, she

714

:

there.

715

:

There are things you can do.

716

:

You can do, set a hearing, control

your docket, things you shouldn't

717

:

be ruling on from the bench.

718

:

Get a hearing date, send them on.

719

:

You don't need to let them just

talk and talk and talk and talk or.

720

:

If there's something you can

handle at motion hour, handle it.

721

:

There were times where she would,

someone would suggest something or

722

:

say, this is what should happen, and

instead of having an opinion on it,

723

:

she would turn to the other son and

go, what do you think about that?

724

:

What if you just did, and it was

just like, like half heartedly

725

:

mediating the cases and never.

726

:

Making a stand on anything.

727

:

Christine: Yeah.

728

:

And then this is a division two where it's

like last one to talk because there was a

729

:

case on and one of the attorneys was late

and this is nothing against the attorney.

730

:

I think they were either maybe may have

731

:

Hugh: been still in two.

732

:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

733

:

Christine: I mean three.

734

:

Yeah.

735

:

But the judge basically was like,

there's no way I'm putting this

736

:

case on for at the end of August.

737

:

And then once the attorney jumps

on and they make their case, and

738

:

she's like, well, I think I'm gonna

put it on for the August hearing.

739

:

Oh yeah.

740

:

And you're like, you just as a judge,

you should never, and I don't want

741

:

judges to not admit when they're wrong.

742

:

It wasn't

743

:

Hugh: the, even the end of August.

744

:

It was seven days from yesterday.

745

:

Well, which means you've

added an issue to a hearing.

746

:

There will not be an order coming out

that says seven days before you have to

747

:

exchange exhibits 'cause there's no time.

748

:

Christine: Yeah.

749

:

I mean, I'm a, you know, criminal's,

how I was raised, I mean, which we had

750

:

very serious hearings in seven days.

751

:

I don't necessarily have a problem

with the ruling in and of itself as

752

:

far as big picture, , but you had rules

753

:

Hugh: that said you have a right to

the evidence as a defense attorney.

754

:

You got, what was there?

755

:

What the prosecution had.

756

:

You had a right to see it before you had a

hearing on an issue specifically about it.

757

:

Here you don't, the person didn't

include the basis for the motion.

758

:

With the motion.

759

:

Allegedly.

760

:

Allegedly.

761

:

Christine: But the thing, well, my

thing was just though as a judge,

762

:

like it's okay to admit when you're

wrong, but you can do it in a way

763

:

that's not for all of the crowd to see.

764

:

I adamantly ruled A and then someone

else speaks and I just completely, 180.

765

:

To be.

766

:

Yeah.

767

:

And so then everyone watching

is just like, oh, I can get

768

:

her, you know, no client man.

769

:

I mean, no courtroom management.

770

:

Whatsoever.

771

:

Hugh: I mean, , I used to issue guidance

for young associates or new associates

772

:

at my firm and would talk about the

tendencies of judges, and that was

773

:

definitely in four Speak last, but, you

know, interestingly just letting people

774

:

argue and talk and then the next person

talk and then they were talking over each

775

:

other and would sit there and listen to

the arguments of them talking over each

776

:

other and not control her courtroom.

777

:

Yeah.

778

:

But then there was an occasion

where one attorney started talking.

779

:

And was explaining emotion, I guess,

you know, technically the other side

780

:

wasn't there and she needed to call

the case back when the other side

781

:

got there, but she just, right in the

middle of a statement, put him on mute

782

:

and said, oh, I just had to mute you

because I just, I forgot about that.

783

:

Just muted his mic.

784

:

It was, I mean, but.

785

:

I always got the impression that there

just was never any courtroom control.

786

:

Christine: No.

787

:

And you wanna know what's interesting?

788

:

We saw one attorney that had the exact

same issue in division two and in

789

:

division four, literally identical issue.

790

:

The issue was a hair follicle drug screen.

791

:

This attorney was saying it

doesn't rise to the standard.

792

:

This is an invasion of privacy.

793

:

This is a violation of

constitutional rights.

794

:

Yep.

