Episode 23

full
Published on:

25th Sep 2025

EP 23 Hiding the Ball

Episode 23: Hiding the Ball

In this episode of the Judgmental Podcast, Christine and Hugh dive deep into recent changes in family court transparency, focusing on the controversial new policies around motion hour recordings and pre-rulings. They discuss the impact of these changes on attorneys, litigants, and the public, raising concerns about access, accountability, and the growing lack of transparency in the judiciary.

Key topics include:


The end of emailing pre-rulings to attorneys and the challenges this creates for legal teams and clients.

The high cost and limited access to full motion hour recordings, and what this means for public oversight.

The broader implications for pro se litigants and the media, and the potential chilling effect on judicial accountability.

A candid discussion about the culture of protectionism within the judiciary, drawing parallels to issues in law enforcement.

Listener stories and national perspectives on family court reform, including problematic practices in custodial evaluations.

A spotlight on recent motions to disqualify certain evaluators, and the systemic issues these cases reveal.


Christine and Hugh also share personal experiences, listener feedback, and their ongoing commitment to advocating for transparency and fairness in the family court system.


Tune in for a passionate, insightful conversation that pulls back the curtain on the realities of family law and judicial reform.


Resources & Links:


Submit your stories: judge-y.com

Follow Christine: @KentuckyChristine on all platforms

Follow the show: @judge-y on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok

Transcript
Speaker:

You are listening to The Judgemental Podcast.

2

:

Speaker 2: We're Hugh and Christine, the

Minds Behind Judgy, the revolutionary app

3

:

that empowers you to judge the judges.

4

:

Speaker: It's pastime for

judicial accountability and

5

:

transparency within the courts.

6

:

Speaker 2: Prepare for sharp

insights, candid critiques, and

7

:

unshakable honesty from two lawyers

determined to save the system.

8

:

Speaker 3: We need some justice.

9

:

Justice, my fine justice.

10

:

And I wanna ring, be in public.

11

:

I wanna ring, be in public crowd.

12

:

Yeah.

13

:

Christine: All right.

14

:

Welcome back to the Judgmental podcast.

15

:

We already have started arguing about

things, so we're gonna start in the

16

:

middle, go back and then go back.

17

:

But we were talking about,

I watched motion hour today.

18

:

I watched two divisions.

19

:

First off, I'll let Hugh

say hi 'cause I'm a jackass.

20

:

Hugh: Howdy.

21

:

Christine: Sorry.

22

:

So I watched Division six, Christine Ward.

23

:

Ain't a lot of fascinating

things happen in her division.

24

:

And then I watched probably

40 minutes of Division 10.

25

:

And then I had to jump off because

personal reasons, LOLI just,

26

:

it's hard to watch sometimes

without getting too excitable.

27

:

Hugh: no, that's true.

28

:

And then in the times where I'm.

29

:

I go over to watch and or log in to

watch and, I'm hoping for some fireworks.

30

:

It never happens.

31

:

The times where I'm like,

okay, I can handle this.

32

:

I'm ready to go.

33

:

I wanna see something, you know?

34

:

Interesting.

35

:

It's just one of those boring motion

hours where nothing, nothing happens.

36

:

So that's the way it works.

37

:

Christine: That was kind of mean six,

but now she's got a whole new thing.

38

:

She's doing a speech

at the very beginning.

39

:

Of her motion hours, which I like.

40

:

Generally LOL.

41

:

But she starts off and she basically

just says, no one talk over anyone.

42

:

You can be held in contempt.

43

:

I'll let everyone have their moment.

44

:

But she said There will be no recording

and no live streaming and we will keep

45

:

the official record of this motion hour.

46

:

Which, you know, obviously

we had a judge that was.

47

:

Recording and that story's getting boring.

48

:

But on top of that, the bigger

thing is actually you cannot

49

:

request an entire motion hour

recording from the official record.

50

:

You have to do it piecemeal by each case.

51

:

Hugh: Yeah, and I think that's,

when you go to view a recording,

52

:

you can view the whole motion hour.

53

:

You can sit and you pick it out, but

if you actually get a copy of it,

54

:

they're gonna just give you your case.

55

:

, I personally think that makes sense.

56

:

Why would you be getting copies of

somebody else's unless you request it?

57

:

Specifically, if you wanna request

five cases for motion hour, you

58

:

can request those five cases, but

they're not gonna just piggyback, you

59

:

know, the other 70 cases in there.

60

:

I don't necessarily have

an issue with that, but.

61

:

Christine: Oh, I've got

a major issue with it.

62

:

I mean, it's a lack of transparency.

63

:

I think if the media wants to buy

a full motion hour, they should

64

:

be able to buy a full motion hour.

65

:

Like Christine Ward had 29

cases, I wanna say on today.

66

:

So, you know, I can't do math.

67

:

So what's 29?

68

:

Well, 25 times 25 is 500.

69

:

So if you wanted to request

her motion hour today, it would

70

:

cost you over $500 to do so.

71

:

Hugh: I mean, I, I get it.

72

:

What, what do, what do

the videos cost now?

73

:

It's been a while since I've requested

74

:

Christine: $25.

75

:

Hugh: Oh, so it's 25.

76

:

Okay.

77

:

Yeah.

78

:

I, I mean, I get that.