795

:

And the way the attorney argued

it in two compared to four.

796

:

It was so different because that's

what is allowed and what works.

797

:

Yeah.

798

:

And I mean this attorney was about to

lose it in four, like I'm talking about,

799

:

was just trying to explain to the,

there was a frustration 'cause I don't

800

:

think the judge maybe fully understood

the argument, which I don't know how

801

:

you wouldn't, it's so basic, but it

just really showed the difference in.

802

:

Courtroom management Ha.

803

:

The respect level that attorneys

kind of have like, and this

804

:

attorney's very respectful in court.

805

:

I'm not trying to say anything

nefarious, but it was just,

806

:

it was the exact same issue.

807

:

I mean, you

808

:

Hugh: could just, the frustration.

809

:

Mm-hmm.

810

:

And the arguments.

811

:

So the attorneys would make the

arguments in some divisions and.

812

:

You knew the time you had, you

made the argument, the judge

813

:

listened to it, allowed the other

side you know, to, to respond.

814

:

And if you needed to follow up, you asked.

815

:

And the judge would let you respond.

816

:

And then the judge would consider it and

would say something and the attorneys

817

:

wouldn't be frustrated If they lost, they

would be, you know, it was disappointing.

818

:

Mm-hmm.

819

:

And if it, when it gets you.

820

:

But it was just, that's the ruling.

821

:

Yeah.

822

:

They thought about it, they

listened to the arguments.

823

:

That's the way it's

supposed to go in four.

824

:

You could tell how just.

825

:

Frustrated the attorneys were Oh.

826

:

And they just knew they could keep

arguing and we keep arguing afterwards

827

:

and just would argue with the judge.

828

:

Mm-hmm.

829

:

And she would engage in it

instead of saying, I've made my

830

:

ruling, get out, you're done.

831

:

Mm-hmm.

832

:

Get out.

833

:

It would just engage.

834

:

Engage the parties in it.

835

:

Christine: I talked to an attorney

afterwards that was like, I go to this

836

:

motion every week just to watch the show.

837

:

Hugh: I sat next to someone who

came in and didn't have a case

838

:

on, didn't argue anything, and

then just left, and I'm just like.

839

:

This is the, this is either their

entertainment or they've I, I don't

840

:

know, but it, it was something other

than having a case on and it, it

841

:

really was fascinating watching.

842

:

You went on to five.

843

:

I stayed in four Just 'cause it was, it

was like the accident you drive by and you

844

:

just keep staring at it as you drive by.

845

:

Christine: Oh, you have?

846

:

Okay.

847

:

He says that about four.

848

:

Well, I left, I went on to five and it

was probably three minutes in that I

849

:

was texting you and I was like, you are.

850

:

This is insanity.

851

:

Yeah, this is absolute insanity.

852

:

So then I go to division five

and we are what, 11 o'clock?

853

:

Right?

854

:

So we've been there for two hours

and it's so, I mean, you can just

855

:

like feel it percolating in the air.

856

:

The chaos, like it is just,

but in division five, this

857

:

is Judge Jessica Stone.

858

:

She did not have.

859

:

Any idea what the legal arguments

that these attorneys were making?

860

:

There was a case with four attorneys,

all well-seasoned litigators from

861

:

all different spectrums, and the

one attorney finally just said, all

862

:

right, and they were fighting about.

863

:

It was a very contentious case from

like:

864

:

a therapist and reunification and

then one attorney who's probably been

865

:

practicing 40 years, maybe 50, I don't

know, was like basically, alright,

866

:

we're just gonna take this like really

basic and start from the beginning.

867

:

And then this other attorney who has

known, what's the opposite of brevity.

868

:

Ha

869

:

Hugh: ha.

870

:

Verbosity.

871

:

Christine: What is

872

:

Hugh: it?

873

:

Verbosity.

874

:

Christine: Verbosity.

875

:

Okay.

876

:

We're gonna have a thing where Hugh

teaches me one, how to pronounce words

877

:

and two, how to use them appropriately.

878

:

Oh, I've just been

879

:

Hugh: accused of it quite a bit

in my, what's it one more time?

880

:

Verbosity.

881

:

Christine: Verbosity.

882

:

Okay.

883

:

This attorney literally said, your Honor,

I'm gonna make this real simple for you.

884

:

I think the exact opposite

of what she just said.

885

:

I just

886

:

Hugh: think that is so brilliant

when you're in a situation.

887

:

Where you're arguing something and

the, the court is just not getting

888

:

it, and you run the risk of, and the

other side lays it out very simply,

889

:

and you just don't wanna muddy it.

890

:

You just wanna make it clear that w.

891

:

The facts and the law, we

see the exact opposite way.

892

:

Christine: Yeah,

893

:

Hugh: it's just,

894

:

Christine: and then there were two

other attorneys in and it was shocking.

895

:

And then all the lawyers are looking

at me when they come back that are like

896

:

diametrically opposed, and they're just

like, what did, what just happened?

897

:

Also, this case, get back to our theme.

898

:

So in three we heard something

about waiving the Emberton

899

:

rule, so then this case.

900

:

One of the attorneys was like, I'm not

waiving the Emberton rule, because the

901

:

FOC was on Zoom to make a recommendation.

902

:

And I'm telling you this case, you

could tell just from the attorneys,

903

:

they were all high paid attorneys,

you know, 12 years of litigation.

904

:

You gotta think this is a six

figure case on each side, right?

905

:

Hugh: Oh, I don't know.

906

:

I,, I have no idea.

907

:

They, you know, they, they were

acting as if it was, it sounds like,

908

:

Christine: I mean, 12 years,

even if you're just at 10,000

909

:

a year for heavy litigation.

910

:

Hugh: I mean, I, the part, yeah,

I mean, I would think the parties

911

:

have, have easily, easily, easily

cleared the six figure mark.

912

:

I just even, I don't have

any personal knowledge of it.

913

:

Christine: I don't even know what

the other attorney was up there for.

914

:

And all this attorney said was like.

915

:

These kids are in real danger,

like something along those lines.

916

:

And the judge was just like, oh, well

I'm gonna take it under submission.

917

:

And I don't even think it was

something that you could have.

918

:

I, I don't know.

919

:

I got so confused and

then you popped over.

920

:

But I will tell you one, in division

five, there no case manager they

921

:

no docket control whatsoever.

922

:

Did you feel?

923

:

Hugh: No, no, no, no.

924

:

And I, and I got the feeling

in both four and five.

925

:

The demeanor from the court

was just like, well, I don't

926

:

know what I can do about that.

927

:

Okay.

928

:

And

929

:

Hugh: it's like, well then

who the hell can, right,

930

:

right, right.

931

:

Hugh: If anyone else could

do anything about it, they

932

:

wouldn't be in family court.

933

:

This is a court of last

resort, and you are it.

934

:

Yeah.

935

:

The buck stops with you.

936

:

You are the only person right,

that can do anything about this.

937

:

How in the world can you sit there

and say, well, I, I just really

938

:

don't know what to do and, and.

939

:

But say that out to everyone who

was just staring and thinking,

940

:

what, what bizarre universe am I in?

941

:

Christine: And then there was a case

on about, and this is where the judge

942

:

really went on, like this diatribe,

and this is where it makes me think

943

:

it comes just like straight from Mike

o Connell because the whole notion of

944

:

the name change thing, like making this

a big to do when in family court, a

945

:

name change is like of no importance.

946

:

Hugh: I don't know if I'd say that.

947

:

I've had some serious

fights over her names.

948

:

Okay.

949

:

So no, no names.

950

:

I'm

951

:

Christine: not talking about like

a, as far as what your client

952

:

thinks is important, I'm talking

about Oh, you're talking about just

953

:

Hugh: getting it done.

954

:

Christine: Best interest of the child.

955

:

Oh yeah, absolutely.

956

:

Like or just like Oh, absolutely.

957

:

Safety of the child.

958

:

Danger of the child.

959

:

Like something that should be, you

should be on your soapbox on as a judge.