79

:

Or you could just go over and,

and, , currently you could go over

80

:

and just sit there and watch it.

81

:

Christine: Oh, yeah.

82

:

And watch it.

83

:

We could tell the public, Hey,

I sat down and watched it,

84

:

Hugh: but you can't record it.

85

:

You know?

86

:

I

87

:

Christine: mean, Frank, yeah.

88

:

Frankly, I think they should be free.

89

:

I mean, body cams are

through open records.

90

:

Hugh: Well, these might be through

open records as well, but there's

91

:

Christine: Nope,

92

:

Hugh: nope.

93

:

Christine: They're protected.

94

:

My understanding, and again, we

gotta deep dive into that more.

95

:

Sure.

96

:

But the judiciary has

different limitations on it.

97

:

But you know, I just think

that putting an un making.

98

:

Public records difficult to access.

99

:

You know, you and I may be able,

you know, and you, not me right now,

100

:

my twiz, I'm on a Twizzler budget,

but $500 for just one motion hour.

101

:

Imagine if you went and requested

just one day of court footage.

102

:

Sure.

103

:

We had 252 cases on,

help me with the math.

104

:

So that'd be $5,000.

105

:

Hugh: Yeah.

106

:

I mean, , and of course if you

decided to pony up the dough to watch

107

:

them all, it would be one of those

boring days where nothing happens.

108

:

That's what would happen.

109

:

I paid for this.

110

:

Oh, I feel for

111

:

Christine: us may be boring,

but the public would love it.

112

:

Yeah.

113

:

But it shouldn't, you shouldn't

have to pay $5,000 to get

114

:

one day of courtroom footage.

115

:

I mean, you just, I don't know

how they could justify that.

116

:

And also, I don't know why they

care they ran for this job.

117

:

Hugh: Yeah.

118

:

I'm not sure who's making that decision.

119

:

I mean, it used to be, I mean, I have,

I have older videos where I've requested

120

:

the motion hour to watch one case.

121

:

And I've gone back looking over things

just because I, I have those videos

122

:

from my old cases and I've looked for

things to see how rulings on specific

123

:

issues have changed over time or, or

how things were with other judges.

124

:

And I'll go back and.

125

:

, It, it's funny because it's, it's

frustrating 'cause I'll go back and

126

:

I'll have to dig through that video to

find when the case is called because

127

:

it'll be the entire motion hour and I

won't remember when my case was called.

128

:

So I'll have to sit there and go backwards

and forwards and, and skim through a

129

:

45 minute or an hour long video just to

find, you know, 30 seconds of argument.

130

:

But I know that, you know, back some

years ago, they would give you the

131

:

entire video and, and wouldn't bother

sorting out where your case was in that.

132

:

And I think that.

133

:

Part of that is because imagine if

you are sitting in that room and

134

:

someone requests a recording of one

case's section of the motion hour.

135

:

Generally the court will say,

okay, I'm calling this case versus

136

:

this case, and, and there will

be that prompt on what to record.

137

:

But so many of the times, as

you'll recall, both attorneys

138

:

aren't present 'cause one is still

tied up in another motion hour.

139

:

Yep.

140

:

And they will recall it at the end.

141

:

And when it gets recalled, the judge

might just say one of the names.

142

:

Or you know, we'll say, Mr.

143

:

So-and-so is Ms.

144

:

So-and-so here now, and we can,

we can address your case and

145

:

they'll walk up and address it.

146

:

Mm-hmm.

147

:

And they won't necessarily

say the name again.

148

:

And if you're sitting there in the

AV room trying to make a recording

149

:

of just that case, I bet that sucks.

150

:

I bet that happens all the time.

151

:

That is very hard for them to figure

out , which, you know, piece to record.

152

:

And it would be much more expedient just

to, to just have one recording of each

153

:

motion hour and, and let people see that.

154

:

Christine: Yeah, I mean, and it would be,

you know, obviously what is the verbiage

155

:

that I'm looking for in the interest of

the judiciary, judicial what's the word,

156

:

Hugh: economy, when

157

:

Christine: somebody said,

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

158

:

Oh my gosh, I'm tired now.

159

:

Hugh: I also think, I, I wonder if,

you know, if, if I, I go to a motion

160

:

hour as an attorney and I have four

cases on in that one motion hour.

161

:

Do I have to pay for four videos even

though they're having to actually

162

:

separate them out from one video?

163

:

So I gotta, I'll you that

pay a hundred dollars.

164

:

Yeah.

165

:

Now that's, that's a bit obnoxious.

166

:

Christine: Yeah.

167

:

And it's just like a waste of

time and it's just a control

168

:

thing as far as I'm concerned.

169

:

But this is a big change.

170

:

And I think I may have texted you about

this, but maybe I didn't, but so I guess

171

:

they decided that by they, I mean the

judges, they are, they have stopped

172

:

emailing pre rulings to attorneys.

173

:

Hugh: Yeah, you did.

174

:

You texted me about that.

175

:

I didn't, I did not know that.

176

:

I know that.

177

:

My old work address with my old firm.

178

:

I was on those lists and since I've

sort of retired from that position,

179

:

I, I haven't been getting them and

I just log in online to get them.

180

:

So I didn't realize

that that was a change.