960

:

But she is requiring now for new petitions

to be filed for a name change if there's

961

:

a family court action and for new service.

962

:

Which to me is just a bizarre, because

essentially if you have a custody case,

963

:

if you get divorced in 2022, right?

964

:

That case is like open.

965

:

You can file motions in it

forever and ever and ever and

966

:

ever, and you don't have to.

967

:

There are some circumstances,

but if you file a motion.

968

:

In that within six months you

don't have to get new service.

969

:

Right?

970

:

Hugh: Correct.

971

:

Christine: And she was saying

for the name change you did.

972

:

So you have to get new service to change

a child's name, but not new service

973

:

to suspend someone's parenting time.

974

:

Hugh: Yeah, I mean, it's strange

because there is a, you know,

975

:

a petition for name change.

976

:

It's usually have, you know, handled

in, it was handled in probate court

977

:

over in district court district.

978

:

Yeah.

979

:

And it required, I mean, you've

a new filing fee, a new and.

980

:

I'm, I don't know, maybe it's just

about getting another filing fee, but in

981

:

family court it's regular that mm-hmm.

982

:

Judges change kids' names.

983

:

Mm-hmm.

984

:

It happens in almost

every single adoption.

985

:

Yep.

986

:

It hand, I mean, it, it, and they,

they change adults' names all the

987

:

time as well because, and it's legal

988

:

Christine: standards, best interest.

989

:

Right.

990

:

Hugh: And or consent if you're an adult.

991

:

Mm-hmm.

992

:

But yeah, I mean, there's just, there.

993

:

We don't make adults.

994

:

For instance, when you are going back

to your maiden name, if you choose

995

:

to do so at the end of a divorce.

996

:

Yeah.

997

:

Hugh: If you are just, if you were not

going through a divorce proceeding, we.

998

:

The way to do it was you go fill out

that a OC form over in district court

999

:

and you would go through and file a new

a new action and there'd be service.

:

00:39:46,623 --> 00:39:47,073

Well, I don't know.

:

00:39:47,073 --> 00:39:48,278

There wouldn't be service in that case.

:

00:39:48,278 --> 00:39:48,558

Mm-hmm.

:

00:39:48,643 --> 00:39:50,013

But you would have to go through that.

:

00:39:50,073 --> 00:39:53,733

But you don't because it's already within

the jurisdiction of the family court.

:

00:39:53,733 --> 00:39:55,653

The court can actually do that.

:

00:39:55,653 --> 00:39:58,623

I don't know why you would need

another one other than just.

:

00:39:58,888 --> 00:40:00,178

Another filing fee to the courts.

:

00:40:00,208 --> 00:40:00,508

Christine: Yep.

:

00:40:00,508 --> 00:40:04,198

And I think that was 100% a talking

point or something that was fed to

:

00:40:04,198 --> 00:40:08,488

her by either you know, somebody

on the clerk side or somebody else.

:

00:40:08,488 --> 00:40:11,308

Because I don't think that

the thought was original.

:

00:40:11,308 --> 00:40:15,188

It could be, and I'm not trying to be

disparaging, but I'll tell you I am.

:

00:40:15,783 --> 00:40:16,003

Hugh: It.

:

00:40:16,188 --> 00:40:19,638

It really sounded like, okay, here's

how we've been told we have to do it now

:

00:40:19,998 --> 00:40:22,368

Christine: and not by no

other court's doing it.

:

00:40:22,368 --> 00:40:26,388

It's just division five, who literally

has no family court experience whatsoever.

:

00:40:26,388 --> 00:40:26,478

None.

:

00:40:26,778 --> 00:40:27,078

Well, I don't

:

00:40:27,078 --> 00:40:27,258

Hugh: know.

:

00:40:27,258 --> 00:40:29,148

Did we see that issue in other courts?

:

00:40:29,148 --> 00:40:30,043

Do we know that they're not doing it?

:

00:40:31,953 --> 00:40:36,183

Christine: The verbiage that she spoke

about was like, no, that's not how, it

:

00:40:36,183 --> 00:40:37,923

was very much like, this is just my court.

:

00:40:37,953 --> 00:40:37,983

Okay.

:

00:40:37,983 --> 00:40:38,043

Yeah.

:

00:40:38,043 --> 00:40:38,973

That's how I took it.

:

00:40:38,973 --> 00:40:40,683

If I'm wrong, I will apologize.

:

00:40:40,683 --> 00:40:45,193

But I don't, I think it's something

that only someone that only practiced

:

00:40:45,193 --> 00:40:46,873

in district court would ever think is a.

:

00:40:47,248 --> 00:40:48,538

Important personally.

:

00:40:48,658 --> 00:40:50,968

Like it's just like, bless your heart.

:

00:40:50,998 --> 00:40:51,778

You know what I mean?

:

00:40:51,988 --> 00:40:53,848

You ain't in Kansas anymore.

:

00:40:53,948 --> 00:40:56,288

But I have serious concerns

about Division five, serious

:

00:40:56,288 --> 00:40:57,278

concerns about Division five.

:

00:40:57,278 --> 00:40:59,773

Like there was more enthusiasm and.

:

00:41:01,058 --> 00:41:05,738

Attempted knowledge or the thought that

the judge had knowledge about this name

:

00:41:05,738 --> 00:41:09,788

change than there was about the case with

a child that was seriously endangered.

:

00:41:09,998 --> 00:41:10,508

Seriously.

:

00:41:10,838 --> 00:41:10,928

Hugh: Yeah.

:

00:41:10,928 --> 00:41:14,768

I mean, and, and allegedly what

was really remarkable is attorneys

:

00:41:14,768 --> 00:41:18,068

that just we know personally aren't

necessarily fans of one another.

:

00:41:18,218 --> 00:41:18,308

Mm-hmm.

:

00:41:18,548 --> 00:41:21,098

That just, you see them walking

up on a case and everybody

:

00:41:21,098 --> 00:41:22,148

just shuts up and watches.

:

00:41:22,178 --> 00:41:23,318

'cause you know there's

gonna be fireworks.

:

00:41:23,318 --> 00:41:23,378

Yeah.

:

00:41:24,098 --> 00:41:28,778

You would see their collective experiences

when they turned around to walk back from

:

00:41:28,778 --> 00:41:31,238

the bench, they would be on the same side.

:

00:41:31,238 --> 00:41:32,618

Just like, oh, good lord.

:

00:41:32,648 --> 00:41:34,388

Uhhuh, what did we just encounter?

:

00:41:34,388 --> 00:41:36,428

Yeah, they had just gone

through something together.

:

00:41:37,298 --> 00:41:37,358

Yeah.

:

00:41:37,358 --> 00:41:39,368

And they weren't fighting anymore

'cause they were both just

:

00:41:39,368 --> 00:41:40,718

ran into the same brick wall.

:

00:41:40,748 --> 00:41:43,178

Christine: It was like bonding and

they were looking to both you and I.

:

00:41:43,178 --> 00:41:44,618

Like it was just for help.

:

00:41:44,618 --> 00:41:44,678

Yeah.

:

00:41:44,768 --> 00:41:47,258

And even attorneys that don't

necessarily love you or me, you

:

00:41:47,258 --> 00:41:48,518

know, they're just like, oh my gosh.

:

00:41:48,518 --> 00:41:51,728

Because it's, it's just hard to explain.

:

00:41:52,328 --> 00:41:58,478

Like how the lack of understanding

of just basic procedure and legal,

:

00:41:58,598 --> 00:41:59,528

Hugh: I remember doing that.

:

00:41:59,528 --> 00:42:04,628

I remember being in motion hour and just

thinking, you know, I would come in, I

:

00:42:04,628 --> 00:42:07,388

would expect that this is going to happen.

:

00:42:07,388 --> 00:42:08,468

This is gonna be the result.

:

00:42:08,468 --> 00:42:10,298

And then it would be the exact opposite.

:

00:42:10,328 --> 00:42:10,418

Yeah.