181

:

And I'm, I'm kind of shocked that

people have not told me that.

182

:

That that has changed.

183

:

I think it

184

:

Christine: was recent.

185

:

I think it's like maybe

this week or something.

186

:

I've made a TikTok on how they'll email

'em to attorneys before they post 'em.

187

:

Which just shows, and we know they're

watching my tiktoks and we know they're

188

:

listening to this podcast, but this

is not the area to focus on, guys.

189

:

I mean, don't delay giving

everyone the pre-rolls.

190

:

That's not the answer.

191

:

Okay.

192

:

That's not what I was getting at.

193

:

And also, if I were the local

Louisville bar, I mean, I know.

194

:

That generally speaking, and

there's different camps, but if they

195

:

don't kick and scream about this.

196

:

I mean, we know they don't, some of

them, some of them, some of them not,

197

:

not even a large percentage stand up

for their clients, but they should

198

:

throw an absolute fit about this.

199

:

Hugh: Well, I mean, the first thing

I thought of is my staff would've

200

:

hated that the, my, my litigation

team, the paralegals, and the having

201

:

to go and hunt for things and go on

the Jefferson County family, you know,

202

:

the Jefferson Family Court website and

find it, and then bill for the time.

203

:

It costs the clients more

money and it doesn't prevent.

204

:

You know if, if you wanna hide these pre

rulings from certain people, you still

205

:

have to publish them on the website.

206

:

They can still be found.

207

:

It's not accomplishing that goal,

but it is costing people more money

208

:

because staff who are billing at an

hourly rate for family law cases are

209

:

now having to go online and download

and look through things when it

210

:

normally just showed up in the inbox.

211

:

Christine: Yeah.

212

:

And also, a lot of times

they don't post the pre-rolls

213

:

until after hours on a Friday.

214

:

Hugh: No, that's right.

215

:

Christine: So I mean, and so the attorneys

would've been able to call their clients,

216

:

and I mean, it should be the same for

everybody, is what I'm saying, but the

217

:

fact that they know how they're gonna rule

now, they're just making attorneys and

218

:

paralegals have to work on the weekends.

219

:

I mean, you know, I've always been a

fan, or not a fan, but a proponent or a

220

:

believer in us versus them type stuff.

221

:

But if the local bar allows this.

222

:

I mean really, I think this is just like,

again, one of the beginning of the end

223

:

steps where the judges are just locking

courtrooms and doing whatever they want.

224

:

Because I just don't know how much

accountability they have other

225

:

than you and I, which is like

embarrassing in and of itself.

226

:

Hugh: Well, it was, I mean, even

before they stopped emailing them,

227

:

assuming they, they, that's a policy

now and they are stopping for good.

228

:

What you mentioned about not publishing

the pre rulings until like Friday

229

:

afternoon, it's, it's, it's hard

to understate how much of a problem

230

:

that is for practitioners and how

expensive it is for the clients.

231

:

Because if you would, if the

judges read the motions and

232

:

issue pre, pre rulings early on.

233

:

People work things out.

234

:

If a case is to be called or signed

except for, and you did it before Friday.

235

:

Attorneys can touch base, they

can talk to their clients about

236

:

what's likely going to happen.

237

:

They can make a compromise and

they can keep the cases from

238

:

being called at motion hour.

239

:

They will follow up with the court

and say, we've resolved this.

240

:

We will issue an agreed order.

241

:

You don't have to go forward with it.

242

:

When you get it on Friday, the

attorneys aren't going to be able

243

:

to talk to their clients and then

touch base by the time business hours

244

:

are over and it's not gonna happen.

245

:

So then, yeah, you're

scrambling early Monday morning.

246

:

You may get it worked out.

247

:

You may not.

248

:

But I would imagine that you could

significantly cut down on the number of

249

:

cases which, you know, at the CLE that was

held with the LBA on family law issues.

250

:

One thing that kept being brought

up is trying to expeditiously

251

:

get through motion hour.

252

:

When you have so many cases on,

you could cut down on the number of

253

:

cases being argued, if the courts

would email out pre rulings, even

254

:

if they weren't emailing them.

255

:

If you published pre rulings.

256

:

In an orderly, timely way early on during

the week, or, you know, within maybe two

257

:

days of them being filed on a Tuesday.

258

:

If you get 'em out Thursday, the,

the, the parties have an entire day

259

:

to discuss what the pre ruling is.

260

:

Yeah.

261

:

And work things out, and they won't come

to court for a lot of those motions.

262

:

It would be one of the easiest fixes

to the log jam that is motion hour.

263

:

Christine: Nothing.

264

:

I mean, you cannot make this up.

265

:

It is not rocket science.

266

:

But the fact that, I mean, she said

it clear as day, which I wonder if her

267

:

little speech will show up on motion hour.

268

:

But if you were to request the tape, like,

I wonder how do you ever even get that

269

:

tape to show the public what her speech?

270

:

Like how do I request

Christine Ward's monologue?

271

:

You know, like what case

number is that filed under?

272

:

But I digress.

273

:

But the fact that they are having meetings

and the, the, this is their fucking

274

:

answer to us making a podcast is okay,

we'll just make everybody's life hell.

275

:

Where we've only been making

the pro se litigant's life.

276

:

Hell

277

:

Hugh: yeah.

278

:

I mean, may, maybe it has to

do with us in the podcast.

279

:

I just don't see how

it solves the problem.

280

:

If it is, I've,

281

:

Christine: it doesn't solve the problem.

282

:

It doesn't.

283

:

No.

284

:

And I mean, it

285

:

Hugh: just creates more.

286

:

Christine: Yes.

287

:

And she did this other thing,

which she obviously can't do.

288

:

And I have seen Brian Gatewood do

it, not to just pick on her, but,

289

:

and she actually held firm on this,

which she absolutely cannot do.

290

:

It's crazy when I tell you she's

now saying, even though, and she

291

:

says, even though we're not emailing

out the pre rulings anymore.

292

:

Oh,

293

:

Hugh: wait, so this was Judge Ward

announced this in her speech saying

294

:

they're not doing it anymore.

295

:

Christine: Yeah.

296

:

Hugh: Oh, okay.

297

:

I didn't catch that part.

298

:

Christine: That's what I'm

saying, like, like, like this

299

:

Hugh: is the official policy now.

300

:

Okay.

301

:

Yeah.

302

:

Got it.

303

:

Okay.

304

:

Christine: But, so I don't

know how to get that.

305

:

That's what I'm saying.

306

:

But then also she goes on to say,

well, even though we're not emailing

307

:

them out anymore to y'all, you still

have to go to the website and see.

308

:

So y'all, when you file a motion,

you'll get these pre-rolls.

309

:

It'll be to be called denied,

referred to mediation.

310

:

Under submission.

311

:

Okay?

312

:

And so if your case is not quote

unquote to be called, then the litigant

313

:

or the attorney can ask for it to

be called in front of the judge.

314

:

And you go to court and you

would say, I want my case called.

315

:

So now they have picked

these arbitrary times.

316

:

So Christine Ward, judge Ward's

motion hour is:

317

:

If you don't object and ask your

case for your case to be called at

318

:

10 30, she's not calling your case.

319

:

Hugh: Yeah, but she's not gonna

tell you what the pre rulings are.

320

:

You're gonna have to go

search for that yourself.

321

:

Christine: Yes.

322

:

Hugh: Now does that She's

323

:

Christine: not emailing them out.

324

:

No.

325

:

I mean this why work.

326

:

Work.

327

:

So is a policy only to attorneys

328

:

Hugh: and, and are, are pro se litigants

getting the pre rulings emailed to them?

329

:

Or do they have to go look as well?

330

:

No,

331

:

Christine: no one's getting 'em emailed.

332

:

Hugh: Yeah.

333

:

That's, that's pretty remarkable that

someone is supposed to know exactly

334

:

where to go and where to download if

they're not represented by an attorney

335

:

and the court isn't saying, here's

what's going to happen on your case.

336

:

Wow.

337

:

Christine: Right.

338

:

Well, yeah, but bigger picture.

339

:

I don't care what the hell

they put on a website.

340

:

You can't amend the family

court rules of procedure via,

341

:

Hey, this is how I feel today.

342

:

Hey, I want you, this is.

343

:

You know, we did a interview with Dr.

344

:

Christine Coachella, talking about

coercive control and just this narrative

345

:

of like, I've gotta have control and I'm

gonna make all these arbitrary rules.

346

:

But that's kind of how these judges

are behaving like now, in order to

347

:

have your case heard, even though

the rules say, motion hour starts

348

:

at this time, even though you'll get

something in the mail if you're pro

349

:

se that says, be at court at 1130.

350

:

They're gonna make a website that

says you gotta make an objection

351

:

an hour earlier than what the court

document you received says, yeah.

352

:

Hugh: Something just occurred to me while

you were, you know, you were talking about

353

:

these decisions and the impacts of them.

354

:

That makes me want to amend my statement

earlier about having to, you know, only

355

:

being able to get the video of your

particular argument in a motion hour and.

356

:

Here's motion

357

:

Christine: granted.

358

:

No, here,

359

:

Hugh: here's what I, yeah, yeah, yeah.

360

:

Motion to amend.

361

:

I, there have been at least two

times that just popped into my head

362

:

where I have found something that

was extremely impactful, extremely

363

:

improper, and impactful to my clients

that judges have done in court.

364

:

That were not, while my case was

being called, I mean, one we talked

365

:

about on the podcast many episodes

ago where a judge, while another

366

:

case was up in front of the court.

367

:

Pulled one of the attorneys aside on

the record and discussed my case while

368

:

I wasn't there and made a decision that

cost my client 10,000 plus per month.

369

:

And the only way that I ever found

that was being able to get the

370

:

motion hour video and watch it.

371

:

If I had just gotten the section about

my case, I would've never seen it.

372

:

Another was, yep.

373

:

Christine: Hold on one second.

374

:

Listeners, go back and

listen to episode one.

375

:

Hugh breaks that all down and

tells you all the players in that.

376

:

I'm so sorry to interrupt you.

377

:

Hugh: No, I'm, I'm glad

you remembered that.

378

:

The other is more recently a

judge that went off the record

379

:

for a moment in motion hour.

380

:

And my client, who wasn't my client at the

time, came in and said, what the judge.