:

00:42:10,628 --> 00:42:13,178

And I would turn around and I

would look for someone in the

:

00:42:13,178 --> 00:42:16,928

crowd to sort of look to see what

their expression is like, help me.

:

00:42:17,078 --> 00:42:17,288

Yeah.

:

00:42:17,288 --> 00:42:20,048

Well the, or not necessarily

that it would just be like.

:

00:42:20,723 --> 00:42:22,733

Am I wrong or was that really bizarre?

:

00:42:22,733 --> 00:42:24,023

You could tell from their expression.

:

00:42:24,023 --> 00:42:27,173

They would communicate back to you just

like, oh damn, I didn't see that coming.

:

00:42:27,173 --> 00:42:28,703

And you would realize,

okay, I'm not crazy uhhuh.

:

00:42:28,973 --> 00:42:30,743

And so we, we saw a lot of that.

:

00:42:30,893 --> 00:42:31,643

Christine: That's so funny.

:

00:42:31,803 --> 00:42:33,213

And we went on our little tangent.

:

00:42:33,213 --> 00:42:36,813

We could break down all of these and

just, I could just in real time, like.

:

00:42:36,818 --> 00:42:37,508

Follow court.

:

00:42:37,718 --> 00:42:41,018

We're gonna get the tapes so then we

can start doing breakdowns of that.

:

00:42:41,018 --> 00:42:41,738

We have a plan.

:

00:42:41,738 --> 00:42:45,538

We know y'all love the breakdowns of

what's actually happening day to day.

:

00:42:45,718 --> 00:42:47,458

I think that's about a wrap for today.

:

00:42:47,458 --> 00:42:51,158

I do want I guess real quick,

your rose and thorn of the day,

:

00:42:51,158 --> 00:42:52,388

like your highlighting your low.

:

00:42:53,643 --> 00:42:54,303

Hugh: Oh, oh.

:

00:42:54,303 --> 00:42:56,613

The highlight was the docket

control in the first couple

:

00:42:56,613 --> 00:42:58,053

divisions, especially division two.

:

00:42:58,053 --> 00:43:00,003

That that made me very hopeful.

:

00:43:00,063 --> 00:43:00,303

Yeah.

:

00:43:00,333 --> 00:43:03,543

That there is a way to manage

the amount of cases that are

:

00:43:03,543 --> 00:43:04,953

coming through the family courts.

:

00:43:04,983 --> 00:43:05,193

Yeah.

:

00:43:05,283 --> 00:43:08,613

Hugh: And still get people in and out

and make decisions that keep families

:

00:43:08,613 --> 00:43:11,733

from going through the, you know, the,

the process uhhuh for years at a time.

:

00:43:11,943 --> 00:43:14,073

Christine: I would say my high too was.

:

00:43:14,278 --> 00:43:16,558

Probably Angela Johnson.

:

00:43:16,558 --> 00:43:17,098

Really?

:

00:43:17,338 --> 00:43:20,458

And Shelly, I thought, you know, it was

a little different, just like 'cause of

:

00:43:20,458 --> 00:43:25,048

the sad factor a little bit, or sympathy

factor, but both of them I was, you know,

:

00:43:25,108 --> 00:43:26,968

really impressed with how they handled it.

:

00:43:27,218 --> 00:43:28,238

Do you have a low,

:

00:43:29,618 --> 00:43:31,748

Hugh: I don't even know where to start it.

:

00:43:31,748 --> 00:43:32,198

Just

:

00:43:32,498 --> 00:43:33,338

Christine: 30 seconds or less?

:

00:43:33,338 --> 00:43:33,518

Four,

:

00:43:33,518 --> 00:43:33,938

Hugh: four.

:

00:43:33,938 --> 00:43:34,898

Four and five.

:

00:43:34,928 --> 00:43:35,438

Just.

:

00:43:36,098 --> 00:43:41,888

Seeing how the courts just can't,

they not, can't act as judges.

:

00:43:41,948 --> 00:43:42,038

Mm-hmm.

:

00:43:42,338 --> 00:43:43,928

With any kind of authority.

:

00:43:43,928 --> 00:43:43,988

Yeah.

:

00:43:44,018 --> 00:43:44,828

Or any kind.

:

00:43:44,828 --> 00:43:46,213

I mean, if you cannot.

:

00:43:46,958 --> 00:43:50,973

Be decisive and actually be the

one to determine what happens.

:

00:43:50,973 --> 00:43:51,293

Mm-hmm.

:

00:43:51,373 --> 00:43:52,658

What are you doing on the bench?

:

00:43:52,808 --> 00:43:54,548

Christine: Yeah, I'm split

two with four and five.

:

00:43:54,548 --> 00:43:59,258

I would say the thing about four is

that she's gonna get it wrong, or if

:

00:43:59,258 --> 00:44:02,108

she's overturned by the court of appeal,

she's gonna fight tooth and nail to

:

00:44:02,108 --> 00:44:06,878

keep doing it her way and not the way

that's ordered by the law in five.

:

00:44:07,283 --> 00:44:13,493

I have a legitimate fear that a something

bad is gonna happen because I even

:

00:44:13,493 --> 00:44:17,813

think in four, if there are really

serious allegations or something, then

:

00:44:17,813 --> 00:44:22,583

there is that little bit of a flip

with Ogden to take it more seriously

:

00:44:22,583 --> 00:44:26,723

like I, but in five, I am terrified

that something bad's gonna happen.

:

00:44:27,233 --> 00:44:28,013

Hugh: That's an awful thought.

:

00:44:28,343 --> 00:44:30,023

Christine: Yeah, and I

don't say that lightly.

:

00:44:30,053 --> 00:44:35,633

But to wrap up housekeeping stuff,

submit your stories to judge y.com

:

00:44:35,933 --> 00:44:38,273

if you send stuff to me at Kentucky.

:

00:44:38,273 --> 00:44:39,713

Christine, I have no problem.

:

00:44:39,713 --> 00:44:40,823

I love hearing from y'all.

:

00:44:40,823 --> 00:44:41,963

I cannot respond to everybody.

:

00:44:41,963 --> 00:44:45,833

I'm getting so much, but it doesn't

go into quene so there's no guarantee

:

00:44:45,833 --> 00:44:49,553

that it's getting investigated or

being properly allocated, getting

:

00:44:49,553 --> 00:44:50,963

hundreds and hundreds of messages.

:

00:44:50,963 --> 00:44:51,203

So.

:

00:44:51,478 --> 00:44:55,918

Judging the judges on

Instagram, judge y.com.

:

00:44:55,978 --> 00:44:57,478

Judgy on YouTube.

:

00:44:57,508 --> 00:44:59,548

And there's another social media platform.

:

00:44:59,548 --> 00:45:02,318

I'm forgetting TikTok you

got any housekeeping stuff?

:

00:45:03,008 --> 00:45:03,128

I don't.

:

00:45:03,128 --> 00:45:03,458

Awesome.

:

00:45:03,458 --> 00:45:04,238

See y'all soon.

:

00:45:04,388 --> 00:45:04,688

See ya.

:

00:45:05,688 --> 00:45:06,168

/ Next call.

:

00:45:06,168 --> 00:45:08,373

We need some justice, justice, justice.

:

00:45:08,808 --> 00:45:10,188

And I wanna ring bells in public.

:

00:45:10,548 --> 00:45:12,918

I wanna ring bes in public nor crowd.

:

00:45:12,978 --> 00:45:14,813

Yeah, but I To the fo Yeah.

:

00:45:15,013 --> 00:45:16,573

I To the fo Yeah.

:

00:45:16,653 --> 00:45:20,293

I to the fo fo teaser.

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About the Podcast

The JudgeMental Podcast
From the Creators of Judge-y
The JudgeMental Podcast features two attorneys, Hugh and Christine, who bring over three decades of combined litigation experience to the mic. Now venturing into a bold new initiative—"Judge-y", a website and soon-to-be app—they aim to give lawyers and litigants a platform to evaluate judges and promote accountability within the judiciary.

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Hugh Barrow