381

:

Had said at motion hour, and he had

intentionally turned the record off

382

:

so it wouldn't be recorded, what

he said, but everyone was in the

383

:

courtroom, and so it was easy for

me to verify and ask people about

384

:

something that was completely improper.

385

:

It was giving legal advice to a client,

and the judge went off the record.

386

:

So that it wouldn't be recorded.

387

:

And I was able to get that video.

388

:

So I'm thinking this was a year

and a, a year and a half ago

389

:

maybe, so not that long ago.

390

:

I was able to get that motion hour

recording of the whole thing, and

391

:

you could see where he goes off

the record, then comes back in

392

:

and it's in this certain context

where, you know, he was talking.

393

:

I mean, it just, yep.

394

:

It wasn't that, oh,

I'm gonna take a break.

395

:

He just turns the record off for a

minute, keeps talking, then comes back.

396

:

So, you know, those things will.

397

:

Yeah, it'll be almost impossible to figure

out that those things are going on now

398

:

Christine: and they know it and they know,

and I, you know, this is just my gut.

399

:

This is just me.

400

:

Speculating.

401

:

I hadn't requested a motion hour

in a while, but I do think that

402

:

this change was because of us.

403

:

And I know, I think I cannot

understate, I'm gonna steal your word.

404

:

You're more articulate

than I am, Avi, LOL.

405

:

But how many meetings are happening?

406

:

How much discussion is happening about

us, about you, about i, about my tiktoks,

407

:

about stuff that we're saying with between

court administrators, judges litigants.

408

:

Court staff and these judges,

this is, we are a major,

409

:

major, major concern of theirs.

410

:

And there are a lot of conversations,

meetings, and clearly protocols that are

411

:

happening to literally try to prohibit

us from being able to continue to do

412

:

this which is obviously impossible.

413

:

You know what I mean?

414

:

Hugh: Yeah.

415

:

It's, oh.

416

:

Yeah, it's, it's really shocking

to me because the things we're

417

:

pointing out are not hard to fix.

418

:

So instead of addressing the problems,

let's instead just make it harder

419

:

for anyone to see us continue

doing the same old, same old that.

420

:

You know, people talk about, people talk

about regularly these, the things that

421

:

we talk about on this podcast are not

things that we're just nitpicking about.

422

:

These are regular parts of discussion

between attorneys that are practicing in

423

:

front of these judges, and they are very

regularly now things that are brought

424

:

up by the court of appeals that are,

that are done incorrectly, but instead

425

:

of actually taking steps to correct

those where, you know, it seems like.

426

:

The movement is pushing, you know,

the, the, the, the momentum is, is

427

:

toward getting rid of transparency.

428

:

So no one sees us doing these

things, or yep, let's find a

429

:

way to get around these things.

430

:

Let's, let's see what we can conveniently

do to waive these rights that have

431

:

now been pointed out that people

actually have under the Constitution.

432

:

So , that's very frustrating to me.

433

:

It's also frustrating that that would

be the reaction to a podcast, you

434

:

know, just a little podcast about.

435

:

Having things be transparent and

accountable, that the reaction is

436

:

to just shut down accountability.

437

:

. Christine: It's disgusting.

438

:

I mean, it's a common theme though,

and I've been saying for at least two

439

:

years, judges are the new cops and I

know that you know this, that you're,

440

:

you are always like, you speak so

highly of law enforcement and I have a

441

:

great admiration for law enforcement.

442

:

That being said.

443

:

There were a ton of problems within

law enforcement and the main, not the

444

:

main problem, but the kind of crux

why the bad actors didn't get weeded

445

:

out was because they were protected.

446

:

There was this like shield back

the blue instead of holding

447

:

other colleagues accountable.

448

:

And that is exactly what's

happening in the judiciary.

449

:

Yeah.

450

:

And it's been happening

451

:

Hugh: and I think that that's, I

mean, that differentiates us somewhat

452

:

from, from some contemporaries

in the judicial accountability.

453

:

Movement.

454

:

We're not here to talk about that.

455

:

We need to strip the judiciary

, of power and take away that

456

:

part , of, of our society.

457

:

We both have a lot of reverence for it

and understand the importance of it,

458

:

but at the same time, by understanding

the importance of it, we understand.

459

:

The power that it has over people's lives,

especially in the family court realm

460

:

where we both practiced and you Yeah.

461

:

, In the, the criminal law area where,

you know, basic freedoms are, are

462

:

being adjudicated all the time.

463

:

We know the power that the courts have

and, and want them operating correctly,

464

:

but we we're also not wanting to burn

the entire system down in order to do it.

465

:

No.

466

:

The systems we, the things that

we propose are very simple.

467

:

Christine: Yeah.

468

:

And just to be clear, like as far as

my beliefs, you know, and I'm speaking

469

:

for me, myself, Christine Miller,

but I don't wanna hear any of this.

470

:

Defund, the judiciary take

powers away from the judiciary.

471

:

Hard, no, hard stop that is

not even agreed remotely.

472

:

Close to what I'm saying.

473

:

Hugh: Yeah.

474

:

And we don't wanna pass laws that

say, we're going to say that this,

475

:

you have to rule these ways 'cause

we don't trust you , I, I know.

476

:

That when judges are making bad

calls and not following the rules,

477

:

that it becomes politicized.

478

:

And then you get laws that box the

judges in and give them, make it

479

:

impossible for them to craft a proper

outcome in certain circumstances.

480

:

'cause they will be too limited.

481

:

It.

482

:

, And we were at the point where

there are a lot of political

483

:

movements now that want to.

484

:

Severely constrained the

judiciary , and it's, you know,

485

:

it's being done at different levels.

486

:

Christine: Yeah.

487

:

And I mean, you know, I'm old

school in the sense, like studied

488

:

under Scalia, separation of powers.

489

:

I really think the legislature is

very limited on what they can do

490

:

when it comes to the judiciary.

491

:

And that was the point of it.

492

:

That was the point of it.

493

:

Well, it used to be

494

:

Hugh: the executive branch was also very

limited, but now it's , I think that

495

:

that's, that's changed fundamentally.

496

:

Christine: To be able to tell.

497

:

And I don't wanna go like down a, you

know, for me I'm a political, like

498

:

rabbit hole, but I don't think the

executive branch really can say much.

499

:

That's the whole point of

separation of power, right.

500

:

Oh, I listen, I, I

501

:

Hugh: agree with you that that's what,

you know, they shouldn't be able to, I,

502

:

I think that we are sort of moving in

that direction pretty quickly though.

503

:

Christine: Well, and I do think that

judges have to take some accountability

504

:

though for getting us here.

505

:

Yes, absolutely.

506

:

So like if you think about like law

enforcement in the:

507

:

kid, you know, you saw a cop, you would

wave at them, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.

508

:

You know what I'm saying?

509

:

Like, and some people still do, but it

was the bad actors within law enforcement

510

:

that caused a lot of people to have

distrust within the government entity.

511

:

And that's what's happening

with the judiciary.

512

:

They've lost a lot of trust based on the

actions of some and the quote unquote.

513

:

I don't wanna say cover up, but

look the other way or back your

514

:

brothers and sisters in a robe.

515

:

You know what I mean?

516

:

Hugh: Yeah.

517

:

And, and you know, it's, it's helpful

when they have friendly, people in

518

:

the media that can just continue to

pair it the same, you know, excuses

519

:

for why this decision was made

or that decision was made and no

520

:

one really looks into it further.

521

:

Or you can get stories ended

before, before it gets bad.

522

:

And that's good pr, you know,

lots of companies have that,

523

:

politicians have that, but.

524

:

It.

525

:

It isn't helping people know

these problems are happening.

526

:

They're having discussions about them

and not actually openly talking about

527

:

what happened and why it happened.

528

:

Mm-hmm.

529

:

Leads to more distrust and unfortunately

more distrust leads to more knee jerk

530

:

political reaction to it from lawmakers.

531

:

And then we get into this.

532

:

You know, this pendulum that swings back

toward limiting what can happen in the

533

:

courts, and you get a lot of bad outcomes

because judges are too limited to do

534

:

what makes sense in a specific case.

535

:

Christine: Yes.

536

:

And the judges they, they just

can't step out of the scene

537

:

like and see what's happening.

538

:

Maybe some of them can,

but they're just like.

539

:

All protecting each other, or a lot

of them are protecting each other.

540

:

It's very bizarre to see in real time.

541

:

It's also very bizarre.

542

:

You know, I was thinking about

this to kind of go on a tangent.

543

:

There are three things that have

happened that could have gone a very

544

:

different way for me being in this realm.

545

:

You know what I'm saying?

546

:

And it wasn't necessarily

just the bad act.

547

:

That I witnessed not having happened,

it would've been if another judge or

548

:

the judicial conduct commission had

taken actions, I would've stepped back.

549

:

Hugh: Oh, I agree.

550

:

I would've moved on with my

551

:

Christine: life.

552

:

Hugh: Yeah.

553

:

I, I agree.

554

:

There were things that I know were

political coverups that, you know,

555

:

I've, I've taken, when I've taken

actions against judges and it led me to

556

:

change the way that I approach things.

557

:

It led me, mm-hmm.

558

:

The to change the way that I address

things in court, and it completely

559

:

shattered my trust in the system.

560

:

When, you know, to think that there was

going to be some accountability when

561

:

a judge just, you know, blatantly ex

parte a case and, and did, did favors

562

:

for, you know, for someone that they're

close with, things that would ordinarily.

563

:

And should, by rule, not only

disqualify the judge, but lead

564

:

to some pretty severe penalties.

565

:

But when that gets, you know, just

swept under the rug and nothing is done

566

:

about it, and the case just gets passed

off to another judge and they're, you

567

:

know, they're protected, you know,

things get, you know, the, the message

568

:

is, yeah, we'll protect you if you do

these things, so don't worry about it.

569

:

Christine: And the coverup is

always worse than the crime.

570

:

And I think that's to go back to like

Orange County, I really just saw, you

571

:

know, and I, I wanna be careful with

how I say this, and I'm not trying

572

:

in any way to come at anyone, but.

573

:

There are a lot of people within

the reform family court movement or

574

:

abolished family court movement that

think it's a cult, that think it's a

575

:

conspiracy that everyone's involved

in to take away their children.

576

:

That's not what I've seen at all.

577

:

But I mean, how could they?

578

:

Put yourself in their shoes where

they've lost their children.

579

:

They didn't meet with their attorney,

they don't have a video recording

580

:

of losing their fucking children.

581

:

And then there's, and they

may not have even had a

582

:

Hugh: hearing.

583

:

They may not have even been

there when it happened.

584

:

Christine: Yeah.

585

:

And have a lien put on their

house for an from an attorney.

586

:

This is happening in other states

where GAL are putting liens on like

587

:

parents' homes for bills from gals.

588

:

You know, it would almost

like, how could they not think?

589

:

It's this whole conspiracy to some degree.

590

:

Yeah.

591

:

I'm not trying to encourage it,

but I'm just saying, guys, step

592

:

out of this and look at this with

a heart or with eyes or a brain.

593

:

If you don't have a heart,

just a fucking brain.

594

:

Hugh: No, no, I agree.

595

:

And I, I kind of, that, that was

eyeopening to me when you the most

596

:

impactful thing that I heard outside

of how hard it was for people to,

597

:

or how impossible it was for people

to get records of their own case.

598

:

Was that attorneys were not speaking

to and preparing their clients and

599

:

talking to them about the system.

600

:

So when you were received so poorly by

certain people, just because you were an

601

:

attorney before, even, you know, taking

into account what your point of view is,

602

:

where you stand on anything, but, oh,

you're an attorney, so you must be part of

603

:

the system, so you're part of the problem.

604

:

I, I never understood.

605

:

That at all because it's always,

from my point of view, being the

606

:

attorneys that have been fighting

these problems within the system.

607

:

But if someone has, has had an attorney

that's charged them six figures, hasn't

608

:

prepared them, hasn't talked to them,

never really fully explained what's

609

:

happening in the system and just gone

along with it, I, that was eyeopening.

610

:

I can now understand how , we get

lumped into that, that process.

611

:

I, I'd like to reiterate

what you said that is.

612

:

Definitely not the case, and

that is not what I have seen.

613

:

Now have I seen attorneys that work

within sort of the system and go

614

:

along with whatever's going on?

615

:

Sure.

616

:

But again, it's like the, you know,

there, there are bad actors, there

617

:

are people that give us all a bad name

and that's the case with any industry.

618

:

With any profession.

619

:

There are people that, but by and

large the attorneys, , I knew.

620

:

The, the problems that we talk

about on this podcast mostly were

621

:

problems that were complained about.

622

:

By and large by everybody that

I, that I resp at least, that

623

:

I pr practice regularly with.

624

:

We all talked about it.

625

:

Well,

626

:

Christine: but that I noticed, and

I, I agree with you, but I'm noticing

627

:

this duality with lawyers, right?

628

:

Because the not being able to

have video cameras in court,

629

:

the not being able to get acts.

630

:

To your records, first off,

that is happening in Louisville.

631

:

If you think about all dependency,

neglect, and abuse actions, they

632

:

issued an order that said you have

to get a court order to get your

633

:

file unless you're an attorney.

634

:

So they're being denied the

records, and those are cases

635

:

where you lose your kid first off.

636

:

But two, it doesn't start with,

Hey, we've taken all your rights.

637

:

It starts with.

638

:

Hey, we had happy hour last week.

639

:

Will you waive Adair versus Berton?

640

:

That's how it fucking starts.

641

:

And the amount of attorneys that are

Waiv Adair versus Berton, or engaging

642

:

in conversations about waiving Adair

versus Berton, that's the beginning.

643

:

That is the beginning of locked

court rooms and the same GAL and FOCs

644

:

that don't meet with the kids that.

645

:

For the first time in their life have

one I Ulta of power and are taking

646

:

people's children without meeting them.

647

:

I mean, you know, Hugh, it's like I,

and I know you feel the same way I do

648

:

about that scenario, but in what world?

649

:

How do we as attorneys live

and just look the other way?

650

:

'cause it's not quite yet affecting us.

651

:

Hugh: You know how I

know you're an attorney?

652

:

Yeah.

653

:

And you said I iolta instead of iota.,

654

:

I type, , I don't use the word

iota because every time I am

655

:

typing it, I say I ota 'cause it

is an attorney you're so used to.

656

:

For, for anyone that doesn't know

an iota as an account where you

657

:

keep client money in trust, it's a

regulated bank account where you have

658

:

to keep money that's in retainer.

659

:

But I do the exact same thing

in anything that I type.

660

:

I always type iolta instead of ia.

661

:

Christine: Also Bullit county

education and getting passionate here.

662

:

Hugh: Well, no, no, no.

663

:

I, I completely get it.

664

:

I recognized it just

'cause I do the same thing.

665

:

Yeah, I mean, that's a really good

point about the producing neglect

666

:

and abuse cases because a lot of the

people that I represented that had

667

:

their, that had rights taken away from

them were not the biological parents.

668

:

They were the people that were the

temporary custodians that stepped

669

:

in and the temporary custodians

as of right now in the law.

670

:

Are not entitled to an attorney, even

though they may lose custody rights

671

:

that have been granted to them.

672

:

Present custody rights to children.

673

:

They are not entitled to have

a court appointed attorney if

674

:

they can't get a private one.

675

:

, As the legal parents that are,

sorry, biological parents, legal,

676

:

adopted parents, whatever, they,

they have a right to an attorney.

677

:

So when.

678

:

A temporary custodian.

679

:

I mean, there are a lot more problems

with temporary custodians 'cause they're

680

:

not being allowed to intervene in

the case to even defend their rights.

681

:

But when they can't get copies of

files, unless they have a private

682

:

attorney that they've paid for, and

there may have been a proceeding.

683

:

And, and an order that was never

sent to them because they're

684

:

not officially in a party.

685

:

They may not have been in attendance.

686

:

And all of a sudden a child that's lived

with 'em for multiple years uninterrupted

687

:

is taken from them and they don't have any

right whatsoever to go get a copy of it.

688

:

You're right.

689

:

Yep.

690

:

That's

691

:

Christine: it's the beginning.

692

:

Yeah.

693

:

It's

694

:

Hugh: really bad.

695

:

And I, I didn't see that in my practice

'cause I was representing people.

696

:

Exactly.

697

:

So I got go get this stuff.

698

:

Oh man.

699

:

I would say , a great majority of

people in that circumstances don't

700

:

have a private attorney, and they're

not, they don't have a court appointed

701

:

attorney and they don't get to go see

the file and they could lose everything

702

:

and not even know what's going on.

703

:

Christine: Yeah.

704

:

I mean, and so I think

that, you know, coming back.

705

:

There was a lot happening, but

you know, just in my break too.

706

:

But it was one of those, it was

a gut punch being out there in

707

:

Orange County and seeing that.

708

:

And then we have messages

come to New Jersey.

709

:

Come to New York.

710

:

Please help us.

711

:

Help us.

712

:

I mean, it is.

713

:

If I open my social media, I mean,

I don't even know, hundreds of

714

:

messages a day from different arenas.

715

:

Just saying, help you think

it's bad here, come here.

716

:

You think it's bad there?

717

:

Come here.

718

:

Yeah.

719

:

And I'm quite concern that's

like the majority of what

720

:

Hugh: we get.

721

:

Yeah.

722

:

We get, we get tons of those messages.

723

:

Oh, oh, you, you guys mentioned that.

724

:

It's so much worse here.

725

:

Here's what happens here.

726

:

And it's, yeah.

727

:

Attorneys you know, litigants people

from, from all parts of, well, not judges.

728

:

So far, I don't believe, but from all,

all parts of family court are reaching

729

:

out to talk about how bad things are now.

730

:

We've had former judges that have

talked about how bad things are.

731

:

Christine: Two.

732

:

Yeah.

733

:

And there's judge Anthony

outta California, he has a

734

:

whole platform that he runs.

735

:

There's another judge on my LinkedIn

that's a former judge that's

736

:

like what the hello is going on.

737

:

Yeah.

738

:

Hugh: Oh, okay.

739

:

Yep.

740

:

Christine: And just to kind of, we

need to do more of a deep dive and

741

:

just look at, 'cause you know, it's

like anything when it comes to, I don't

742

:

wanna use a right that's com like.

743

:

What's the word?

744

:

Controversial, but like, talk about

like even human rights or just like, you

745

:

know, you're like Fifth Amendment right.

746

:

To imminent domain.

747

:

Like when they start coming for

it, they don't just take it.

748

:

You know what I mean?

749

:

It starts small and incrementally.

750

:

I don't really think imminent

domain is like a con.

751

:

It's controversial, but it's

not like a polarizing thing.

752

:

No, that's right.

753

:

You know, most people.

754

:

Yeah.

755

:

Believe government, you can't

buy my property lower than

756

:

property, you know, whatever.

757

:

But oh, it's,

758

:

Hugh: it's controversial.

759

:

If you're the one that, you know,

you're being told that you gotta

760

:

get outta your own house and here's

what you're being offered and to,

761

:

you know, sorry, that's, that's all.

762

:

Yeah.

763

:

Christine: For me, I'm like,

government, you can't buy it ever.

764

:

But that's, I mean, you know, I

can't even live in a neighborhood

765

:

with a homeowner's association.

766

:

That's how much I don't like to be

told what to do by the man the same

767

:

way which is my own personal problem,

768

:

Hugh: yep, agreed.

769

:

Christine: So, all

right, y'all, judge-y.com

770

:

Kentucky, Christine, on all platforms

for me, judgy on all platforms.

771

:

YouTube, Instagram,

TikTok, and thank you guys.

772

:

Hugh: Thanks.

773

:

Peace.

774

:

Speaker 4: Next call.

775

:

We need some

776

:

Speaker 5: justice, justice, justice.

777

:

And I wanna ring bells in public.

778

:

I wanna ring bes in public nor crowd.

779

:

Yeah, but I To the fo Yeah.

780

:

I To the fo Yeah.

781

:

Speaker 6: I to the fo fo

782

:

teaser.

Next Episode All Episodes Previous Episode

Listen for free

Show artwork for The JudgeMental Podcast

About the Podcast

The JudgeMental Podcast
From the Creators of Judge-y
The JudgeMental Podcast features two attorneys, Hugh and Christine, who bring over three decades of combined litigation experience to the mic. Now venturing into a bold new initiative—"Judge-y", a website and soon-to-be app—they aim to give lawyers and litigants a platform to evaluate judges and promote accountability within the judiciary.

About your host

Profile picture for Hugh Barrow

Hugh Barrow